LMS-5400 Sonosub Design Thread - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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EDIT: This tread started as a LMS-5400 Sonotube thread and later turned into dual 15" TC-200 Design Thread - Which basically starts on page EIGHT.


First, I just want to warn everyone that this maybe a very slow sonosub construction thread because 1) because parts might take forever to arrive 2) I am an accountant...and its busy season.

None the less, I wanted to start getting suggestions from people in regards to the design. I could use all the help that is possibly available.

Steve Callas: "If you were set on a LMS 5400, seeing as you wouldn't really be able to call on all that output capability, I'd go for a really low tune. Something like 550 effective liters with a 6" diameter port that is 28" long being fed with 1500 watts. The port velocity is actually better on the whole with this design than a smaller, slightly higher tuned option."

I wanted to know how others felt about this design.

To start with, I am using the "Sonosub.exe" software as a design template:

What I have entered into the program is as follows:
Effective Volume: 550L
Tuining Frequency: 11
Internal diameter of Sonotube: 24"
Port internal diameter: 6"

The program's out put states:
Height End cap to end cap: 6"9.5"
Port length: 2'4.25"

I wanted to know the brotherhoods opinion on this design.
I was also curious, as to what size Sonotube I should go for: 24" or 28"

Please let me know what you guys think.
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post #2 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 12:08 PM
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Well if you're going to seriously go through with it, lemme clean that rough design up a little bit 525 effective liters, 6" diameter port that is 30" long, 1500-1800 watts, and as large a roundover or flare as you can get away with. I'd go with 24" tube.
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post #3 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 12:58 PM
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I would suggest 450 liters, 27"x6" port, 2000W. Please see attachments. Yellow is my suggestion with 2000W, gray is Steve's suggestion with 1600W. Mine is geared towards higher max SPL in 12-100 Hz range while Steve's goes a little bit lower and keeps the port velocity lower.

300 liters with two 18" PRs tuned to 12 Hz (with 2500W) would be my #1 choice for this driver though.
LL
LL
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post #4 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 04:54 PM
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Exactly how do you measure port velocity and how does it effect the sound? Sorry if this is a really noob question
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post #5 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gir_1337 View Post

Exactly how do you measure port velocity and how does it effect the sound? Sorry if this is a really noob question

Most modelling software calculates for you. High port velocity will be very audible and is called chuffing (sounds like a steam engine). One way to avoid this is to make a larger diameter port and/or flare both or one the end of the port.
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post #6 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for posting comments guys,

Richard - unfortunately, I do not have the budget for 2 18". I had started another tread in which I needed people's opinion on a single subwoofer ( I choose to do a single sonosub over two cheaper sono's with potentially equal performance). Most people concurred eventually concurred on the lms-5400 sonosub setup (partially because I had no luck with AVA 18").

Thanks for your suggestion steve. I waiting on many of the other's who have built subs with the sono configuration to give their opinion. Hopefully you guys can help me eventually come to a perfect design for the LMS-5400 sonosub.
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post #7 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 05:18 PM
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Port velocity is shown on a tab in WinISD Pro, and Bill Collison did some thorough testing to determine at what velocities audible chuffing is heard and output compression begins in various diameter ports with various flares. You can read his work and download his Flare It program here. With a 6" diameter port, output compression begins at ~26m/s and ideally you'd have a flare radius of ~1.5" to keep up with that limit for audible chuffing, though compression will be much more detrimental than chuffing, cause high output can potentially mask the effects of chuffing. This again gets back to why the LMS 5400 doesn't make the greatest LLT, as the power needed to squeeze out those extra 3db or so over something like an Avalanche 18 design will incur port compression down low anyway (meaning you don't get the output), and the overall output levels see compression down low. Such air displacement wants an 8" diameter port, possibly larger, but that driver doesn't want an enclosure large enough to warrant such large port use. This discussion is sounding familiar
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post #8 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 05:35 PM
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I've said it before but I'll say it again, I'd still go with passive radiators were I to use this driver.
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post #9 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Brotherhood members,

Once again, if you feel the LMS-5400 is not the way to go. Please let me know. I had placed an order and have been told it would ship this upcoming friday. It would be easier to back out now and not have to pay for shipping here as well as return shipping (should I decide on backing out later)

The ultimate goal was a "single deadly sonotube".

Willd:"Well there is no better option than the lms-5400 for a "single deadly sonosub".

Crackyfilpside:"For having a single driver, there's nothing better that I know of regular sub-drivers than the 5400"


If LMS-5400 is the ideal driver for the sonotube, and I did read the other forums regards some port chuffing issues. What I took away from that form was that the AVA18 can produce same performace at lower price and power input as the LMS-5400. However, as everyone knows, the AVA18 are no longer available.

PS. I triend contact a few members here at avsforums regarding there interest in selling the ava 18. However, anyone who had initially considered selling the ava 18 is no longer selling them.

Guys,
Once again, if the LMS-5400 is not good for my "single deadly sonosub", then please let me know and I will cancel my order tomorrow...and possibly opt for a single tc-2000.

Please let me know thanks.
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post #10 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 07:09 PM
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As I just said in another thread, IMHO I think the LMS is probably overkill and that a tc-2000 would be far more cost effective. How big is your room? If it's really big then perhaps the LMS is the way to go.

BTW, what's with the "The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later." message? Hopefully I didn't just post this like 20 times
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post #11 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gir_1337 View Post

How big is your room? If it's really big then perhaps the LMS is the way to go.

BTW, what's with the "The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later." message? Hopefully I didn't just post this like 20 times

Oh man I tell you the server is always too busy at this place. I can never post in the first time


My hometheater room is a rectangle: 30feet x 20 feet x 8 foot ceiling or 4800 cubic feet.
Unfortunately its not a dedicated home theater room.
The home theater is occupying 1/2 of the room and the other half is occupied by a pool table and bar.
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post #12 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 08:50 PM
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I don't want to sound like I'm trying to steer you some other way, just let me know if I'm being overbearing. Like I said in the previous thread though, I don't really see the value in the LMS 5400, it doesn't really make an ideal LLT - or even ported sub for that matter. Also, like before, with Ascend 340s, while nice speakers, they will start getting harsh before something like a TC 2000 15" svc LLT, so even if you could somehow overcome the port and power issues and extract all the performance from the LMS 5400 18", it doesn't really matter. If you want to pursue keeping bass distortion down to low single digits at any and all times, you could build a second TC 2000 15" svc LLT now or down the roadand still be up a lot of $$$$. I know you would prefer one to two, but a second may also even out the FR in your room more naturally than using EQ. Two just looks more symetrical too lol.

If you want one last shot at an Avalanche 18, I just saw another guy selling one - I believe at DIY audio for $500. I swear I have seen more Avalanche 18s in the past two months than I have in the past year and a half. People must have just been sitting on them or something, I dunno, VERY strange. It's like that rapper Tupac (however you spell it) coming out with new songs years after he died Conspiracy by Chad? Perhaps.
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post #13 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 08:56 PM
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Yeah, the TC-2K would really make more sense as it is a better option as far as usability is concerned for a low-tuned sonosub. Granted the LMS would still have significantly lower distortion at equal and even higher output levels.
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post #14 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 10:47 PM
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just FYI...i had dinner with Deon bearden of TC, and they are gonna ship the first shipments of the 5400s next week.

additionally, there is gonna be a group buy soon (info to be given soon), and if enough interest (20+ drivers), we are talking 18" 5400s in the $500-600's ...... avalanche who?!
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post #15 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 10:57 PM
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Sherv - Did Deon mention anything about the 4100?
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post #16 of 218 Old 01-08-2007, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efalegalo View Post

Thanks for posting comments guys,

Richard - unfortunately, I do not have the budget for 2 18". I had started another tread in which I needed people's opinion on a single subwoofer ( I choose to do a single sonosub over two cheaper sono's with potentially equal performance). Most people concurred eventually concurred on the lms-5400 sonosub setup (partially because I had no luck with AVA 18").

I didn't mean 2 active 18", I meant 2 passive radiators which are $169 apiece.
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post #17 of 218 Old 01-09-2007, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the help again guys.

I think the issue for is that I really do not know the capabilities of the sonosub's being produced here. The thing is that, though it many have had rave reviews and is considered my many to be a great great subwoofer, the HSU VTF3-MKII does not fulfill my bass needs. I guess this could be partially because my room is quite big (4800cubicfeet). And for that reason, I am willing to go out and spend some decent money on a good subwoofer. Whatever I end up with, I just want it to be much more effective than my current HSU.

I have absolutely no clue as to how amazing a TC-2000 would perform in my setting, or even how the LMS-5400 would do. In either case, I wanted to make sure that my bass needs were fulfilled. I just don't want to create a situation where the last thing I want is more bass.

Steve - you are definately not being overbearing. If anything, you might end up saving me more money. But, as I have said before, ultimately I want nice clean loud bass, without giving price too much weight, and whether it is achieved from TC2000 or LMS-5400

Once again, I have no clue about the capabilities of the a single TC-2000. I am just hoping people would tell me from their experience if that TC-2000 will far exceed my needs (not that it could just overpower my ascends, but that it could perform flawlessly in 4800cubicfeet room paired with any speakers).
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post #18 of 218 Old 01-09-2007, 07:35 AM
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Ok, capabilities of a single TC 2000 15" svc LLT with 900-1000 watts. Your 4800 cubic foot room probably won't yield much room gain, so I wouldn't count on much, if any. Assuming you won't be sitting more than 10' or so away from the sub location, you should be able to hit at least 113db levels down to ~14hz. Corner placement for boundary gain could very well raise that number, but I would count on 113db. Have you measured your HSU in your room? Depending on the gain (or lack thereof) you are getting down low, I could tweak a TC 2000 design so that it will work better with your specific room.

If you want to be assured of reference level capability into the low teens, I would go ahead and build two. You should be able to come in under $2000 easily. I can't foresee you needing or wanting more than two. In fact, I'm pretty sure your post after completing one and firing it up will include words like "wow", "clean", "deep", "power" and "shook"

If I am looking at the correct model, that HSU sub is using a single 12" driver with 435 watts and is tuned to ~25hz. You have no idea what you are in for buddy. Not only will you have bass that goes lower and louder, you will have much cleaner bass, and assuming you like accuracy, it will sound a lot better.
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post #19 of 218 Old 01-09-2007, 07:46 AM
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What would be the capabilities of this driver in a passive radiator design?

I would still really like to see something built with this driver by someone in these forums!
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post #20 of 218 Old 01-09-2007, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Ok, capabilities of a single TC 2000 15" svc LLT with 900-1000 watts. Your 4800 cubic foot room probably won't yield much room gain, so I wouldn't count on much, if any. Assuming you won't be sitting more than 10' or so away from the sub location, you should be able to hit at least 113db levels down to ~14hz. Corner placement for boundary gain could very well raise that number, but I would count on 113db. Have you measured your HSU in your room? Depending on the gain (or lack thereof) you are getting down low, I could tweak a TC 2000 design so that it will work better with your specific room.

If you want to be assured of reference level capability into the low teens, I would go ahead and build two. You should be able to come in under $2000 easily. I can't foresee you needing or wanting more than two. In fact, I'm pretty sure your post after completing one and firing it up will include words like "wow", "clean", "deep", "power" and "shook"

If I am looking at the correct model, that HSU sub is using a single 12" driver with 435 watts and is tuned to ~25hz. You have no idea what you are in for buddy. Not only will you have bass that goes lower and louder, you will have much cleaner bass, and assuming you like accuracy, it will sound a lot better.

Steve,

Remember that WinISD measures SPL at 1m in half-space, meaning you have to substract 6 dB when comparing to 2m GP measurements.

It looks like 300 liter, 15 Hz tuned TC-2000 15" with 1000W will be around 3-6 dB stronger than the HSU VTF-3 MK2 (25 Hz tune) in 30-100 Hz range, ~10-12 dB at 20 Hz, ~20 dB at 15 Hz.
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post #21 of 218 Old 01-09-2007, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackyflipside View Post

What would be the capabilities of this driver in a passive radiator design?

I would still really like to see something built with this driver by someone in these forums!

Same as in same sized ported enclosure.
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post #22 of 218 Old 01-09-2007, 08:01 AM
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Remember that WinISD measures SPL at 1m in half-space, meaning you have to substract 6 dB when comparing to 2m GP measurements.

Correct, but I have found that WinISD's simulated spl output matches up very well with real world achievable in room levels within 10' or so. I'm concerned more about what people will get in room as opposed to 2m ground plane. Parboy was able to hit a peak of 117db at 38hz from 10' away - that's pretty impressive considering a LLT shifts a lot of sensitivity down low.
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post #23 of 218 Old 01-09-2007, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efalegalo View Post

Once again, I have no clue about the capabilities of the a single TC-2000. I am just hoping people would tell me from their experience if that TC-2000 will far exceed my needs (not that it could just overpower my ascends, but that it could perform flawlessly in 4800cubicfeet room paired with any speakers).

My room is around 3500 cubic feet not including that it is open to a hall, kitchen and dining area and i use one TC2000 that I am plenty happy with. Just to give you an idea i keep the volume on the butkicker at the 9 o'clock position and it still rattles the whole first floor with a notable pressure differance in the listening room. I was simply amazed of the output when i first cranked it up.

IMHO allot of people just don't realize what this is capable off, you can't compare it to any store bought stuff although i haven't compared any. I made a comment in my design thread that I couldn't imagine how anyone would need more than one. These guys are very serious about their bass. Saying this i think going with two TC2000's like in my signature would blow you away. Another plus would be that you could probably build two of these for the price of the LMS5400 alone unless you wait for the group buy. Keep in mind that with two of them you could probably tune them a liitle lower, SteveC and Will could help you with that. Hope this helps.

Edit: oops allot have responded before i wrote this.

BR
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post #24 of 218 Old 01-09-2007, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Correct, but I have found that WinISD's simulated spl output matches up very well with real world achievable in room levels within 10' or so. I'm concerned more about what people will get in room as opposed to 2m ground plane.

Well that depends of the room in question. You can't make that kind of genralization. What kind of levels you think the HSU can hit in room?

I wouldn't have made the remark unless you had posted the link to Ilkka's GP measurements.

Quote:


Parboy was able to hit a peak of 117db at 38hz from 10' away - that's pretty impressive considering a LLT shifts a lot of sensitivity down low.

No offence Steve, but I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on that. He said there was a room peak at that frequency. Although 117 dB seems reasonable based on WinISD simulations, 6-7 dB room/boundary gain isn't too high.
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post #25 of 218 Old 01-09-2007, 08:44 AM
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You should be able to come in under $2000 easily.

Hell, he would easily come in under $1300 for two.
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post #26 of 218 Old 01-09-2007, 09:50 AM
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Well that depends of the room in question

Obviously there will be variation from room to room, but on the whole, when you start looking at FR after FR of LLT subs in room, and read about max levels reached before the user couldn't take anymore or amp lights started to clip, you get a pretty good feel for what each design is capable of in a typical room. In Efalegalo's room, I think it would be safe to assume he's not going to get too much gain down low. Also, as long as he's not sitting extremely far from the sub though - again, let's say no more than 10' away - max output levels over the broad spectrum shouldn't be too difficult to predict.

Quote:


I wouldn't have made the remark unless you had posted the link to Ilkka's GP measurements.

I didn't base my TC 2000 numbers on 2m GP, I based them in room. The HSU measurements from Ilkka are 2m GP. I looked up Ilkka's review so I could get a feel for what this HSU sub is capable of, as I'm not intimately familiar with their stuff.

Quote:


No offence Steve, but I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on that. He said there was a room peak at that frequency. Although 117 dB seems reasonable based on WinISD simulations, 6-7 dB room/boundary gain isn't too high

Quote:
Originally Posted by parboy View Post

Richard - This was just for fun, not really doing a complete FR. We simply used the tone generator to find the loudest freq and then ramped up the volume to see what we could get. We did take complete FR measurements, which is what im trying to get from my friend who saved them on his laptop

None taken, I was simply sharing his experience and commenting on how that's pretty good for a 15" driver LLT that is tuned so low. It doesn't necessarily have to be a peak caused by the room though - when you consider a 4th order lowpass at 80hz, it could just be the frequency the sub plays the loudest at. Either way, I'm didn't infer that everyone should expect 117db levels in their rooms.
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post #27 of 218 Old 01-09-2007, 09:55 AM
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Hell, he would easily come in under $1300 for two

I allowed some room for fancy finishes and potential mistakes
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post #28 of 218 Old 01-09-2007, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

I didn't base my TC 2000 numbers on 2m GP, I based them in room. The HSU measurements from Ilkka are 2m GP. I looked up Ilkka's review so I could get a feel for what this HSU sub is capable of, as I'm not intimately familiar with their stuff.

That's exactly what I meant. You say TC-2000 WinISD 1m half-space numbers correlate well with in-room performance, yet you look HSU's 2m GP numbers.
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post #29 of 218 Old 01-09-2007, 11:13 AM
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LMS-5400 Sonosub for the win! Stay on course.

People dissuade you because they are jealous ?

Over-engineering a sub is sweet. Operate that sub below it's performance envelope
to raise long term realibility. Operate a lesser woofer at it's performance
envelope and don't be surprised if you will build another sonsub sooner than
expected.

lol .................



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #30 of 218 Old 01-09-2007, 11:52 AM
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That's exactly what I meant. You say TC-2000 WinISD 1m half-space numbers correlate well with in-room performance, yet you look HSU's 2m GP numbers.

I'm not following? I didn't extrapolate the HSU's numbers into any in room numbers in my post, I simply used them to get a feel for what it is capable of. If you go ahead and add 6db to the HSU measurements, it's pretty clear that it's not going to deliver much in terms of infrasonics or clean low end bass.

Quote:


LMS-5400 Sonosub for the win! Stay on course.

Ok, but how does one overcome the port output compression? You have to ask if the large premium of the driver is worth it if you can't extract all of the performance (unless I'm just a cheapskate). If he wants to try using two 18" PRs like TC's own new design, he might be good to go, but then it becomes a box, even more expensive, and has a sharper rolloff. A ~175 liter sealed implementation with 1600 watts and some EQ would be pretty nice, but it's sealed, so he'd already be giving up some potential performance.
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