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post #1 of 36 Old 01-06-2007, 11:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi, I'm thinking about building a sub and would like some input, I've never built one before. I'm thinking about the 15" TC3000 with 2 passive radiators, and the Parts Express 1000w plate amp. I want the box as small as possible, 3 cuft max. Are these good choices, and if not could you recommend better choices? This is primarily a HT sub, but it has to be relatively small for WAF. Can someone tell me how much output, how low it will go, and if it will sound any good? Will it be much better than 2 MFW-15s that I am also considering for about the same price?
Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 36 Old 01-06-2007, 11:44 PM
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As for DIY or retail, definitely go DIY. You can build some amazing things with $1000, and with retail you couldn't come nearly as close.
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post #3 of 36 Old 01-07-2007, 07:09 AM
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Indeed
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post #4 of 36 Old 01-07-2007, 07:20 AM
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I agree completely that you can most likely get much more for your money with DIY (unless you plan on putting value on your time spent). Though honestly, I'm not sure your proposed plan would be better than two MFW-15s. Passive radiators take some of the "value" out... they end up being kind of pricey compared to a similar performing port. Two MFW-15s should have PLENTY of output, even in a fairly large room. Though they may not have as much extension as some other designs.

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post #5 of 36 Old 01-07-2007, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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What would be a good proposal for a 3cuft box for about 1000. Should I go with a sealed 18 over a 15 with 2 passive radiators? I figured with a port the box would be bigger than I could sneak past the wife.

The 18" TC-5200 isn't much more than the 15 and radiators. Would the 1000w Dayton plate amp be enough to push it? I'd rather go with a plate amp than an external, so are there any other powerful plate amps to consider? I've extensively listened to a DD18, which would be ideal if not for cost. Will this combo be close for half price? I'm more concerned with extension and quality over output, although I do like to crank it up once in a while.

This project isn't purely to save money, I thought it'd be fun to DIY.
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post #6 of 36 Old 01-07-2007, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henwong View Post

What would be a good proposal for a 3cuft box for about 1000. Should I go with a sealed 18 over a 15 with 2 passive radiators? I figured with a port the box would be bigger than I could sneak past the wife.

The 18" TC-5200 isn't much more than the 15 and radiators. Would the 1000w Dayton plate amp be enough to push it? I'd rather go with a plate amp than an external, so are there any other powerful plate amps to consider? I've extensively listened to a DD18, which would be ideal if not for cost. Will this combo be close for half price? I'm more concerned with extension and quality over output, although I do like to crank it up once in a while.

This project isn't purely to save money, I thought it'd be fun to DIY.

With small sealed you needs LOTS of power and the dayton should be alright. You would also want to get a Behringer BFD to make a psuedo-linkwitz transform to boost the lower frequencies.

Have you thought of making a sealed dual 15 in a push-pull configuration with a EP2500w amp, it would also be under $1k easily?
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post #7 of 36 Old 01-07-2007, 01:39 PM
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PRs are indeed an option to get the efficiency of a port in a smaller package. The problem is the added cost, in addition a slightly steeper rolloff than even a ported box. Personally, given a size constraint, I'd prefer to replace the PRs with another driver (or a larger single one), in a sealed box and make up for the lost efficiency with power and EQ. But that's just me. Since you liked the Velodyne, and are considering two 15" subs anyway, in your position I would certainly consider two of the 15" Rythmik Audio kits. High on my suggestion list mostly because I've built the 12" kits and really like them. Two 15" kits should give you a lot of output (how big is your room?), plus extension and accuracy that would be hard to beat given your cost and size constraints. There is someone already building one... you may want to check out this thread. He should be getting pretty close to being done.

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post #8 of 36 Old 01-07-2007, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I'll go with the 18" TC5200 and the 1000W plate amp. TC Sounds has recommended a 3cuft sealed enclosure for this driver. It costs a little more than 2 15" Rythmik kits, but I like the possibility of getting similar performance in 1 box.

I'm just worried if the 1000W will be enough for this driver in a small sealed enclosure, TC recommends 1000W to 4000W per driver. I'm sure the smaller the enclosure the more power is needed. I don't want to be under utilizing the driver.
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post #9 of 36 Old 01-07-2007, 11:45 PM
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Be aware that many of the plate amps have a fairly high subsonic filter. I would get a Buttkicker amp to power that driver. You will get around 900 watts into 4 ohms and close to 1,800 into 2 ohms. Many people have used this amp to driver subs and it works great.
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post #10 of 36 Old 01-08-2007, 12:45 AM
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The only problem with the buttkicker is that he said he wanted wanted a plate amp. If he was going external, he might as well use the ep2500, that would give him 2400watts into 2ohms and cost about the same.
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post #11 of 36 Old 01-08-2007, 01:07 AM
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hewong - If I were you, I'd wait till the LMS-5400 is finally released, and the LMS-4100. I think it would be a great option for you.
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post #12 of 36 Old 01-08-2007, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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The 18" LMS costs too much, would the 15" LMS 5400 or 4100 perform better in a sealed box than the 18" TC 5200?
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post #13 of 36 Old 01-08-2007, 07:03 PM
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IMHO the LMS series is probably overkill unless you have a huge room, or you just have crazy needs/wants. Then again I'm also broke and love cost effective drivers
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post #14 of 36 Old 01-08-2007, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henwong View Post

The 18" LMS costs too much, would the 15" LMS 5400 or 4100 perform better in a sealed box than the 18" TC 5200?

Both the 4100 and 5400 should indeed have higher output with lower distortion. The 4100 is apparently on hold though...probably so they can concentrate on getting the 5400 shipped out.
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post #15 of 36 Old 01-11-2007, 01:15 AM
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Quote:


Be aware that many of the plate amps have a fairly high subsonic filter.

This was my first thought in relation to the amp being considered. Something else that might be appealing.. is the 18" drivers that are expected to debut in the next month or so? Are you already setup eq wise?

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post #16 of 36 Old 01-11-2007, 06:24 AM
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If you're gonna go sealed, I think you would be better off going with two opposed TC 3000 15" drivers instead of a single 5200 18". Put the extra $100 saved towards a better amp too, a 1000 watt plate amp with a 20hz highpass just ain't gonna cut it 3 cubic feet, two TC 3000 15s, 6000 watts, and some means of EQ.

Start comparing the two options in modeling - the 5200 18" demands almost twice as much power as the two 3000s, yet won't give as much output. With opposed drivers, you can get away with much less bracing as well.
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post #17 of 36 Old 01-11-2007, 02:03 PM
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Start comparing the two options in modeling - the 5200 18" demands almost twice as much power as the two 3000s, yet won't give as much output. With opposed drivers, you can get away with much less bracing as well.

That would be a nice sub to be sure, but I was thinking of the 18" from Mike over at SoundSplinter that should come in under the two TC's. It might be worth considering anyway?? Time will tell on how it specs out, power to drive it and relative cost to the project??

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post #18 of 36 Old 01-11-2007, 03:05 PM
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The 15"TC3000's have good sensititivity (89.DB) and even if used in a sealed box 1000 watts should be plenty.The 1000 watt figure that TC mentions is the maximum long term power rating ,it does not need this much power to operate.

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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

... 6000 watts,

Not possible from a single channel with 120volt 15amp service.

Its nice to have some extra power but 6000watts
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post #19 of 36 Old 01-11-2007, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

If you're gonna go sealed, I think you would be better off going with two opposed TC 3000 15" drivers instead of a single 5200 18". Put the extra $100 saved towards a better amp too, a 1000 watt plate amp with a 20hz highpass just ain't gonna cut it 3 cubic feet, two TC 3000 15s, 6000 watts, and some means of EQ.

Start comparing the two options in modeling - the 5200 18" demands almost twice as much power as the two 3000s, yet won't give as much output. With opposed drivers, you can get away with much less bracing as well.

I thought the Dayton plate amp could be easily modified, is this not true? Would 2 TC3000s work in a 3cuft box? TC recommends 1 in a 3 cuft box. I'm not looking for tremendous output. leaning more towards SQ and extension.
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post #20 of 36 Old 01-11-2007, 10:28 PM
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Yes, they can be modified, but two TC3Ks could easily benefit from and use much more power.

http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=273
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post #21 of 36 Old 01-11-2007, 10:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the link, an amazing sub but would be too big at 5.4cuft and 200 pounds. I also don't need the dbs he is putting out, mid 100s would suit me just fine.
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post #22 of 36 Old 01-11-2007, 11:24 PM
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You don't have to build it to 5.4ft^3 or even that heavy. Kramskoi just took the liberty of building an extremely beefy enclosure.
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post #23 of 36 Old 01-12-2007, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Put the extra $100 saved towards a better amp too, a 1000 watt plate amp with a 20hz highpass just ain't gonna cut it

OK.....why not?

Seriously, are you concerned about the 1000W, or the HP filter? It would seem that you could disable the filter if that's the issue. I agree that it will be tough to get to reference level with 1000W into a single 15" in a 3 cf sealed box, but 105-108 should be achievable with a pretty flat response down to the very low 20s, right?
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post #24 of 36 Old 01-12-2007, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Yes, they can be modified, but two TC3Ks could easily benefit from and use much more power.

http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=273

200 pounds, so what if we used a sono setup drivers on both endcaps for this configuration (roughly 24" dia x 24" ht)
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post #25 of 36 Old 01-12-2007, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Would the TC3000 be clearly better than the Rythmik 15" kit? I don't mind the $200 price difference if it would be better. Then later I may add another sealed TC3000 for more dbs and room issues.
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post #26 of 36 Old 01-12-2007, 12:53 PM
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henwong - in output, yes, the tc3000 would be better. Otherwise? I might would go with the Rythmik. You keep saying that you don't really need that much output so I am inclined to tell you that the Rythmik is your best bet.

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200 pounds, so what if we used a sono setup drivers on both endcaps for this configuration (roughly 24" dia x 24" ht)

Sure, I don't see why that would be a problem. I would probably go with 20" tube though and I'd make real beefy endcaps, of course.
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post #27 of 36 Old 01-12-2007, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, I'll go with 2 sealed 15" Rythmiks as Darin suggested. I was thinking of starting with just 1 but with the price discount on buying 2 kits at the same time I'll go with 2. I now need to start on some plans and whether I'm going to build with MDF or birch. Thanks for alll the help.
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post #28 of 36 Old 01-12-2007, 01:52 PM
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Yeah, you'll definitely have extension and quality with a pair of those. How big is your room?
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post #29 of 36 Old 01-12-2007, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Room isn't that big, about 2500 cuft, but it opens up to the rest of the house and can not be sealed off.
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post #30 of 36 Old 01-12-2007, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Not possible from a single channel with 120volt 15amp service.

Its nice to have some extra power but 6000watts

Hey, that's how much they can take without exceeding excursion until <10hz. When you go sealed, and you want good results, you're gonna have to poney up for some beefy amplification. Restricting them to 1000 watts would be pretty silly, these aren't LLTs we're talking about.

Quote:
Seriously, are you concerned about the 1000W, or the HP filter?

Both. And the fact that it's a plate amp.

I could live to be 100 and I'll never understand knowingly shortchanging oneself when building a sub, budget allowances aside How many times have we read, "I don't need anything extreme, I don't play that loud" only to see them come back in 6 months or so with a new thread, "I like the bass that I have, I just want MORE of it!". It happens all the time. Do it right the first time, save yourself the hassle and some money. When you experience some decent capability for the first time, you will get addicted, and you will want more. End rant.
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