Offtopic: is it me, or are the Pom Poms out in full effect in the regular sub forum? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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christ, and I thought the "SVS" and "HSU" fanboys and their battles of years past were bad....


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Originally Posted by Ear View Post

For its size the JL subs beat the stuffing out of the large SVS. To me price is a secondary concern,very secondary. ANd the JL subs are THE best performing compact subs made. Period

Velodyne's best compact subs do not match the JL SQ and output...and cost more!

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Originally Posted by johnlarsen View Post

it should be able to base on cost? dont make no sense. the darn thing is 3 times smaller and SEALED too!

fyi, price is no where close to 3 times cost when u compare street prices at dealer. maybe twice the cost. performance of f113 with size and cost factor in, it is the winner.

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Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

I will say this again,I know it was posted many times.But some people cannot get it!

The JL Audio subs are simply of better built quality than anything found under $5000.

From the amazing driver passing by the electronics(simply unmatched quality)going to the enclosure. It is a whole package that is unmatched.

And you have the compactness and SOUND QUALITY with high output down very deep!

Who bests this? No the large SVS do not count,it is very easy to make a large sub that goes deep and loud.Anyone can do this and this is why DIY is so popular.

Now I challenge anyone to do better in the saime size!

Good luck

PS JL Audio's new subs lay the beatdown on many SVS,even using dual drivers! Plus you get better sound quality.

JL did not design these for penny scratchers and those on a budget.These are priced very well.And economical when you pit them VS Velodyne DD series.And I know the JL have Velo beaten too.


just comical!!

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post #2 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 11:49 AM
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It's best to stay here "DIY Speakers and Subs", anywhere else on AVS
and it's like a dawn of the dead zone with zombies everyone looking for flesh.



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #3 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 01:56 PM
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Most people over there spend so much money on their subs that they feel insecure and need to defend their purchasing decisions.
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post #4 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 02:13 PM
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Shhh... when you hit close to the truth their sixth sense goes off and they all come running.
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post #5 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 02:13 PM
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I like to stay in the DIY forum where us real sub enthusiasts are still living in the real world.

When the people in the regular sub forum acknowledge that 18" drivers are not 'slow muddy disco drivers' and actually understand that going under 15hz IS VERY POSSIBLE and achieved by many DIY subs, then maybe I'll pay attention to what they have to say. Until then, I'll spend my time in the DIY forums.
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post #6 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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its not just that though.....

what amuses me is fuktards ranting and raving about 30subs they owe, and that makes them "knowledgeable" in their idiotic minds.....and then they go on a rampage on the aforementioned comments.

just fuking comical!
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post #7 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 02:40 PM
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I agree that DIY is the real bang for the buck. But many just aren't handy to do it! So, commercial subs are the alt. Look at it this way...their not knocking DIY. Matter of fact, they add DIY into the mix with their shootouts.

Evil is Good
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post #8 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 02:46 PM
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I don't think anyone here is knocking them because they didn't DIY.

Be careful, let's not get that dead end going again.
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post #9 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 02:59 PM
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What would you call it? People here are not poking fun at them? Calling them fan boys? I'm sure all here bought a sub before going DIY. So, their estactic with commecial subs. I've seen many in DIY crowing about theirs. As for me, I like both.

Evil is Good
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post #10 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 03:02 PM
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Yeah, Greenspan made the term 'over-exuberance' famous and it sprang from observing such people, but...

I haven't seen any DIYers incorporate features like the E.L.F. trim control, Reference/Variable switch, front panel controls with lighted settings, polarity reverse, selectable LP point/slope, on-board 2.5KW fanless amp, nor output like the JL sub has from a 1X15" sealed sub.

It's a severely cool subwoofer, over-exuberance notwithstanding.

Bosso
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post #11 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
What would you call it?

Fanboys or over-exuberance will work.
Quote:
People here are not poking fun at them?

Oh no, we are poking fun at them. Just for a different reasons.

It isn't that they like there commercial subs. It's that they get so defensive about their favorite they go on the offense and start attacking one another. All of a sudden everyone who owns said item is an expert on everything, and the one they bought is the be all end all.

Kinda like the "which enclosure alignment is best" war over here.
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post #12 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitod View Post

What would you call it? People here are not poking fun at them? Calling them fan boys? I'm sure all here bought a sub before going DIY. So, their estactic with commecial subs. I've seen many in DIY crowing about theirs. As for me, I like both.

Vitod...there is a difference between over-exhuberance and plain ridiculous statements, and being estatic about a commercial sub you just bought.

re-read the above posts for example....

yes, we all came from commercial subs at one point or another, and as Bosso mentioned, the Fathom is a superb sub and raised the bar for sure.....which means, more performance for us consumers. But the issue is idiotic comments like "SVS don't count...anyone can make large subs that go deep", or "JL beat the stuffing out of SVS", etc,.....you know, anything to justify why you spent $3500 on a single sub instead of fractions of that to get 80-90% the performance.

Surely those of us with big DIY subs, multi-driver sealed subs with EQ/LT/Bassis/etc, IBs, LLTs, etc, etc, are happy with our stuff as well, and would never say an idiotic thing as "the Fathom would Never hang"....yes, 4-6 fathoms or gothams can probably hang with a typical IB, or with Bosso's or KG's setup....yes, 2-3 fathoms can probably hang with my upcoming two towers, and do it at a much much smaller footprint...at a 10x factor obviously.

I dont know...I guess the point is, I just dont understand or can't relate with the likes of some of the people mentioned above, because I for one would never be one to come on an online forum and boast about 30 subwoofers that I owe or whatever, and use that as a measuring stick. But to each its own I guess....its a free country with free speech I guess.

I mean, this is classic stuff right here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9163702

"ooooh, look at me!!! I have 11tybillion dollars and I can afford all subs....blah blah blah. Oh yeah, look ma', my twin fathom's are on top of some online forum user's list....hooray for me!!"



christ, no wonder Yates, nouissaine, kuypers, mullen, deering, and all the others almost never come around these forums.....I'm surprised people like Bosso and a couple of others still hang around despite some of these new gems that are coming on board.
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post #13 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 04:35 PM
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Remember when I asked everyone if we should start a DIY forum?, Many of you said no, including Mr. Callas & since i was with AVS @ the time i asked David if we could, you know the rest. guess it was all good in the end hey Sherv?

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http://www.avsforum.com/t/627113/diy-subwoofer-section
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post #14 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 05:30 PM
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I don't know about you guys, but I'm noticing many of the same non-informative comments and/or generalizations made again and again...as if they're to be taken as gospel. This is what bothers me most about that section of the forum...

Another thing that bothers me is how people spend $3000 on a sub then have the nerve to compare it to our DIY driver options, as if there are published and established T/S parameters for their drivers etc...and boasting their $3200 option over our options...thats just something I'll never understand since I'll never spend that much on a sub woofer. I guess i would have to justify my purchase..spending THAT much on a sub woofer.

Only time will tell what the future holds...so until then JAM LIKE THERES NO TOMORROW!
-Rob

My Natalie P project
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post #15 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exocer View Post

I don't know about you guys, but I'm noticing many of the same non-informative comments and/or generalizations made again and again...as if they're to be taken as gospel. This is what bothers me most about that section of the forum...

Another thing that bothers me is how people spend $3000 on a sub then have the nerve to compare it to our DIY driver options, as if there are published and established T/S parameters for their drivers etc...and boasting their $3200 option over our options...thats just something I'll never understand since I'll never spend that much on a sub woofer. I guess i would have to justify my purchase..spending THAT much on a sub woofer.

oh, but it is such a smaller footprint Rob.....price, performance per dollar, size of driver, etc, is not important, don't you get it?????????????? It's size that's important now!

and anyways, if you don't have 30 subs, then your opinion doesn't count, ok?!
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post #16 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 06:24 PM
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Humm, just thinking out loud .....but if I had $3200 to throw at a DIY sub design what would I build.
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post #17 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 06:37 PM
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Remember when I asked everyone if we should start a DIY forum?, Many of you said no, including Mr. Callas

Yeah, yeah, yeah

I'm quickly realizing, even in business, no matter how much logic, evidence, or proof you have, there are some people who's minds you'll never be able to change. As John Rambo says near the end of Rambo III, F'em
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post #18 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Yeah, Greenspan made the term 'over-exuberance' famous and it sprang from observing such people, but...

I haven't seen any DIYers incorporate features like the E.L.F. trim control, Reference/Variable switch, front panel controls with lighted settings, polarity reverse, selectable LP point/slope, on-board 2.5KW fanless amp, nor output like the JL sub has from a 1X15" sealed sub.

It's a severely cool subwoofer, over-exuberance notwithstanding.

Bosso

I would agree that this is a pretty cool design, but really Bosso coming from your eight driver system you have isn't a 13" single driver sub kind of silly (at the 3,500 price point).I don't want to say it's a total joke,but it's about as close to one as I can imagine.

I'm going to be a snob and say it's a waste of money in my world.When I can take 4k and create a subwoofer system that is sealed and has a reference quality variable LT, a 24band PEQ (4)15" drivers that have a total of 12" of(peak to peak) travel and a raw cabinet design that has 500lbs of unmovable mass.6k watts of power and can generate frequencies from the single digits on up to 110db (and beyond) at the listening position.And look butt ugly all at once .

I think Sherv has a point.I'm stayin in the DIY forum for two reasons.One is that DIY guys share information that is able to be put to good use.Two, I like unmatched quality in my system and I'm cheap as hell!
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post #19 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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exactly KG.....christ, for $7K (which is what mr. 30 subs has invested in his twin fathoms) there is just so much damage I could do, that it is just not funny!! Even at the most extreme splurges, I could get 4 x 18" TC LMS5400s in a pair of sealed enclosures, variable LT or DCX2946, EQ outta the wazoo, 16" peak to peak of travel, with tank like cabinet and veneer finishing for the ages, single digit 115dB+ levels and up with less than 10%THD..........or put them in an IB. Alternatively, 8 avalanche 18"s in a similar situation (either sealed, or in an IB) would also create some damage.

the possibilities are endless....

oh wait, but "it doesn't have a small footprint"....and it wont make Craig's list, so shucks....I guess we lose
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post #20 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 07:36 PM
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I'd love to see a DIY setup using JL's 13W7. $1100 MSRP for the 13, Around $800 or so on ebay.
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post #21 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 07:47 PM
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Why use the JL 13W7s when we have TC Sounds?
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post #22 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 08:10 PM
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How about a Resonant Engineering XXX 18". It's got 54mm of one-way xmax. Currently the most excursion available just the low low price of $1000.


later
Seth
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post #23 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 09:00 PM
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Quote:


yes, we all came from commercial subs at one point or another

Not I! Going straight to DIY!

I'm so damn cheap I can never buy stuff commercially that I can figure out myself. Hell, I started to build my own computer from scrap parts in 7th grade. Guess that's why I'm gonna be an electrcial engineer
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post #24 of 369 Old 12-13-2006, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

I would agree that this is a pretty cool design, but really Bosso coming from your eight driver system you have isn't a 13" single driver sub kind of silly (at the 3,500 price point).I don't want to say it's a total joke,but it's about as close to one as I can imagine.

I'm going to be a snob and say it's a waste of money in my world.When I can take 4k and create a subwoofer system that is sealed and has a reference quality variable LT, a 24band PEQ (4)15" drivers that have a total of 12" of(peak to peak) travel and a raw cabinet design that has 500lbs of unmovable mass.6k watts of power and can generate frequencies from the single digits on up to 110db (and beyond) at the listening position.And look butt ugly all at once .

Well, KG...you're one of the original cool cats. Your HT looks awesome and your low end is reference quality...zero doubt. BTW, I have some very groovy amps on the bench right now...the whole 2.8KW into an 8 ohm load. One amp per box vs 2 QSCs and it's loaded with some very high tech goodies...all for less stew than the 2 QSCs

But, just read the posts in this thread, especially after your post. You can see that the bar has been raised by JL all the way into this forum section.

Still, most DIY is a passive sub with a pro amp and Behringer EQ.

Hey Sherv...speaking of vaporware, you TC fans keep talking about the LMS drivers like you've built a sub around them and ran the tests...where the heck are they? And, wait 'til ya see what I got sittin' here...you are gonna sh!t bullets, I garontee. I'll be hookin' up with ya as soon as the package is complete

Bosso
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post #25 of 369 Old 12-14-2006, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


Hey Sherv...speaking of vaporware, you TC fans keep talking about the LMS drivers like you've built a sub around them and ran the tests...where the heck are they? And, wait 'til ya see what I got sittin' here...you are gonna sh!t bullets, I garontee. I'll be hookin' up with ya as soon as the package is complete

Bosso

Oh no doubt! I'm still patiently waiting here for your creation.....I wish you had them ready so I could mock a replica myself, but you are just waaaaaay too slow for my tastes jack I've been waiting well over a year for some news and info on that stuff and still nothing. But I will continue to wait and see

Yeah, I think I'm pretty optimistic on the LMS series of the TC products, even though they are not even out, in part due to past experiences with the LMT technology and in part due to previous TC performance including current offerings like the 2000 and 3000 series. But you know me Bosso, the proof is in the pudding....if these bad boys don't pan out like they should, I'll be the first to admit they were too hyped.

I'm back in the realm of the proven XBL^2 camp for now.....you know, dual 18" versions

I agree that it seems that the JL provided a great sub in a small package, but c'mon now...lets get real.
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post #26 of 369 Old 12-14-2006, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Well, KG...you're one of the original cool cats. Your HT looks awesome and your low end is reference quality...zero doubt. BTW, I have some very groovy amps on the bench right now...the whole 2.8KW into an 8 ohm load. One amp per box vs 2 QSCs and it's loaded with some very high tech goodies...all for less stew than the 2 QSCs

But, just read the posts in this thread, especially after your post. You can see that the bar has been raised by JL all the way into this forum section.

Still, most DIY is a passive sub with a pro amp and Behringer EQ.

Hey Sherv...speaking of vaporware, you TC fans keep talking about the LMS drivers like you've built a sub around them and ran the tests...where the heck are they? And, wait 'til ya see what I got sittin' here...you are gonna sh!t bullets, I garontee. I'll be hookin' up with ya as soon as the package is complete

Bosso

Ya know Bosso, I never began my rant with letting you know that I read all your posts and respect your knowledge.Most of the time I get lost in the banter you and Mullen would throw around. I never meant any disrespect and always look to your intelect as refreshing and a huge plus to the DIY section.

WTS, lets talk about these amps.I'll take a PM if you don't want to side track Sherv's thread.

I will agree totally about the methodology of the DIY reference.Passive,pro amp,pro PEQ. The JL sub will cause more guys to look there instead of plunking ducks down on DIY.Those subs for the cash are alot, but in rethinking, they may cause a fence sitter to say,"Why bother when I can buy a sub like that".

Point well taken.
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post #27 of 369 Old 12-14-2006, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitod View Post

What would you call it? People here are not poking fun at them? Calling them fan boys? I'm sure all here bought a sub before going DIY. So, their estactic with commecial subs. I've seen many in DIY crowing about theirs. As for me, I like both.


I kinda cheated.I worked for an audio store and had a chance to listen to alot of commercial subs.I also had to go out on some calls from customers who were having problems and we couldn't fix it over the phone.I got to hear a bunch in their homes while on those calls.I thought they did ok, but my lack of funds always pointed me to DIY.The guys at the store laughed it off until I drove one of my Tumults to the store and showed them.People were coming in and wondering what the hell it was.They had never seen a driver out of the box.it was cool.

So, no I never owned a commercial sub .



KG
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post #28 of 369 Old 12-14-2006, 01:14 PM
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I'm sure all here bought a sub before going DIY

Not me. Went from nothing to my big TC-2K sub.
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post #29 of 369 Old 12-14-2006, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Not me. Went from nothing to my big TC-2K sub.

Me too, from nothing to the 12" Rythmik then to 4 x 18" Sealed then soon to 4 x 18" IB.

I've been spoiled... It's tough for me to appreciate most people's set-ups now.

Still, the best set-up I have heard was Chasw98's theater with ALL DIY speakers and DIY sub. Hearing the album Aja by Steely Dan on just his WWMT mains was a memorable experience. After giving his system a listen with the matching surrounds I would have to say it was the best sounding system I have heard to date.

Commercial lovers can say what they want about DIY, but after hearing a $500 pair of DIY speakers with a $500 DIY sub compared to the ridiculously priced top of the line Martin Logan speakers and the top of the line Martin Logan sub I can say that DIY sounded better to my ears than Martin Logans.
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post #30 of 369 Old 12-14-2006, 02:33 PM
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Theres absolutely nothing wrong with buying a sub or having owned a commercial sub. Its the comparing of retail subs to DIY subs that cause problems. The "hype"/misunderstanding of the inner workings of a sub by many who just buy pre-built subs and make completely off the wall performance claims based on absolutely no data is what causes conflict...and annoys me.

Normally I'm not the type of person who makes wide generalizations, but it is often the case that people who go through a period of time and patience designing DIY speakers/subs taking many variables into consideration when designing a speaker well suited for their own tastes will have a much more educated/unbiased/ and broader understanding of how subwoofers work than those who just buy subs based on amp power, published f3 numbers and driver size...who then proceed to whale about how their sub is the best!

Edit: And not to mention, people who bring up the size/output ratio of the Fathom are totally overlooking the necessary power required to get any decent SPL in that small of a box... hence the 2500watt rated amp. There ISN'T anything magical about the fathom...high excursion driver and a lot of amp power in a small box...so what? What sets it apart from most DIY projects are the features on its conveniently located front mounted control panel, and i guess its aesthetically pleasing (subjective).

Only time will tell what the future holds...so until then JAM LIKE THERES NO TOMORROW!
-Rob

My Natalie P project
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