Lord of the Bass: The Two Towers - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1845 Old 01-01-2007, 02:07 PM
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you two boys are having way too much fun at my expense! I wanted to say I'm gonna have the last laugh, but as always, the chuckster pulled another fast one on me thanks to Stevenn....gaddam IB oh well....i can't keep up with the old dude anymore...just can't.

Being we have a inside look at the Chuckster's makeup, I think it wise to not even entertain the idea of keeping up, but none the same!.. You keep'm busy on your end with your Two Tower project and I'll do what I can on my end to bring him down. He'll just plainly wear himself out!

Seriously> Sherv your going to be sitting so good bass wise! I mean who do you know that has not one but two 18" driver LLT towers? I guess br C has talked about it, but will it become a reality, I don't know? Anyway, looking forward to the next phase, even though all the hard work is over.

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post #182 of 1845 Old 01-01-2007, 02:22 PM
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Yeah man....I am definitely looking forward to these two subs being done and sitting in your living room.
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post #183 of 1845 Old 01-01-2007, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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well I appreciate that guys...hopefully we can make some progress this week with some more wood work. I leave sunday to CES, and will be back next week. I plan on spending every saturday, and perhaps a couple of weeknites here and there starting mid-january, so we can get these guys done in a decent timeframe.

unfortunately, with my schedule, and with Chuck's busy time now, it is hard to coordinate meeting times

but it will get done fellas...I promise. I can't wait to start the measurements either....hehe.
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post #184 of 1845 Old 01-01-2007, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm still not totally committed to the tuning point of these towers, as I'm still debating if the drop in headroom (albeit slight) in the 20-30hz region is worth the gain between 8-12hz. Given my listening habits, and the fact that I will have two of them, i'm leaning towards a 11.4hz tune, although 12.4 is also in the running.

here are the theoretical numbers, with the 800W/ch of the Crown K2:

Fb------(10hz)------(20hz)------(30hz)
13.4--- 107.3 ----- 117.1 ------ 118.0 dB
12.4--- 108.9 ----- 116.4 ------ 117.7 dB
11.4--- 110.0 ----- 115.8 ------ 117.4 dB

the cross over point is around 12.3 hz, which comes in at around 113.2 dB. ABove 30hz, they are pretty much a wash.

another point of consideration is that the lower tune pushes the cone Displacement further down as it approaches Xmax. The only real negative I see with going lower and lower, is that I will be closer to Xmax before tuning freq. Example, with an 11.4hz tuning point, we will approach 24.2mm at 16.6hz, whereas with a 12.4hz we will approach 23.2mm at 18.5hz.



thus, safety first tells me to lean towards 12.4 to get some of the headroom back (compared to 13.4) for the 20-30hz region, but there are a lot of pros in going lower to 11.4hz, specially with 2 of them! I mean, we are talking 116.4 dB at 20hz for one, so a nice +6dB on the second one, and this aint too shabby!
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post #185 of 1845 Old 01-01-2007, 07:19 PM
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Man, I really think that "headroom" in the 20-30Hz range with two of these in your particular room is the last thing you should be worrying about.
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post #186 of 1845 Old 01-02-2007, 06:32 AM
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I know you will be happy once it is all together. I am looking forward to seeing what these can really do and not just what the computer says it can do. With two of them, is over driving really an issue? I mean 116db with one is pretty strong me thinks.

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post #187 of 1845 Old 01-02-2007, 07:23 AM
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ssabie, check your math. It's +6db from acoustic-coupling when doubling drivers and doubling power (by using separate amp channels 800x800w.)

100Hz has an 11.3 foot wavelength, and 10Hz would have a 113 foot wavelength. As long as you are within a wavelength you will get the full gain.

The room will of course screw with things, but that is always a problem. I had to reverse the phase on my pair for them to meld together properly.
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post #188 of 1845 Old 01-02-2007, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

ssabie, check your math. It's +6db from acoustic-coupling when doubling drivers and doubling power (by using separate amp channels 800x800w.)

100Hz has an 11.3 foot wavelength, and 10Hz would have a 113 foot wavelength. As long as you are within a wavelength you will get the full gain.

The room will of course screw with things, but that is always a problem. I had to reverse the phase on my pair for them to meld together properly.

didn't I say 6dB?

Edit: oh snap, you are right...hehehe... ... i typed 3dB. too much grandpa's juice for new years will do that to ya! hahaha
Ok, fixed the typo.
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post #189 of 1845 Old 01-03-2007, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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another couple of hours of work done.....routed the outer edges, and glued the four pieces together! Tomorrow hopefully we cut the driver and port holes, and then we can start sanding and prep'ing the pieces for painting.

routing the pieces:


As Chuckster would say, Man was made to work with electricity... Sawdust? What sawdust???! router spits it out, vacuum sucks it in. College pays
dividends, LMAO!



two of the pieces done....all four completed however:


anyways....more to come tomorrow.
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post #190 of 1845 Old 01-03-2007, 11:50 AM
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As Hannibal used to say
"I love it when a plan comes together"
Looks real good. Did you say what the final finish is going to be? Is it going to be stained or some other kind of finish.

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post #191 of 1845 Old 01-03-2007, 12:23 PM
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Man Chuck looks cool.

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Yeah baby, how do ya' like that routing? Its smooth, right? Yeah....

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post #192 of 1845 Old 01-03-2007, 12:34 PM
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Lookin good! I bet those caps weigh a few pounds though! That dust collector lookes intuitive Routering on a table with moving the work itself is so much slicker compared to holding the router. Question from the West side though..what kind of special blend does the Chuckster smoke?

Oh! Now your going to part your subs correct? I don't see you coming out with a 6dB gain at calibration FR level. If they're parted 5-6' or better, it's not going to happen...not that it really matters with the hp you have under the hood! Anyway, looking good along with the nice pics.

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post #193 of 1845 Old 01-03-2007, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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well hell...somebody gotta take the pics and do the grass cutting

ps- I believe those are Malboro's
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post #194 of 1845 Old 01-03-2007, 04:58 PM
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Wow. Suddenly the SVS sub I'm planning on buying seems somewhat...inadequate.
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post #195 of 1845 Old 01-03-2007, 05:15 PM
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Wow. Suddenly the SVS sub I'm planning on buying seems somewhat...inadequate.

Plans are never set in stone...

Come to the dark side.
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post #196 of 1845 Old 01-03-2007, 05:28 PM
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Plans are never set in stone...

Come to the dark side.

heheh..maybe in a few years when I have the $$$/know how (poor college student with no tools)
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post #197 of 1845 Old 01-04-2007, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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heheh..maybe in a few years when I have the $$$/know how (poor college student with no tools)

the tools is a big issue....but the $$$ is not. with the money you were gonna spend on any SVS/HSU/etc, you will KILL any of them. My current box'd large EBS AV15" sub cost me about the price of the PB12-NSD, at Ultra/2 performance levels
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post #198 of 1845 Old 01-04-2007, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

the tools is a big issue....but the $$$ is not. with the money you were gonna spend on any SVS/HSU/etc, you will KILL any of them. My current box'd large EBS AV15" sub cost me about the price of the PB12-NSD, at Ultra/2 performance levels

That's why I put that statement in my signature.

There's no one here on these forums that can argue the fact below.
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post #199 of 1845 Old 01-04-2007, 11:31 AM
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heheh..maybe in a few years when I have the $$$/know how (poor college student with no tools)

Do you live in South Florida by any chance?
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post #200 of 1845 Old 01-04-2007, 12:27 PM
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heheh..maybe in a few years when I have the $$$/know how (poor college student with no tools)

For a $100 a guy can get started in DIY no problem. Considering what you save, your still ahead compared to what you would spend for a decent sub.
Hand saw $20
Clamps $60
Router $60
SQ driver $5
=$145

Now lets figure the cost of a decent sub.....

15" driver $350
Amp $250
Wood $55
Terminals $5
Port $10
Screws $5
Leads $5
Paint $10
Plus tools $145 =$980 Now a guy could add a couple hundred easily, but then he could shave $150. Although the market is heating up, for under a $1000 you can buy the tools and still come out with a sub that would surpass something bought-en conservatively speaking. Most of us over here have a tendency to swap out our subs every so often and that's where the savings really comes into play. None the same, speaking for myself, there is a certain level of satisfaction and pride associated with building a sub that $$ cant buy. Oh! and if done right..it'll be a sub that will blow your doors off.. if that's what your looking for? SPL, SQ it's all there to be had.

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post #201 of 1845 Old 01-04-2007, 02:15 PM
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It may have just been me , but $1000 is a LOT for a college student to spend on something like a subwoofer. Something like an Ascendant Audio 12" Assassin ($90) and PE 300 watt BASH amp with highpass ($105) in 180 effective liters with a 6" sonotube port that is 19" long ($10) would give you a heck of a lot of output down to ~23hz in room. Buy a sheet of MDF from Lowes or Home Depot and have them cut it for you ($20), buy the cheapest binding posts/wire/wood glue/etc. ($20), use "improvised" clamping (heavy things laying around the house ), and cut the driver hole with a borrowed jigsaw or recipricating saw (it would be impossible to not know someone who has one). Put a couple cans of spray paint on it ($3), and you have a killer <$300 sub. It won't go into subsonics, but it should be able to hit 110db+ levels and sound pretty decent. Perfect college sub, not TOO big.
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post #202 of 1845 Old 01-04-2007, 02:44 PM
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It may have just been me , but $1000 is a LOT for a college student to spend on something like a subwoofer, let alone almost any J6P

Let me requote that for emphasis (added a little too).

Honestly, $1000 for bass is insane to most any consumer but an HT zealot

I remember saving a lot of extra money (working overtime) to be able to build my old EBS tempest 6 years ago. College students (non-silver platter kids) have a lot of other bills and a 3 month internship only goes to far during the year.

Jim
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post #203 of 1845 Old 01-04-2007, 03:03 PM
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Honestly, $1000 for bass is insane to most any consumer but an HT zealot

It's all relative depending on what your hobby is. I work with some guys who spend big bucks on fishing equipment, others who buy season tickets for a baseball team. To me, spending big money on those things is insane, but spending $1000 to have excellent bass capability for music and movies is well worth it. Subs will last a long time, get used a lot, and will give me instant gratification as soon as I put some music or a movie on.

As for college students, if you add up how much most of them spend on alcohol in a year, a $250 sub should be no problem I don't drink, and that has had to have saved me tons of money over the years.
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post #204 of 1845 Old 01-04-2007, 03:11 PM
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It may have just been me , but $1000 is a LOT for a college student to spend on something like a subwoofer.

Yeah!..well he's a rich collage kid No seriously though..my dumb. The thing is though, after your first sub, eq and pro amp, along with picking up the tools, a guy can build that sub for around $400. I was just trying to save him some $$ in the long run is all.

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post #205 of 1845 Old 01-04-2007, 03:26 PM
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Yeah, it depends on if he is paying his own way entirely or is as jj put it, a silver-platter kid.
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post #206 of 1845 Old 01-04-2007, 03:32 PM
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I paid my own way for a lot of college .. and still managed a nice system

I went through 2 tempest
2 MASS2012s
2 AV12 w/ 4PR15s
4 x 12 Klipsch RW12 proto drivers
and a very nice Klipsch/Marantz/NAD setup.

I understand the priorities things ... cars, fishing, jewelry etc ... but to say $1k is do-able .. is to me saying a lot. He surely can build it up over time, just as I did ... router here, hand saw there, jigsaw instead of a date on friday ... etc I just don't think many go out and spend $1k and be unaffected.

Jim (realizes this forum is populated by all income levels .. but makes the case for us bottom dwellers)

OP, I borrowed tools and did shoddy work at first ... and it honestly got the job done. You dont need to make furniture grade stuff out of the gates ... so precise tools and perfect panel gapping isn't req'd .... just remembr, liquid nails is GOD

Jim
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post #207 of 1845 Old 01-04-2007, 05:15 PM
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OP, I borrowed tools and did shoddy work at first ... and it honestly got the job done. You dont need to make furniture grade stuff out of the gates ... so precise tools and perfect panel gapping isn't req'd .... just remembr, liquid nails is GOD

Amen! and the trim bit is your friend.

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post #208 of 1845 Old 01-04-2007, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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do it Kid....DO IT!

$1000 aint sh!t in the long scheme of things, and you will have a sub for years to come. Next summer spend some money and you can do your own DIY speakers, and you go from there!!! The sky is the limit, and when you graduate and start making some real money, you can invest in your cars, ladies, booze, and high end processor

it is all relative. I rather save the spring break trip to Cancun or Lake Havesu, and the weekend drunk sessions, and put the money to good use in something I love: clear and accurate Bass.
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post #209 of 1845 Old 01-04-2007, 06:41 PM
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I just don't think many go out and spend $1k and be unaffected.

Well that I can agree with, $1000 isn't an everyday purchase for me But if you average the costs for a decent SVS, Velodyne, Paradigm, HSU, Rocket, Axiom, XYZ subwoofer, many people ARE in fact paying $1000 or much more for their bass. This trend will only continue as home theater becomes more and more popular.

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The thing is though, after your first sub, eq and pro amp, along with picking up the tools, a guy can build that sub for around $400. I was just trying to save him some $$ in the long run is all

No worries, I hear ya! You and Chuck have essentially become pilot plants, able to fabricate subs for not much more than the cost of the driver and some MDF
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post #210 of 1845 Old 01-04-2007, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjw350z View Post

I paid my own way for a lot of college .. and still managed a nice system

I went through 2 tempest
2 MASS2012s
2 AV12 w/ 4PR15s
4 x 12 Klipsch RW12 proto drivers
and a very nice Klipsch/Marantz/NAD setup.

I understand the priorities things ... cars, fishing, jewelry etc ... but to say $1k is do-able .. is to me saying a lot. He surely can build it up over time, just as I did ... router here, hand saw there, jigsaw instead of a date on friday ... etc I just don't think many go out and spend $1k and be unaffected.

Jim (realizes this forum is populated by all income levels .. but makes the case for us bottom dwellers)

OP, I borrowed tools and did shoddy work at first ... and it honestly got the job done. You dont need to make furniture grade stuff out of the gates ... so precise tools and perfect panel gapping isn't req'd .... just remembr, liquid nails is GOD

Hi guys,

The above is quite true. The great thing about college is the low aesthetic standards and value of functional furniture and the like.

With as little as a power drill/screwdriver and a jigsaw for tools, you CAN assemble a highly functional subwoofer! Step it up a bit and get a circular saw and use some clamps for straight edge guides, or you can get away with a circular saw and a Rotozip with sabre bits. All of these options will take you more time than more proper tools, but if you are careful in your cuts and measurements, you will have friends asking you if you can build one for them.

By all means, you don't need the most exotic drivers and amps to get a good sub. $100-500 + wood & glue can get you going with some very fun results. Combine that with the typically cramped confines of college living, and you can get plenty of power to announce any fun you are having to your neighboors.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
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