DIY JL 12w7 & dayton HPSA1000? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 188 Old 02-01-2007, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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will the Dayton HPSA1000 be enough power to push the 12w7?
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post #2 of 188 Old 02-02-2007, 06:22 AM
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in what type of enclosure?

-Eli

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post #3 of 188 Old 02-02-2007, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Sealed, let me give a little background, I have a Sunfire True Signature sub that I've had for 7+ yrs, the amp on it is going out. They want 275.00 to fix it and I don't think that it is worth it, plus building my own might be a fun experience. Never done it before. I've heard great things about the JL w7 series subs and their Fathom line is spectacular from what I've read about them. I saw this plate amp at PE, and I'd like to go that route. I would also like to keep the enclosure as small as possible. The 12w7 only calls for 1.375 cubic feet of box space and that is relatively small, like my Sunfire, close at least. Any healp would be great!
Ty
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post #4 of 188 Old 02-02-2007, 08:52 AM
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I think you are going to be short on power in a sealed alignment. JL puts 1500 w behind the F112 to take full advantage of the driver.

Will it work? yes. Will it use the drivers full potential, I don't think so.

I thought about using 2 of the 13W7 drivers in my current project. I think there are several options out there that can give similar performance for less money.

not knocking the W series though.....

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post #5 of 188 Old 02-02-2007, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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What are you thinking?
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post #6 of 188 Old 02-02-2007, 09:08 AM
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There are several good options out there from several sources. I was back and forth between TC-Sounds and Adire. I wound up ordering 2 Adire Brahma 15D2s for about the same price as 1 13W7.

The Ws are great drivers. Spend some time doing some research about the alternatives and you might be able to save yourself some money.

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post #7 of 188 Old 02-02-2007, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyson1749 View Post

will the Dayton HPSA1000 be enough power to push the 12w7?

There is a bigger issue with the JL woofers. They designed then to have
a non standard impedance to encourage consumers to buy their power regulating car amps. Those are 2.47 Re, 3 ohm impedance woofers. You
have to be careful with this otherwise at higher power, your sub amplifier
if only rated for 4 ohms may hickup.

What you can try is a $250 Buttkicker amp. It's rated for 1kw @ 4 ohms
and more important, it has a 1.9kw @ 2 ohm rating. It might be the 'best fit'
amp for this woofer. $250 is less risk than spending $400 on the PE sub amp.



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #8 of 188 Old 02-02-2007, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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About other options I mean?
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post #9 of 188 Old 02-02-2007, 09:47 AM
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1000 watts RMS should be plenty for that 12W7 given the correct impedance.

I know the JL VW Golf Demo vehicle features 2 13W7s each powered by a single 1000.1.


Of course it would be nice to have some extra headroom .

I like the ButtKicker amp idea.
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post #10 of 188 Old 02-02-2007, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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The sub is rated at 3 ohms, on JL's site it says that any decent 4 ohm amp will be sufficient to push it, with that being said, the recommended power is between 750-1000w. What will the watts be on the HPSA 1000 at 3 ohms, or will it just not be able to handle it? If anyone has that amp with a similar configuration please chime in. Like I said, this DIY is all new to me so even dumb it down if you can! Thanks!
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post #11 of 188 Old 02-02-2007, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyson1749 View Post

The sub is rated at 3 ohms, on JL's site it says that any decent 4 ohm amp will be sufficient to push it, with that being said, the recommended power is between 750-1000w. What will the watts be on the HPSA 1000 at 3 ohms, or will it just not be able to handle it? If anyone has that amp with a similar configuration please chime in. Like I said, this DIY is all new to me so even dumb it down if you can! Thanks!

You can cheat specs alittle bit depending on how much the amplifier is over
engineered, but the over engineering variable is unknown, we can only trust the
ratings. That PE amp has a lowest rating of 4 ohms. If the amp blew up
and they asked you what woofer you got, they'd say 'yer fault' for connecting the wrong load impedance.

You can cheat the spec by operating the amp at reduced power. This requires discipline/experience to configure. You can analyze your subwoofer impedance,
meaning woofer + box interaction and plotting the real impedance by doing real tests.



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #12 of 188 Old 02-02-2007, 07:45 PM
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I wouldn't worry about that PE amps 4ohm rating anyways. Anytime you drive a speaker the impedance shifts +/- anyways.

If you want to be safe, get an amp that can deliver at least 1000 watts at 2ohms. The Buttkicker has your name written all over it.

I am very interested in seeing your results from the W7 in a HT setup. I willing to bet this sub in a properly tuned HT enclosure will dominate even the now infamous SS RLP15.
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post #13 of 188 Old 02-02-2007, 11:06 PM
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The JL is a $600 sub though, not really a fair comparison to the SS.
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post #14 of 188 Old 02-02-2007, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

You can cheat specs alittle bit depending on how much the amplifier is over
engineered, but the over engineering variable is unknown, we can only trust the
ratings. That PE amp has a lowest rating of 4 ohms. If the amp blew up
and they asked you what woofer you got, they'd say 'yer fault' for connecting the wrong load impedance.

You can cheat the spec by operating the amp at reduced power. This requires discipline/experience to configure. You can analyze your subwoofer impedance,
meaning woofer + box interaction and plotting the real impedance by doing real tests.

Any amp that will play at 4 ohms will pay at 3 ohms.
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post #15 of 188 Old 02-02-2007, 11:29 PM
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I willing to bet this sub in a properly tuned HT enclosure will dominate even the now infamous SS RLP15.

What would possibly give you that idea?
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post #16 of 188 Old 02-03-2007, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic1! View Post

Any amp that will play at 4 ohms will pay at 3 ohms.

Not true. Many amps rated for 4 ohms many not even play well at 4 ohms,
much less 3 ohms. It's an over engineering issue, an unknown variable. I already told you how to debug the problem if you want to make the attempt.



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post #17 of 188 Old 02-03-2007, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

What would possibly give you that idea?



1) The w7s history in IASCA, sweeping just about every championship crown available for their taking.

2) It's enclosure size requirements are quite less compared to it's alternative of a husky 3xx liter hot water heater sonotube.

3) The JL Audio Fathom 112 is close to the top of subs rated by CraigSub. It uses a very similar 12" W7 driver.

4) http://www.realmofexcursion.com/videos/JL/12w7.2.wmv
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post #18 of 188 Old 02-03-2007, 10:52 AM
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The w7s history in IASCA, sweeping just about every championship crown available for their taking.

JL Audio had a huge headstart.. as time passes other good woofers came to market.

Think Sony and Playstation vs. the late comer Xbox.

2) It's enclosure size requirements are quite less compared to it's alternative of a husky 3xx liter hot water heater sonotube.

The subwoofer design {woofer + enclosure} is a variable. You can choose
many options based on your needs. You are comparing a small sealed box
to a large ported design, two different approaches to solving a problem.

3) The JL Audio Fathom 112 is close to the top of subs rated by CraigSub.
That thread is useless to someone who wants to build their own DIY projects.


plus building my own might be a fun experience. Never done it before.
Spend some time analyzing different designs with different woofers. If you are
going to spend about $1k, don't jump in the fire so quickly. See if other options
might work. If you want to beat your Sunfire True Signature.. well it won't take much...



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post #19 of 188 Old 02-03-2007, 11:00 AM
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Well I look at linear displacement, and the 12w7 is at a disadvantage for sure, with .7liters less displacement.

1. This isn't auto sound, last time I checked.

2) And how does smaller enclosure size requirement = better sound quality?

3) Gee, I didn't know Craig had tested an Rl-p in a sealed configuration and compared it to any of the commercial subs. Not to mention the drivers in the home subs are indeed tweaked.

4) I don't care what kind of excursion video you have, JL lists the specs at 29mm linear excursion, less than 5mm more than the Rl-p, yet the Rl-p has a signifcant Sd advantage (806 vs 542).

I am not saying one couldn't subjectively prefer the Rl-p (hey, some people are crazy), but dominate when it doesn't even match up Vd wise?
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post #20 of 188 Old 02-03-2007, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Well I look at linear displacement, and the 12w7 is at a disadvantage for sure, with .7liters less displacement.

1. This isn't auto sound, last time I checked.

2) And how does smaller enclosure size requirement = better sound quality?

3) Gee, I didn't know Craig had tested an Rl-p in a sealed configuration and compared it to any of the commercial subs. Not to mention the drivers in the home subs are indeed tweaked.

4) I don't care what kind of excursion video you have, JL lists the specs at 29mm linear excursion, less than 5mm more than the Rl-p, yet the Rl-p has a signifcant Sd advantage (806 vs 542).

I am not saying one couldn't subjectively prefer the Rl-p (hey, some people are crazy), but dominate when it doesn't even match up Vd wise?



Not trying to start a war. I know many folks are partial on the extreme value of the RL-p drivers (me included).

On paper the RL-P appears to have an advantage, however reality beats theory every time. Anyone familiar with JL as a brand knows their specs are extremely conservative.

Aren't you just a little curious about the performance of the W7 drivers in HT? With the success of the F113 and F112 I certainly am excited to see if we could get a DIY version at a fraction of the retail cost.

On another note. I know the RL-P drivers were designed for car audio. I just wonder why no top 3 finisher at the IASCA finals was utilizing these drivers.
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post #21 of 188 Old 02-03-2007, 12:39 PM
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There is no war here, there is simply a discussion.

Quote:


On paper the RL-P appears to have an advantage, however reality beats theory On another note. I know the RL-P drivers were designed for car audio.every time. Anyone familiar with JL as a brand knows their specs are extremely conservative.

But you have no reality to back your opinion up? When has a 12W7 been compared to an Rl-p 15 in a fair and unbiased setup, and the 12W7 been declared the winner?

Conservative? Manufacturers aren't "conservative" with Sd ratings and one-way linear xmax ratings. As they say in one of their PDF files: Xmax specifications are derived via one-way voice coil overhang method with no correction factors applied.

Until you or someone else can explain to me with facts how the 12W7 could dominate the Rl-p 15, I'll deny it.

Quote:


Aren't you just a little curious about the performance of the W7 drivers in HT? With the success of the F113 and F112 I certainly am excited to see if we could get a DIY version at a fraction of the retail cost.

I never said I wasn't, but one thing you should understand about the DIY section. We don't "make DIY versions of commercial products" we just do it better from the start without regards to what the commercial folks are doing. We can make superior stuff for less all of the time, and plenty have done so.

Also, have you not done a bit more research? JL themselves have said that the drivers in the F112 and F113 have 5mm more linear excursion than the W7s available to the public. Watch the videos on the JL website if you're curious, they go to great lengthss to point out the differences between the 112 and 113 drivers compared to the standard W7s.

Quote:


On another note. I know the RL-P drivers were designed for car audio.

Who says? Even the SS website says " We are proud to bring you these stellar drivers and are certain that they will please even the most discriminating of car and home audio enthusiasts. "

Even still, it doesn't matter what a driver is "designed" for. Its either good or it isnt. The Rl-p is just basically a TC Sounds driver, and TC Sounds will tell you they don't build just Car or just Home Audio drivers. Why do you keep bringing up IASCA?
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post #22 of 188 Old 02-03-2007, 01:47 PM
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post #23 of 188 Old 02-03-2007, 02:18 PM
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Conservative? Manufacturers aren't "conservative" with Sd ratings and one-way linear xmax ratings. As they say in one of their PDF files: Xmax specifications are derived via one-way voice coil overhang method with no correction factors applied.


XMAX measurements are not consistant with each manufacture, ALMA has been trying to standardize this for years.
http://www.almainternational.org/con...dswinter04.pdf

Even so, lets say both JL and SS use the exact same XMAX measurement schema. XMAX alone means very little. For some very strange reason people assume output is tied directly to XMAX which is absolutely false. XMAX plays an important factor in sealed enclosures where linear cone travel plays a role. In ported enclosures XMAX typically won't be met, and if it does, it's probably because the driver is being pushed far below it's enclosures tuning frequency.

Quote:


Also, have you not done a bit more research? JL themselves have said that the drivers in the F112 and F113 have 5mm more linear excursion than the W7s available to the public. Watch the videos on the JL website if you're curious, they go to great lengthss to point out the differences between the 112 and 113 drivers compared to the standard W7s.


Absolutely my friend. I've done more than research, I was at JL's unveiling of the Fathom and Gotham subwoofers 2 years ago at CES. Take a peak at my pics:

http://www.derekreynolds.com/gallery...5/P1070157.jpg
http://www.derekreynolds.com/gallery...5/P1070158.jpg
http://www.derekreynolds.com/gallery...5/P1070159.jpg
http://www.derekreynolds.com/gallery...5/P1070160.jpg

Quote:


We don't "make DIY versions of commercial products" we just do it better from the start without regards to what the commercial folks are doing. We can make superior stuff for less all of the time, and plenty have done so.

No doubt about that. DIYer can achieve similar or better results compared to their commercial counterparts. My point here was that JL has jumped into the HT market, tweaking their flagship W7 drivers a bit to be used in HT applications. Since their W7 car audio drivers are available for purchase, wouldn't it be nice to have a DIY version of the F113 or F112 at a fraction of the cost.

Quote:


Who says? Even the SS website says " We are proud to bring you these stellar drivers and are certain that they will please even the most discriminating of car and home audio enthusiasts. "

Even still, it doesn't matter what a driver is "designed" for. Its either good or it isnt. The Rl-p is just basically a TC Sounds driver, and TC Sounds will tell you they don't build just Car or just Home Audio drivers. Why do you keep bringing up IASCA?

I bring up IASCA because this is the only sanctioned Sound Quality association that I know of where both SoundSplinter and JL compete with each other. If there was a Home Theater sound quality competition I would be siting them. Again my point was that SoundSplinter's RL-p drivers fall short of placing in such contests where as the JL W7 drivers dominate. And like you said, drivers can be used in both the Car Audio or HT world.
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post #24 of 188 Old 02-03-2007, 02:37 PM
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XMAX alone means very little. For some very strange reason people assume output is tied directly to XMAX which is absolutely false. XMAX plays an important factor in sealed enclosures where linear cone travel plays a role. In ported enclosures XMAX typically won't be met, and if it does, it's probably because the driver is being pushed far below it's enclosures tuning frequency.

Actually, xmax alone does mean something. I am not one of those people who feels that output alone is tied directly to xmax. If you noticed, I said "linear displacement" when comparing the two drivervs, not total displacement. I believe it is a far better way to compare driver to driver. Maybe you disagree, and thats OK.

Xmax typically won't be met? Even though you have zero proof of that, ok. Then the Rl-p still wins because it is capable of a higher linear displacement.

Quote:


I've done more than research

Then you know the differences.

Quote:


Since their W7 car audio drivers are available for purchase, wouldn't it be nice to have a DIY version of the F113 or F112 at a fraction of the cost.

Maybe for you, but not for me. I couldn't care less. I can get better drivers for equal to or less money and build a better sub in the process.

Quote:


Again my point was that SoundSplinter's RL-p drivers fall short of placing in such
contests where as the JL W7 drivers dominate.

And if these contests weren't car based, I might actually care.

Look, all we have are the numbers to go by, IMO. And when going by the numbers, I don't see anything that suggests to me that a 12W7 could dominate an Rl-p 15, or even best it.
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post #25 of 188 Old 02-03-2007, 02:57 PM
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For sake of argument. Lets say the 12w7 is a better woofer.

Who cares?

For an HT install, there is more real estate in the room than your car so
we don't care about the best woofer {as in driver}. Most people care about the best subwoofer {as in driver + enclosure}.

If you can afford a 12" $600 woofer, then you can afford two 15" $300 woofers
that would beat the JL audio 12" silly.



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post #26 of 188 Old 02-03-2007, 03:08 PM
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Thanks thylantr, for that does of actual reality.
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post #27 of 188 Old 02-03-2007, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

For sake of argument. Lets say the 12w7 is a better woofer.

Who cares?

For an HT install, there is more real estate in the room than your car so
we don't care about the best woofer {as in driver}. Most people care about the best subwoofer {as in driver + enclosure}.

If you can afford a 12" $600 woofer, then you can afford two 15" $300 woofers
that would beat the JL audio 12" silly.


This is a silly statement.

I care, for one.

JL makes good audio products. There are plenty of applications of DIY that don't include having an enclosure large enough for 2 15" woofers. It follows suit that it may be worth investigating the JL12W7 as a small sealed box DIY. Remember, DIY is DIY, not a synonym for LLT or IB.

I'm not saying the JL is a great speaker -the sims and the final result will speak to that. I'm saying that it may fit a need within DIY, and as such is worth examining. Remember, this guy is replacing a very small commercial sub.

-Chris

P.S. I have a LLT
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post #28 of 188 Old 02-03-2007, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

For sake of argument. Lets say the 12w7 is a better woofer.

Who cares?

For an HT install, there is more real estate in the room than your car so
we don't care about the best woofer {as in driver}. Most people care about the best subwoofer {as in driver + enclosure}.

If you can afford a 12" $600 woofer, then you can afford two 15" $300 woofers
that would beat the JL audio 12" silly.


I don't want this to turn into this driver is better than that driver argument. They are both great drivers.

What really intrigues me with the F112 and F113 is that it has outstanding SQ and SPL while maintaining a very small footprint in a sealed enclosure.

For many of us who are married, WAF is important. The same is to be said with folks with small home theater quarters. What I am getting at is that having a large ported enclosure may not be the most ideal fit for everyone. As such, paying extra for a subwoofer that has a smaller footprint that offers similar or better performance compared with other drivers that require large ported enclosures is an option that some may wish to explorer and pay extra for.

I also don't contest that 2 15" RL-P's will trample a single 12w7 in output. Thats a no brainier. If we were looking at this comparison only by SPL alone I'd be recommending a Digital Designs 10" 9510. This driver would easily put the RL-P and 12W7 on mute as it is designed for SPL. I think what people are discounting is the JL W7s sound quality characteristics. I hate to bring IASCA into this conversation again but there is a reason why people choose these W7 for SQ competitions. They sound better. That's a proven fact.
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post #29 of 188 Old 02-03-2007, 03:49 PM
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Quote:


I don't want this to turn into this driver is better than that driver argument. They are both great drivers.

Hate to remind you but you did say "I willing to bet this sub in a properly tuned HT enclosure will dominate even the now infamous SS RLP15."

Quote:


What really intrigues me with the F112 and F113 is that it has outstanding SQ and SPL while maintaining a very small footprint in a sealed enclosure.

And I argue that the two are distinctly related (SQ and SPL). I don't know why so many people don't compare the two. The drivers in the 112 and 113 are obviously very capable drivers and achieve more output at a given THD than their competition.

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For many of us who are married, WAF is important. The same is to be said with folks with small home theater quarters. What I am getting at is that having a large ported enclosure may not be the most ideal fit for everyone. As such, paying extra for a subwoofer that has a smaller footprint that offers similar or better performance compared with other drivers that require large ported enclosures is an option that some may wish to explorer and pay extra for.

Ok? I didn't think WAF was an issue in this thread till you just brought it up. But who says that any driver we are discussing requires a large ported enclosure? It just happens to be the norm around here, and for good reason. One could easily build an Rl-p or many other drivers in a smaller ported enclosure and still achieve excellent results.

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I also don't contest that 2 15" RL-P's will trample a single 12w7 in output. Thats a no brainier. If we were looking at this comparison only by SPL alone I'd be recommending a Digital Designs 10" 9510. This driver would easily put the RL-P and 12W7 on mute as it is designed for SPL. I think what people are discounting is the JL W7s sound quality characteristics. I hate to bring IASCA into this conversation again but there is a reason why people choose these speakers for SQ competitions.

And I think what you're not considering is that two Rl-p's wouldn't just beat a single 12W7 in output. If one has more Vd than a single 12W7, what do you think adding another will do? It would, and I'd put money on this, easily beat out a single 12W7 in output at a given THD. Thats just physics, as so many like to say.

And again, I wonder why you keep bringing IASCA into this. There is a good reason why most or almost all of us don't look at IASCA results when getting ready to purchase a driver.

Either way though, I think the OP should do what is best for him and his situation. I just found the "dominate" remark a bit much and had to comment on it, that is all.
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post #30 of 188 Old 02-03-2007, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Willd View Post

And I think what you're not considering is that two Rl-p's wouldn't just beat a single 12W7 in output. If one has more Vd than a single 12W7, what do you think adding another will do? It would, and I'd put money on this, easily beat out a single 12W7 in output at a given THD. Thats just physics, as so many like to say.

And again, I wonder why you keep bringing IASCA into this. There is a good reason why most or almost all of us don't look at IASCA results when getting ready to purchase a driver.

I think you read my response wrong. I am NOT contesting that 2 15" RL-P's will be louder than a single 12w7 in output. Thats for certain.

To the OP. Sorry for hijacking this thread. I am very very interested in seeing the success of your purposed project using a W7. Keep us updated with pics. PS. go and get that ButtKicker amp. It will be perfect with the 12W7. Extremely good value too
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