TC Sounds TC-5200 vs. LMS-5400 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys,

I was considering these two drivers as yet another option. They are both 18s but have very different design philosophies. One is designed for VERY small enclosure and the other for medium. Please take a look at the graphs and give me your thoughts.

* Will they both be suitable for HT?

* Is either one more desirable based on the profile?

* Will one be much more difficult to EQ properly?

etc....

I am guessing the LMS-5400 will be much easier to work with due to the smoother roll off. But, I have never gone from the simluated world to reality before. So, I was hoping for some constructive analysis and comments.

I also figured it would be fun to discuss the best TC Sounds has to offer!
LL
LL

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post #2 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 10:24 AM
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Between those two, get the LMS-5400, no contest.

Then get the most beastly amp you can afford.
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post #3 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 10:27 AM
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5400 will romp on it all day....but it's pricier. another 5400 vote here
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post #4 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Between those two, get the LMS-5400, no contest.

Then get the most beastly amp you can afford.

Thanks Wild/ssabripo

Of course that would be sooooo overkill for my 1800 cubic foot room it is even funny! But, I have always preferred the sound of larger drivers. I was considering going the Velo route again with a DD-18. However, for under $2k I could build something that will crush just about anything if ever needed for a larger more difficult space. It is tough to pass up the TC-3000s right now, but I would have to go with 15s instead...

I may have to go with two 15" 3000s anyway because of the wiring flexibility that quad VCs give me over the duals of LMS.

Of course there is a price difference and dual vs. quad VCs among other things.

Would anyone prefer using two 15" TC-3000s over an 18" LMS-5400 ?

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post #5 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 11:48 AM
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1. If you have real estate, an array of lower cost woofers is nice. There is array gain to exploit.

2. If you break one woofer, it's only $300 to replace vs. $1200. Lots of pros/cons to examine.

3. What do you want? It's not what others want



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post #6 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Thanks Wild/ssabripo

Of course that would be sooooo overkill for my 1800 cubic foot room it is even funny! But, I have always preferred the sound of larger drivers. I was considering going the Velo route again with a DD-18. However, for under $2k I could build something that will crush just about anything if ever needed for a larger more difficult space. It is tough to pass up the TC-3000s right now, but I would have to go with 15s instead...

I may have to go with two 15" 3000s anyway because of the wiring flexibility that quad VCs give me over the duals of LMS.

Of course there is a price difference and dual vs. quad VCs among other things.

Would anyone prefer using two 15" TC-3000s over an 18" LMS-5400 ?

there is no such as thing as overkill.....if anyone tells you otherwise, they are full of sh!t.

dont let the 15" deter you....for the price of a single 18" 5400, you can get 3 TC3000's, and in 3 nicely sealed cubes, with a good power (3 ep's or QSC's), and EQ + L/T circuit (like a DEQ2496), and you are still within the 2k budget.....that will be such a killer setup for you.

but as Thylantr says, its YOUR money.....you gotta do what YOU think you want. We are just giving suggestions brother.
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post #7 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Agreed. I appreciate the feedback and suggestions. It is tough to pass up the 3000s, especially at $299! Some of the point of DIY is to do it better for less. When the driver starts out at $1200, the less becomes less.

Unfortunately, they don't have an 18" in the 3000 series or I would be all over it. The 18" 5200 is OK, but not ideal for HT. So, then we come full cirle and dizzy.

I definitely agree on the no overkill mentallity. But, it sure would be the closest thing to it, LOL. This sub-ing stuff is addicting. It is amazing how most of us start out with a $200 sub and think it is fine. Next thing we know we are dropping $1000s, sheesh!

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post #8 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Unfortunately, they don't have an 18" in the 3000 series or I would be all over it. The 18" 5200 is OK, but not ideal for HT. So, then we come full cirle and dizzy.

I definitely agree on the no overkill mentallity. But, it sure would be the closest thing to it, LOL. This sub-ing stuff is addicting. It is amazing how most of start out with a $200 sub and think it is fine. Next thing we know we are dopping $1000s, sheesh!

Why are you stuck on the 18" size???? 3x15" will ROMP on a single 18", LMT technology and all. with 3 cubes of a TC3000 in a sealed alignment, with enough power, and the DEQ2496, you will have a system to have enough "good" energy in a room 3 times your size, so you are MORE than golden.

stop worrying about the size. with two of the cubes on the Left/right at the front, and one cube nearfield (behind the couch), properly EQ'd and with L/T to boost your low end, you are gonna be killing.

read the other TC 3000 thread, or look at Kramsroi's system and see if you dont believe.
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post #9 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

Why are you stuck on the 18" size???? 3x15" will ROMP on a single 18", LMT technology and all. with 3 cubes of a TC3000 in a sealed alignment, with enough power, and the DEQ2496, you will have a system to have enough "good" energy in a room 3 times your size, so you are MORE than golden.


I am not stuck on the 18" per se. I just prefer the sound of the larger drivers, maybe I am mental.

I do have a space limitation as well. So, it would have to be two 15"s in roughly 3.6 cubes each or 1 18" in 7.5 or so.
The nice thing about the dual 15" config is I have an extra $600 to play with right off the bat so to speak.

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post #10 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 12:14 PM
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Make one good subwoofer of reasonable size. 1x15 or 2x15 per box. This one sub
will hold it's own. It won't be too heavy, easier to move around, you can even sell it
if you get bored down the road. You can even add more in an array if you want more.
You should also budget big money for a quality amp(s), no entry level amps for those
higher end woofers

JL Audio Fathom uses a 750w thermal rated woofer with a 2.5kw class D amp.
They didn't install a 500w or 1000w plate in there for a reason



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post #11 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

Make one good subwoofer of reasonable size. 1x15 or 2x15 per box. This one sub
will hold it's own. It won't be too heavy, easier to move around, you can even sell it
if you get bored down the road. You can even add more in an array if you want more.
You should also budget big money for a quality amp(s), no entry level amps for those
higher end woofers

JL Audio Fantom uses a 750w thermal rated woofer with a 2.5kw class D amp.
They didn't install a 500w or 1000w plate in there for a reason that elude
the average DIY'er.

Good point on the amp. At least the savings on the 3000s help fuel the amp.

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post #12 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 12:27 PM
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Yeah, my last post didn't go through because of AVS issues, but I was gonna mention just going with multiple less expensive drivers.
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post #13 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Yeah, my last post didn't go through because of AVS issues, but I was gonna mention just going with multiple less expensive drivers.

Not a bad option really. I guess I could live without seeing a big old 18"er in the corner.

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post #14 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Not a bad option really. I guess I could live without seeing a big old 18"er in the corner.

Yeah.
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post #15 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 02:25 PM
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I noticed your thread in the commercial forum and I'm glad to see you made it here. Whichever drivers you decide on, you'll be able to get a lot more performance for the cost as compared to the Velo DD18 or JL13. Personally, the only way I could ever justify a $1200 driver is if you are absolutely, positively limited to a very small enclosure and still want great bass. If you could go even just a bit larger than "very small", then multiple less expensive drivers just makes more sense. Taking advantage of the 3000 sale and using them in a small sealed cabinet therefore seems to make more sense to me. You could get four of them for the price of a LMS 18".
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post #16 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 02:32 PM
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If your going for broke, then yes. For overall performance? $600 more? No. If you want a 18", www.Ficaraudio.com has proven 18's for much less including shipping.

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post #17 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

I noticed your thread in the commercial forum and I'm glad to see you made it here. Whichever drivers you decide on, you'll be able to get a lot more performance for the cost as compared to the Velo DD18 or JL13. Personally, the only way I could ever justify a $1200 driver is if you are absolutely, positively limited to a very small enclosure and still want great bass. If you could go even just a bit larger than "very small", then multiple less expensive drivers just makes more sense. Taking advantage of the 3000 sale and using them in a small sealed cabinet therefore seems to make more sense to me. You could get four of them for the price of a LMS 18".

Ya, I thought I would give the DIY route a try. I hate the thought of external amps and eq and cabling. But, I guess the enjoyment outweighs most of the inconvenience

Hey Steve, in your opinion knowing the advantages of the LMS series, what would be your cutoff for value? If I could get a 18" LMS-5400 for say $750, would you go that route or still go with 15" 3000s?

Joe

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post #18 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 03:32 PM
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Make an EBS subwoofer, one big monster and be done with it

The store bought woofers are just no match for the value of DIY :lol:



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The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #19 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

Make an EBS subwoofer, one big monster and be done with it

The store bought woofers are just no match for the value of DIY :lol:

Forgive my ignorance, but what is an EBS subwoofer? Probably not Extra Bass Sounds LOL

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post #20 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 04:03 PM
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-Extended Bass Shelf
http://www.diysubwoofers.org/prt/ported5.htm

And jpmst3 - If you really want a LMS-5400 for less $$$, you could try to organize a group buy.
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post #21 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

-Extended Bass Shelf
http://www.diysubwoofers.org/prt/ported5.htm

And jpmst3 - If you really want a LMS-5400 for less $$$, you could try to organize a group buy.

I never thought of the group buy option. Although, it is probably difficult to get enough people organized to make any significant difference in price.

That is interesting. I had never heard of an EBS design. I will read up on that one....


I could get a slightly used LMS for $750 locally, that is why I asked earlier about the cost threshold.

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post #22 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 04:54 PM
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That is a really good price for an LMS driver. Is it really an 18" LMS-5400 for $750?

If so, by all means, get it.
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post #23 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, it really is an 18" LMS-5400. That is one of the reasons I am so torn between dual 15" 3000s and one 18" LMS-5400. The 3000 is a fine driver by any measure. The LMS is an awesome drive, but not worth 3-4 times that price. But at a more reasonable price it is more tempting. It is just the damn sale on the 3000s that clouds the issue.

The interesting thing is that when I model it w/ 2400 watts and 8 cubic feet, it does not seem really outperform the DD-18 as measured by John E. Johnson's review. I would have thought it would have crushed it with that kind of power. Of course I have no idea what I am reading sometimes...

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post #24 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 05:22 PM
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I dunno dude. The 5400 does have LMS and almost 1/3rd the Le.

At that price, I'd go for it.

Edit: Is this the review you are talking about? http://www.ecoustics.com/secrets/vol...03-part-2.html

Uh, he took those measurements 4" from the Cone. what you see in models such as WinISD and Unibox is the predicted SPL from 1meter on a ground plane.

The 5400 would lay waste to the DD18...
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post #25 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 05:30 PM
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the 5400 is a power hungry dog......that LMT motor requires tons of power to operate, which is one of the weaknesses of this motor technology. However, it has a very low Le, it has ridiculous Bl vs Displacement characteristics, and if it matches or beats the older LMT15 drivers in terms of SQ (which I owned two of a while back), I can tell you that it should be a beauty of a driver. One thing we always seem to forget when we get caught in the numbers is the sound quality of a driver; there is a reason why the avalanche or tumults sound better than similar drivers.

My earlier recommendation stands: if you are paying regular price, then this is a no-brainer....get either 3 TC3000s in nice sealed cubes, power them with EPs or QSCs, throw a DEQ2496 for EQ+L/T, and place two up front and one nearfield, and you are in good shape.

ALternatively, the 2 Q18s for about $630 would also do wonders for you! Same thing, put them in sealed cubes, throw the aforementioned electronics, and you are ready to roll.

At $750, the LMS5400 18" is also an incredible attraction.....again, it has insane displacement, very high linear Bl vs Xmax, excellent SQ, etc....the down side, it needs power.
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post #26 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

I dunno dude. The 5400 does have LMS and almost 1/3rd the Le.

At that price, I'd go for it.

Edit: Is this the review you are talking about? http://www.ecoustics.com/secrets/vol...03-part-2.html

Uh, he took those measurements 4" from the Cone. what you see in models such as WinISD and Unibox is the predicted SPL from 1meter on a ground plane.

The 5400 would lay waste to the DD18...

Well, I am leaning that way now. I hate to spend the extra cash, but a few hundered in savings makes it more attractive.

Yes, that was the review. But, as I mentioned I am ingnorant to all the differences in the software vs. reviews and such. It didn't make sense to me either. Is 1 M vs 4 inch something like 6 db?

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post #27 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

ALternatively, the 2 Q18s for about $630 would also do wonders for you! Same thing, put them in sealed cubes, throw the aforementioned electronics, and you are ready to roll.

At $750, the LMS5400 18" is also an incredible attraction.....again, it has insane displacement, very high linear Bl vs Xmax, excellent SQ, etc....the down side, it needs power.

I am not familiar with the Q18s. I will check those out right now if I can find 'em. Ya, I would have change my thoughts on an amp and go to something like an EP2500 and put the full 2400 or therabouts bridged to that monster to make it go.

BTW, do you really think I would need the LT circuit with the LMS?

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post #28 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 05:48 PM
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But Sherv, he would need just as much power to adequately run three TC-3000s...

Its either three lesser amps for them or one good amp for the LMS-5400, IMO. And the 5400 route, he'd have one nice sized enclosure...

Quote:


and go to something like an EP2500 and put the full 2400 or therabouts bridged to that monster to make it go.

You're gonna need a far better amp for the 5400 than a EP2500.
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post #29 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

But Sherv, he would need just as much power to adequately run three TC-3000s...

Its either three lesser amps for them or one good amp for the LMS-5400, IMO. And the 5400 route, he'd have one nice sized enclosure...

You're gonna need a far better amp for the 5400 than a EP2500.

correct....but what I meant is, he would need roughly the power of what the 3 TC3000s would need (for that single LMS 18).

and yes, a single ep2500 would NOT be the key. The smallest I would go would be a Crown XTi4000.
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post #30 of 70 Old 02-19-2007, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I was assuming that 2400 watts (maybe overstating the factory claims) would be plenty for a measly 1800 cubic foot room. The models are saying 113 db at 20Hz before room gain!

I want a killer sub, but not to be killed in the process! Is there another amp that is that affordable (or close) with better performance? I would rather keep the current draw to minimum if possible as well....

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