BIG Infrasonic Sonotube Setup Idea...need numbers/comments - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 122 Old 01-20-2007, 10:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay...so I'm intrigued with playing around with a Sonotube infrasonic setup. I have a large theater (8500 ft3) space that is well treated acoustically. I have a 30" space behind my screen wall with tons of room available (23' wide). I have a Danley Labs DTS-20 in there now and I don't happen to think it looks that large. The Danley is insanely good but it does roll off around 15 hz and Danley is so booked up with military and commercial work they can't currently build any custom larger versions...so I'm thinking of building something that will extend things WAY downward in the infrasonic range. So...I'm looking at building two BIG Sonotube subs to play around with. IB design isn't practical due to access. This is what I modeled in the Sonosub program...

Two 26" Sonotube at 7 ft tall each. 4' 10" long 6" ports. 7.3 hz tune. Looking at the TC Sounds TC-2000 woofers to play with (wish they made an 18" version). I have 10 ft of ceiling height to play with so I can go another foot or two in height if there are any benefits. Seen the other thread arguments about the LMS-5400 and it seems the jury is out vs the TC-2000 so for $300 vs $1100 a pop, I figured I'd play with the TC-2000. Open to other suggestions/comments.

Can somebody model this and let me know what I'd be looking at for output and linearity up into the 40-50hz range? If I had to build 1 or two more to get the output, I'd be up for it if necessary. Distance from the subs to the first chair is about 14'...25' to the rear row. Comment/Argue away.

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post #2 of 122 Old 01-20-2007, 11:17 PM
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This setup doesn't look very good. First, due to such low tuning the driver itself has to supply all the output until you get VERY low. It would hit max excursion above tuning at 11.5hz with only 400 watts of input. At this level you've only got about 103dB down in the deep infrasonics, sloping upward to 112dB at 80hz. Now, assuming there wouldn't be much signal down that low, you could probably give the sub about 700 watts to hit xmax at 20hz (you'd be hoping there wasn't enough signal lower to max out your excursion). This would give 106dB down low rising to 114. So the output levels aren't great. You'd need four of these subs at least to get any kind of real benefit from those deep freqs. In addition, you've got a 1st port resonance around 120hz, so you'd have to cross this thing very low in order to avoid problems there. Your 40-50hz would probably work.

My suggestion would be to go with the LMS-5400 instead. Give it 22cu ft of volume, a 12hz tune, and 2000 watts and it's WAY more powerful and nearly as deep as your 7.3hz TC2K design. For example, if you powered your TC2K design with 700 watts (and take a chance on overdriving it), the LMS setup would have as much or more output at every frequency above 8.3hz. At 10hz the LMS is almost 10dB stronger, and remains at least 6dB stronger at all higher frequencies. And the difference is far greater if you drive the TC2K at a safe 400 watts.

In short, this is too deep a tuning for the TC2K 15". You'd be much better off to stick with something around 14-15hz with that driver, or else move to the 18" LMS.
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post #3 of 122 Old 01-20-2007, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmmm. Probably looking at a 30hz crossover point. The whole point of the exercise is to build something that will provide more output below 20hz and flat down into the single digits. If it has to be the 5400's then so be it. Only thing is...I've seen several posts that claim the TC-2000 to be every bit as good if not better in a large Sonotube design. Looking at your numbers, that certainly doesn't appear to be the case.
14 to 15hz tuning...not what I had in mind since I have pretty damned strong output down to 16hz already. Any other drivers to take a look at...that are available and don't require favors or secret handshakes to get?

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post #4 of 122 Old 01-20-2007, 11:43 PM
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Assuming you don't want to install a Thigpen Rotarty Woofer or aren't into bass shakers, you would want multiple drivers to get you to spirited output levels in the single digits, in which case you'd have a sub system that would outclass your tapped horn above 15hz as well. But keeping the tapped horn and trying to build something that will excel only below 15hz using one or two conventional drivers is gonna be both difficult and wasteful, in my opinion at least.


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post #5 of 122 Old 01-21-2007, 12:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Actually, Ive got a bunch of Buttkicker LFE's installed in the theater. But there is nothing like excess. Thought about the Rotary woofer but if I can get something that gets me down into the upper single digits at WAY less than $20K, and it is fun to build...then I'm for investigating it. Would like to keep the DTS-20 in the setup...it is just so freaking GOOD from the cut off point on upwards into the 80 hz range. Sigh. Maybe it is time to look into a fan...

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post #6 of 122 Old 01-21-2007, 01:32 AM
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Why not just do a multi-driver sealed setup?
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post #7 of 122 Old 01-21-2007, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Why not just do a multi-driver sealed setup?

Or just don't fool around with taking up space for boxes and do IB.

-Chris B.



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post #8 of 122 Old 01-21-2007, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackyflipside View Post

Or just don't fool around with taking up space for boxes and do IB.

You may be able to use some of the extra room you have and make a backspace for an IB.

120@20@14'
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post #9 of 122 Old 01-21-2007, 10:34 AM
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Lot of options. Here's another crazy idea. I'd get rid of the DTS-20 because it's just
a 12" woofer in a horn and takes up space. Free up the space and make a bass
array using $200 - $300 woofers. You have to model this to see if it's possible to implement.

A sub array tower, 7 foot tall with four 15" woofers. Then stack four of these towers next
to each other behind the screen for a total of 16 woofers. This is portable vs. making a
fixed wall of woofers. 16 woofers can do some damage. If each woofer is 86dB sensitivity,
you can get a calculated 98dB sensitivity from mutual coupling. If you wired the array for a
lower impedance or did power amp distribution, you can get more sensitivity, maybe up to
104dB or higher depending on how nuts you go. Look into ported or sealed LT
and choose the power amplifiers wisely. I wouldn't spend $20k on a fan woofer.



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post #10 of 122 Old 01-21-2007, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cecaa850 View Post

You may be able to use some of the extra room you have and make a backspace for an IB.

I think you should edit your signature a bit so people understand a little better.

120db@20hz@14'

If you can do IB, do it!

-Chris B.



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post #11 of 122 Old 01-21-2007, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackyflipside View Post

Or just don't fool around with taking up space for boxes and do IB.

Well of course I'd choose an IB over anything else.

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post #12 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackyflipside View Post

I think you should edit your signature a bit so people understand a little better.

120db@20hz@14'

If you can do IB, do it!


If I changed it it would be:
110@10@14'

120@20@14'
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post #13 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

Lot of options. Here's another crazy idea. I'd get rid of the DTS-20 because it's just
a 12" woofer in a horn and takes up space. Free up the space and make a bass
array using $200 - $300 woofers. You have to model this to see if it's possible to implement.

A sub array tower, 7 foot tall with four 15" woofers. Then stack four of these towers next
to each other behind the screen for a total of 16 woofers. This is portable vs. making a
fixed wall of woofers. 16 woofers can do some damage. If each woofer is 86dB sensitivity,
you can get a calculated 98dB sensitivity from mutual coupling. If you wired the array for a
lower impedance or did power amp distribution, you can get more sensitivity, maybe up to
104dB or higher depending on how nuts you go. Look into ported or sealed LT
and choose the power amplifiers wisely. I wouldn't spend $20k on a fan woofer.

Well, that "just a 12 woofer in a horn" is giving me more output down into the range below 20 hz than I could ever possibly or sanely use and has an absolutely unreal sound quality to it, particularly in the mid bass region from 30 to 80hz that I seriously doubt I could duplicate. Hey, I'm the first person to admit that when it comes to designing a subwoofer I am NOT Tom Danley.
The only reason to consider doing something like this is to extend the LFE down below 15hz down into the single digits just for the sake of sheer excess.

IB isn't a consideration at this point...it would require a restructure of the ceiling above the screen wall...no can do.

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post #14 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 10:18 AM
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if you have the space for an IB, there is no better option. Multiple drivers in an IB, and you got what you are after.

edit-oops, I just saw your comment of IB not being viable. "doh!"


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post #15 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundood View Post

Well, that "just a 12 woofer in a horn" is giving me more output down into the range below 20 hz than I could ever possibly or sanely use

If the DTS-20 is that impressive to you, then you probably will find satisfaction
with the text book 'EBS' sonosub design using a $300 woofer and $300 amplifier.
You can make one and try it out. If you are happy, then sweet. Your quest
completed. But if the sub is not outputing as much as you want, then build
another. figure out how many EBS subs can fit in the room so you can figure
out what the upgrade path is -- just in case -- you need a few more.

[DTS-20] has an absolutely unreal sound quality to it

/joke

Why is the DTS-20 good if the sound is un real ? Don't you want
real sound instead ?

/end joke

particularly in the mid bass region from 30 to 80hz that I seriously doubt I could duplicate.

Bass horns have than effect on people. They output strong bass and midbass.
The DTS-20 isn't the only design that can do this. A text box bass horn will
do the same thing. Problem is that most people don't know how to build them,
but if you look hard, you can learn how. It's a more advanced DIY project.

The bass array using lower cost woofers can do the job of sonosub + bass horn
mainly because you are using alot of woofers, the more you use, the easier
it is to hit the goal.



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post #16 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I thought I'd try it out. Thing is, if I'm going to take the time to build a sub or two...or four...I'd want to build something that did go stupid deep. If I am going to do it and take the time...I'd do it once and do it right. That is the problem with running two companies...time is limited.

The DTS-20 does output strong bass...but it is the quality of the sound that is going to be hard to give up. It is just so freaking *right*. As mentioned before, I'd have them build a bigger version but they are just flat out too booked up and I have the urge.

Height and depth aren't much of a restriction. Guess the question is...what freestanding sub design (drivers, etc) will give me the deepest possible extension down into the single digits with the output I need, keeping within a size range of say... 5 ft wide by 8 foot tall by 2 1/2' deep. If I did two towers at 2 1/2 wide each, could use four if necessary. SonoTubes sound enticing but I'm open to other suggestions.
I am a Behringer Dealer so EP-2500's are available and I do Crown and QSC as well.

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post #17 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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One other thing...
Please spec vented vs. Sealed!

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post #18 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 03:31 PM
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Make one ported sonosub using the $300 woofer. Tune it to whatever makes you happy
and then install it and try it out. This wlll keep the project budget lean and you can check
performance to see if the output is sufficient and if not, just build a few more until it
reaches 'stupid deep' output that you want. One sonosub should tell you alot about
how two, three or four will perform. Worst case, if you think extra sonosubs won't work
based on the performance of the *one*, you can sell it to someone to get some cash
back, perhaps even profit. Then re-evaluate your plan again but this time you have
performance data to help you figure out what you really need.



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post #19 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 03:50 PM
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Now, this is the perfect app for the big dog 18" TC 5400 driver. And, the TC2K won't come close on any conceivable level.

I fits in a very small box. Build 4 boxes with 2 sets (4) of opposing drivers in each and power it with serious juice and you will indeed have 'stupid deep' (loved that).

I honestly would build 1/2 of that (8 drivers), powered by 20KW, L/T and go from there.

I also agree that if you did build a system like this it would so dominate the tower of power.

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post #20 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmmm. 8 drivers at $1200 a pop...plus wood...that adds up to...hmmm. At that point I am probably getting into dealer cost territory for a fan from hell setup and as good as the 5400's are...I'm just not sure I can get 1hz response from it. Heck, I'd probably settle for a meager 8 hz

Damn...I just WISH Danley had some time! I know they are capable of building something that would do it...a DTS-60 or some such. Maybe I'll try doing one or two of the smaller LLT sonotube subs. Worse comes to worse...it could go in my office as my computer sub (now THAT would be amusing!). Any other multi-driver ideas that won't run $10G's? I'm still open to suggestions/insanity.

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post #21 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 05:03 PM
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I'll say this about those LMS 5400 drivers again - by the time you start using multiples of other drivers to equal the price of a couple LMS drivers, distortion should no longer be a legitimate issue anyway. What you gain going the multiple less expensive driver route is a lot more air moving capability and more sensitivity. You can shift a lot of that overall sensitivity into the lower frequencies (unless you feel you need 130db+ levels ), and your goal of reasonably flat and solid extension to 8hz shouldn't be a problem at all. Let me know if the multiple LLT route interests you.

Just to get ya thinking, would you rather have one LMS 5400 18 and an ultra beefy amp (which would be required to extract the available performance), or something like 10 Dayton HiFi 15s with a relatively modest amp for the same price, which model with a much better sculpted LOW end.....


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post #22 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

I'll say this about those LMS 5400 drivers again - by the time you start using multiples of other drivers to equal the price of a couple LMS drivers, distortion should no longer be a legitimate issue anyway. What you gain going the multiple less expensive driver route is a lot more air moving capability and more sensitivity. You can shift a lot of that overall sensitivity into the lower frequencies (unless you feel you need 130db+ levels ), and your goal of reasonably flat and solid extension to 8hz shouldn't be a problem at all. Let me know if the multiple LLT route interests you.

Just to get ya thinking, would you rather have one LMS 5400 18 and an ultra beefy amp (which would be required to extract the available performance), or something like 10 Dayton HiFi 15s with a relatively modest amp for the same price, which model with a much better sculpted LOW end.....

Sure, I'd be game for lots and lots of drivers. I can hire somebody to run a router to do lots and cutouts with a template and jig for a few days and I have a spare Grizzly Dust machine in the garage that will help them breath. So are you talking two boxes at 5 drivers per box? And which Dayton drivers are we talking about? Would going to 4 boxes make sense? No wait...I take that back. Would 4 boxes with 20 drivers be more insane or can we change the tune lower with 2 really stupidly large boxes with 10 drivers per? Yes, I know...I'll have to hire a bunch of guys to get them into the room...I already had to do that with the 400 lb (delivered) DTS-20. That is what Labor Ready is for.

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post #23 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 05:56 PM
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Well I don't think we're talking about boxes or tubes anymore. We're basically talking about the realization of a ported IB, partioning off some of that space behind your screen as the enclosure. For 10 Dayton HiFi 15 drivers for instance, you'd want something ~212 cubic feet. Due to these drivers wanting large volumes and not a lot of power, overkill porting is easily accomplished in the form of two 12" diameter ports at 26" long each. Amp limiting is no longer a concern, as you should never be able to approach the output limits of such a design. So while all you'd need is 1000 watts for purely insane, eardrum bursting levels down to below 10hz, you could use more power if that makes you feel better

Now I don't know what your budget is, but 10 HiFi 15s and a decent pro amp should come in just under $2000. This is for ~212 cubic feet again - your space, assuming 8' high ceiling, allows for double that. So.....depending on your budget, you could go with even more drivers. This would be one SICK system, capitalizing where IBs fail, and eclipsing a LMS 5400 18 by so much that it's not even funny.


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post #24 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 06:38 PM
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The concept of a 'ported' IB is of course an oxymoron.

Anyone proposing same, obviously fails to comprehend many of the important fundamentals regarding proper subwoofer design.

Quote:


This would be one SICK system, capitalizing where IBs fail,

Since Mr Callas has never heard a large scale IB sub, it would be most difficult for him to know anything regarding the efficacy of one to reproduce large amounts of infrasonic content.


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post #25 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 07:07 PM
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It's hard to recommend a system when we have little data. This is what we know so far.

*Budget is probably under $10k
*There is room for lots of woofers
*"Stupid Deep" bass
*Project time: time is limited

So far so good. The part that has me scratching my head.

*"The Danley is insanely good"

If this is your bass reference and you think the DTS-20 is awesome, then I don't
see why you'd need more than two TC2k sonosubs. The DTS-20 is a simple
12" bass horn with big marketing claims;

The DTS-20 a.k.a. The Tower of Power is simply the most powerful, lowest frequency reproducing subwoofer on the planet. Solid output down to 15Hz, single digit distortion and incomparably low group delay put this amazing subwoofer in a class by itself.
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/DANLEY_dts20.htm

Specs are:
17hz - 100hz { -3dB}
15hz { -10dB }

1. Keep your DTS, augment with one or two sonosubs.

2. If you really want to thrash on people, get rid of the DTS and build a bass array,
a wall or seperate cabinets with with 8 or more front firing 15" woofers, but this is a big
project and time is limited, so this might not be an option as the cabinet construction
is more complex and time consuming to build properly. Budget $150 - $300 per woofer.

3. Go buy one of these and call it a day. If it doesn't work, send it back, LOL
http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=577



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post #26 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 08:23 PM
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Since Mr Callas has never heard a large scale IB sub, it would be most difficult for him to know anything regarding the efficacy of one to reproduce large amounts of infrasonic content.

Aside from a few that either have great room gain or means of EQing below 20hz, the fact of the matter is that the majority of IB in room responses I have seen just don't stay very flat into low frequencies. Sure, IBs can reproduce moderate to good output levels into single digits depending on the number of drivers used, but rarely if ever is response flat into such low frequencies. I also just recently gained some insight on the sound quality of a large scale, well regarded IB....I'll stick with porting


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post #27 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

It's hard to recommend a system when we have little data. This is what we know so far.

*Budget is probably under $10k
*There is room for lots of woofers
*"Stupid Deep" bass
*Project time: time is limited

So far so good. The part that has me scratching my head.

*"The Danley is insanely good"

If this is your bass reference and you think the DTS-20 is awesome, then I don't
see why you'd need more than two TC2k sonosubs. The DTS-20 is a simple
12" bass horn with big marketing claims;

The DTS-20 a.k.a. The Tower of Power is simply the most powerful, lowest frequency reproducing subwoofer on the planet. Solid output down to 15Hz, single digit distortion and incomparably low group delay put this amazing subwoofer in a class by itself.
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/DANLEY_dts20.htm

Specs are:
17hz - 100hz { -3dB}
15hz { -10dB }

1. Keep your DTS, augment with one or two sonosubs.

2. If you really want to thrash on people, get rid of the DTS and build a bass array,
a wall or seperate cabinets with with 8 or more front firing 15" woofers, but this is a big
project and time is limited, so this might not be an option as the cabinet construction
is more complex and time consuming to build properly. Budget $150 - $300 per woofer.

3. Go buy one of these and call it a day. If it doesn't work, send it back, LOL
http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=577

I'd be inclined towards option number 1 or 2 but I do intend to keep the DTS-20 and cross things over at 20 or 25 hz. I am a Danley Labs dealer and very happy with the product. As to #3, I suspect it is going to come in close to the price of the Fan...and I am quite sceptical it will outdo the DTS-20 from 20 hz on upwards...extremely sceptical. Again, I am exceptionally happy with the sound quality of the Danley. Anybody who knows Tom Danley or has heard that woofer will attest to just how good it is. It is far from just a "simple horn" anymore than the TC Sounds is just a big box with multiple woofers...check out the thread on the DIYaudio sub forum...there are some pretty serious DIY sub guys there and they are trying to figure out how he is doing it. It does have limitations however and I am simply trying to build an infrasonic sub system to take over where the limitations start and extend the frequency range down into the single digits. Danley has built larger versions of it that respond down flat into the 8hz range but they are too busy to take on any custom projects...so I thought a DIY infrasub might be a fun project.

Yes, my personal time is limited for the build but I can hire somebody to build the cabinets for me if need be. I know a lot of cabinet guys and I know two of the owners of the largest plywood company in town...so I can get the materials reasonably. If Sonotubes will do the job...I'd be up for doing them. If large cabs with multple drivers will do the job, then I'd be up for them as well. If the big cabs turn out to be better than the Danley, then so be it.

"Did you make 'em fine-ass-soundin' speakers over there what would sound gooder than hell comin' out of the back of my truck-boat-truck?"

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post #28 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 08:31 PM
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There's really no need to build lots and lots of cabinets if using a large amount of drivers. Build some manifolds and partition off some of that space behind your screen. Pressure = Force/Area. The force the drivers can reproduce is a constant, but you'd be using a very large area, so pressure isn't nearly as high as in something like a small sealed sub. Just use some 2x4s as bracing between the screen wall and rear wall and add some thickness and density to that screen wall and you should be fine.


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post #29 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 10:20 PM
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If you are a dealer and sell commercial product, then sometimes you don't
see the bigger rewards from DIY projects. It's ok to be happy with a DTS-20,
but there is no reason this design can't be easily beat.

Off the top of my head, Wayne's 12pi bass horn would beat the DTS-20 and it
only uses two modified stock woofers. Wayne offers the plans for free for
personal use and the woodworking skill level is higher than a simple sonosub
or DTS-20.

12 pi thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=12+pi

Wayne's 12pi bass horn won the Prosound Shootout, October 13, 2006
Tulsa Raceway.
http://www.prosoundshootout.com/

Only one 12pi hornsub was measured, but according to models, a pair should run 143dB maximum output at one meter and a group of 4 should provide 149dB, with flat response +/-2dB from 30Hz to 125Hz. Single horn response is very good, but it is improved even more in groups, with deepest 30Hz bass output lifted to the 100Hz level.
http://audioroundtable.com/PiSpeaker...ges/18100.html

DTS-20 @ 10 meters is 95dB SPL
12 pi @ 10 meters peaks at 117dB SPL

This is excellent performance from cheap woofers. Low distortion comes
from a push pull horn design and high power handling comes by doing
a heat exchanger mod to the stock woofer. Imagine what you can do
with high end woofers, lol ..................

check out the thread on the DIYaudio sub forum...there are some pretty serious DIY sub guys there and they are trying to figure out how he is doing it.

Here is the thread;
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...threadid=79102

Tom's explaination on 'how it works'
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/forum...osts=2&start=1

12 pi shootout pic;
http://prosoundshootout.com/Photos/2...SideLineup.jpg

Two 12 pi in the center. Looks sweet.

Place four 12 pi behind your HT screen with two LMS-5400 18" sonosubs
on each side of the bass horns and your audience will have a gender changing experience.




The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #30 of 122 Old 01-22-2007, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Now, this is the perfect app for the big dog 18" TC 5400 driver. And, the TC2K won't come close on any conceivable level.

I fits in a very small box. Build 4 boxes with 2 sets (4) of opposing drivers in each and power it with serious juice and you will indeed have 'stupid deep' (loved that).

I honestly would build 1/2 of that (8 drivers), powered by 20KW, L/T and go from there.

I also agree that if you did build a system like this it would so dominate the tower of power.

Bosso

here's something just thrown together:



this is what you need according to Thigpen RW (extrapolated):

100 dB --10 Hz
102 dB --9
104 dB --8
106 dB --7
108 dB --6
110 dB --5

if you can do (2) 2x18's then you are looking at 113 dB @ 8 Hz with no room gain factored in...of course these numbers are'nt real world and will be limited by your amplifier and electronics rolloff but it's safe to say that even with just one 2x18...you'll improve on your current -10 dB @ 15 Hz...don't know how you'll integrate this with the Danley but...

I'll say that 8 Hz is "definitely" possible because the important thing to note is the spurning of any subsonic filtering...let the beasts swing 4" to and fro...you'd be adding ~20 liters of Vd to the low end...40 if you do two of them...serious air shifting my friend...do note that this model is in no way gospel...just some food for thought...a lot will depend on room gain and signal throughput...but good luck

"Frequency response is NOT efficiency response."

 

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Klipsch RB-35's surround

Acoustech HT-65 center

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