Lord of the Bass: The Two Towers - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1845 Old 03-05-2007, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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i dunno....that's what I'm trying to figure out as well. All I can point to right now is room losses, driver issues, or combination of both.
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post #632 of 1845 Old 03-05-2007, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

b) EQ and L/T
With the large volume and low tuning point, this thing is basically behaving like a sealed sub until the point that the port starts to work close to Fb. If you look at the graphs again, dips and notches aside, there is definitely this trend.

Look at sub1, from seating position:

I'm sorry but it doesn't look allright. Even though it's tuned near 10 Hz, the output shouldn't drop like a rock below 20 Hz. That frequency response looks like the Fb would be around 25 Hz. Also your room may not be the best possible one but it can't be that bad. And even then the NF measurement should look much flatter all the way down to 10 Hz.

Are you sure your measuring system is okay? Recording the correct input, not your laptop's built-in mic by accident?

Do you still have your old RS meter? Maybe try that just for the kicks?
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post #633 of 1845 Old 03-05-2007, 04:37 PM
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Sherv,

I don't know, that is exactly the way my IB behaved about 20 dB down at 10 hz. I jacked the crap out of it with the Rane and she is flat now. I made a table of what the Rat Shack meter should read, played tone files, twiddled knobs going back and forth until all the readings were on for 10 to 50 hz. A lot of tweakadoodling and well worth it. I will let the Denon perform the EQ surgery on the mains and surrounds. It does a yeomans job with that.

When you are done, your subwoofer IQ will have been raised a good ten points. And you will be the LORD OF BASS

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post #634 of 1845 Old 03-05-2007, 04:53 PM
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Have you checked the actual signal output? Try sending a series of tones though the system and read the pre-amp voltage in Hz incremements. See if the output tracks with these graphs...

Jim
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post #635 of 1845 Old 03-05-2007, 04:59 PM
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Hey, Ssab,

Nice job hiding those towers...where are they in the pics anyway?

What frequency do you have your sweep starting at? Can you do a loop back measurement showing the card's response? That may show a roll off that is somewhere else in the chain with the mic eliminated.

Bosso
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post #636 of 1845 Old 03-05-2007, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjw View Post

Have you checked the actual signal output? Try sending a series of tones though the system and read the pre-amp voltage in Hz incremements. See if the output tracks with these graphs...

Yeah, that's a good idea. You can route RoomEQ through your processor just like if you were measuring your soundcard - unplug the subwoofer out cable from your processor that's going into your K2 and attach it to audio in on the soundcard.
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post #637 of 1845 Old 03-05-2007, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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great ideas fellas!! keep' m coming.

I was planning on trying the loopback from AVP back to soundcard anyways, but the test tunes is also a good idea.

bosso, i started the sweeps at 10hz from REW
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post #638 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 04:38 AM - Thread Starter
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FINALLY some semi good news!

Last nite I had a couple of minutes, and toyed with the gain on both AVA18 and AV15, and although I didn't have time to set the SPL meter up or anything, I did my best ear matching. Sure enough, the bash amp had a much higher sensitivity and thus, i pumped the crown to max, and increased the signal to the sub by 1.5dB in the processor.

NOW it sounds like it should...it is as punchy and goes deeper than the AV15, at least for the time I played last nite.

which brings to think that there HAS to be something wrong with my measuring setup, either a filter or some wierd electronic rolloff in the chain, or perhaps the mic calibration, or even sound card.
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post #639 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 04:41 AM
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Sweet . Glad to hear that. After you check your measuring equipment lets get some real numbers on these bad boys.

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post #640 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 04:52 AM
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Very good news! The problem I see is the gain on the Crown shouldn't be at max. I think by adding something like a Cleanbox in the chain will solve the signal problem and lower the gain. But at least you know the subs are performing better.

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post #641 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 05:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitod View Post

Very good news! The problem I see is the gain on the Crown shouldn't be at max. I think by adding something like a Cleanbox in the chain will solve the signal problem and lower the gain. But at least you know the subs are performing better.

a cleanbox will certainly help, but one thing to remember is that the DEQ has a good 10dB of gain in it as well, so once i use it, I can drop the Crown's gain to 75% again.

i'm nowhere near out of the woods, as last nite was just a quick 5 min thing, and who knows, when I plop a movie in, it may still sound less visceral than the AV15. but at least I know it is there.
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post #642 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

a cleanbox will certainly help, but one thing to remember is that the DEQ has a good 10dB of gain in it as well, so once i use it, I can drop the Crown's gain to 75% again.

i'm nowhere near out of the woods, as last nite was just a quick 5 min thing, and who knows, when I plop a movie in, it may still sound less visceral than the AV15. but at least I know it is there.

Personally, I try to take as many of the attenuation circuits (or 'gain knobs' as they are commonly mislabeled these days) out of the picture. If you have enough control at the AVR I would max the crown amp 'gain' knobs...now all of your leveling control is in the hands of the AVR. Just make sure that your AVR/Pre/Pro is not near the extremes of its LFE leveling range, as things can become non-linear quite quickly at the min/max positions....I strive to stay within the -7 to +7 range (-10 to +10 Full Range).

On my IB setup I have it set as follows:

AVR LFE level (-5) -> SMS-1 (set to unity gain at 15) -> Behringer EP (both knobs to max, ie minimum resistance)

If I want to make any fine tuning adjustments for certain movies I have plenty of trim left on the AVR to bump it up and run the IB hot.

Good luck...sounds like you are on your way to getting this ironed out.

-patrick
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post #643 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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oh absolutely Patrick....dont worry, I'm gonna leave some play and reduce the gain stages. This was just a test to see what it does.
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post #644 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 06:21 AM
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The MKV earball is still a pretty good device to use when sound is involved. And all of these sparky parts in the path are sometimes a puzzle. I do a sweep with a signal generator directly into the amp to start off just so I have some feeling for what I should be seeing on a meter once the sparky parts in between are connected.

I told you it would work out. Any enclosure as big as you have built should provide BASS.

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post #645 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

a cleanbox will certainly help, but one thing to remember is that the DEQ has a good 10dB of gain in it as well, so once i use it, I can drop the Crown's gain to 75% again.

Yo, buddy! YOU should realize that those are not 'gain' controls on the Crown amp. They are attenuators. In pro sytems I would set the attenuators at full on so that they cannot be turned up and ruin speakers with too much signal. At your house, the children will have lots of fun turning the pretty knobs up and down on the amp. If it is set to full on, they will not be able to hurt anything cause they can't turn it up.

That is very good news that by increasing the AVP by only +1.5 db you are starting to hear the beginnings of what you expected when you designed them on paper.
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post #646 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

oh absolutely Patrick....dont worry, I'm gonna leave some play and reduce the gain stages. This was just a test to see what it does.

Sherv, You need to focus...!
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post #647 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 07:54 AM
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Rule No 1 in measuring: Test the tester.

Gain does matter if you don't have enough of it to match the level of the mains or the other sub being tested. It sounds like that was one of a many problems. Since you're using the K2 on a sub, the gain at max won't be a practical problem. I'd leave it there, set the pre to 0dB on the sub channel and start adjusting with the DEQ.

If you can slide the presumed good sub out to the middle of the room or other more open area you should be able to get a better looking measurement with the mic in between the baseplate and bottom cap.

Most of the measurements posted wouldn't seem so crazy if the scale was about 1/2 what it is. It's pretty rare for a room to impart quite that much on the response. A 20dB window is plenty common, but as you've seen, you should certainly do more checking against your known design with the AV15 and even measuring your B&W's to make sure what you are seeing makes sense.

A sub with a driver on the end of a ~70" long dimension will have a potential for a response irregularity in the upper 40s, but hopefully the port on that oppposing face helps counteract that a bit. A confident near field measurement should give a good indication if there is anything going on.

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post #648 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post

Gain does matter if you don't have enough of it to match the level of the mains or the other sub being tested.

I don't know if you are just making a general statement, but that didn't seem to be an issue in this case:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherv View Post

I calibrated (level matched) the system again, and ran a few "demo" discs

Also, his in room sweeps were being done at pretty high levels (for sweeps).

Upping the gain from a calibrated point of reference will make the bass more pronounced of course (again I'm +3db and Jon is +6db), and that can be fine adjusted by ear later on, but the FR still looks to be the main issue.

Chuck - that's a very smart idea about the kids and the gain
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post #649 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 01:55 PM
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Quote:


Sure enough, the bash amp had a much higher sensitivity and thus, i pumped the crown to max, and increased the signal to the sub by 1.5dB in the processor.

Not to beat a dead horse Sherv, but once you get used to a pro amp, you'll set it at full from the start and calibrate from there.. no matter what the sub. Glad to see your making some headway. very cool

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post #650 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 04:43 PM
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Have you done any near field measurements of the port as well?You would need to combine it's output with near field response of the driver to get a true indication of extension without the rooms effect.
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post #651 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 05:14 PM
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[quote=
A sub with a driver on the end of a ~70" long dimension will have a potential for a response irregularity in the upper 40s, but hopefully the port on that oppposing face helps counteract that a bit. A confident near field measurement should give a good indication if there is anything going on.[/QUOTE]

Mark, could you elaborate on this a little more? What irregularities might occur and why?
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post #652 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

I don't know if you are just making a general statement, but that didn't seem to be an issue in this case:

Also, his in room sweeps were being done at pretty high levels (for sweeps).

Steve, although I did level match everything, keep in mind that I forgot that the gain knob on the bash amp was the item I adjusted when I wanted that extra headroom, and not the AVR (easier to just turn the knob for me).

so, when I level matched the pro amp, it was on par at 75dB, whereas I usually go 6dB hotter....ergo the issue. I just measured the current settings on the SPL (both av15 and ava18) and they both now match (+7dB on pro, +6dB on bash)....and now it shows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs4life View Post

Have you done any near field measurements of the port as well?You would need to combine it's output with near field response of the driver to get a true indication of extension without the rooms effect.

this is on the agenda

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Not to beat a dead horse Sherv, but once you get used to a pro amp, you'll set it at full from the start and calibrate from there.. no matter what the sub. Glad to see your making some headway. very cool

Yeah...been dicking with Bash amps for the past 2 years, and only been messing with the QSC for an amp comparo over a year ago, so I forgot how the gains operate so differently in each case. ..... DOH!
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post #653 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 06:38 PM
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I'm not Mark, but...
Quote:


Mark, could you elaborate on this a little more? What irregularities might occur and why?

The height of the enclosure will produce a resonance(standing wave) at a little under 50hz. What this means is that the system will tend to have a pronounced output and a possible slight ringing at that frequency.

It's like when you take a glass Coke bottle and blow over the top, the frequency at which it rings out is dependant on how much Coke is in the bottle. If there is a lot of Coke you have a smaller chamber and the tone is pretty high. Now drink all of it and try again. The chamber is greater and the tone is lower. With a sub this tall the resonance can creep into the subs operational band, and could become a problem if you do not take measures to negate it.

Now as the owner of +70" sonosubs I can say that it isn't a big deal as long as you line the interior, and is virtually a non-issue with a little more foam on the under side of the top cap. It is a non-issue with a lot of foam though.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: The bit about the port helping, was there because the port reduces the area of the top plate which will also reduce the resonances effects. You can't bounce a sound wave off a hole.
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post #654 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

I'm not Mark, but... The height of the enclosure will produce a resonance(standing wave) at a little under 50hz. What this means is that the system will tend to have a pronounced output and a possible slight ringing at that frequency.

It's like when you take a glass Coke bottle and blow over the top, the frequency at which it rings out is dependant on how much Coke is in the bottle. If there is a lot of Coke you have a smaller chamber and the tone is pretty high. Now drink all of it and try again. The chamber is greater and the tone is lower. With a sub this tall the resonance can creep into the subs operational band, and could become a problem if you do not take measures to negate it.

Now as the owner of +70" sonosubs I can say that it isn't a big deal as long as you line the interior, and is virtually a non-issue with a little more foam on the under side of the top cap. It is a non-issue with a lot of foam though.

Hope this helps.


EDIT: The bit about the port helping, was there because the port reduces the area of the top plate which will also reduce the resonances effects. You can't bounce a sound wave off a hole.

I thought this was only a problem when the length of the enclosure is equal to one wavelength and then the sine wave will either cancel or sum once it reflects off of the end of the enclosure?

According to my calcs, at just under 50 Hz the wavelength is at a quarter.
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post #655 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 08:46 PM
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It's an issue on paper but not in the real world, I have yet to see it show up in any measurements of large sonosubs.
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post #656 of 1845 Old 03-06-2007, 11:20 PM
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Looks like the next project is going to be bass traps.

Well, there go the family jewels.

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post #657 of 1845 Old 03-07-2007, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nichol1997 View Post

I thought this was only a problem when the length of the enclosure is equal to one wavelength and then the sine wave will either cancel or sum once it reflects off of the end of the enclosure?

According to my calcs, at just under 50 Hz the wavelength is at a quarter.

hmm....something is off there.

for example, A 47 Hz wavelength would be 288 inches long. Its half wavelength would be 144 inches. Its QUARTER wavelength would be 72 inches long. If that is
affecting your sonotubes, then all sonotubes are doomed to crazy cancellation
all over the place.
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post #658 of 1845 Old 03-07-2007, 05:44 AM
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You guys like to make mountains out of mole hills.

1)Yes, the quarter wave is the problem. You have to research air columns and musical instrument theory to find the why.

2)Having assembled mine with no lining, I can say yes they did ring audibly at 45hz.

3)Adding the batting to the tube sides left only a hint of ringing at 45hz

4)Adding some foam and batting to the top cap did the trick.

As long as you add proper dampening you will be fine. This does not mean the problem isn't there. Did you all miss this line?
Quote:


Now as the owner of +70" sonosubs I can say that it isn't a big deal as long as you line the interior, and is virtually a non-issue with a little more foam on the under side of the top cap. It is a non-issue with a lot of foam though

The guy asked a question, and I answered it. I am sorry you guy don't like the answers sometimes.
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post #659 of 1845 Old 03-07-2007, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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i'm with you Soho! sometimes we think we know everything, and forget to take in what others have experienced!

no problems here.
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post #660 of 1845 Old 03-07-2007, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

You guys like to make mountains out of mole hills.

1)Yes, the quarter wave is the problem. You have to research air columns and musical instrument theory to find the why.

2)Having assembled mine with no lining, I can say yes they did ring audibly at 45hz.

3)Adding the batting to the tube sides left only a hint of ringing at 45hz

4)Adding some foam and batting to the top cap did the trick.

As long as you add proper dampening you will be fine. This does not mean the problem isn't there. Did you all miss this line?

The guy asked a question, and I answered it. I am sorry you guy don't like the answers sometimes.

Ok, that explains a lot. When I first built them there was an audible ringing that I had (not sure if it was at 45 Hz or not because I never measured it). I then lined the tube with polyfill and that took care of the ringing problem.
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