$5K budget for subwoofer (can't stretch anymore) - what would you recommend? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.danmarx.org/audioinnovati...cs/Image10.jpg
Are there any nails involved or are they all glued?
What should the internal bracing of the design we are discussion look like? Can it be
the same as shown in the above pic?
I can call a local place like this http://www.martinandziegler.com/your_ideas.htm
and ask them about building an enclosure but I am very skeptical about how much attention a furniture manufacturer would pay to subwoofer enclosure. Especially making sure that it is air tight with no leaks.
How should I approach this problem. I think the biggest challenge for me more than anything else right now is enclosure. Without that, this is a show stopper. Tell me guys, what should I do?
Also, what are the risks involved in such a huge elaborate project? Other than hearing damage , I really want to weigh in the risks. Once started there is no turning back. Sense some cold feet here ?
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post #92 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 04:05 PM
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Elaborate? Nah, just pay a cabinet maker to do them for you with the modeled specs you give him, they should know how to brace it, just make sure sure they do so extensively.
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post #93 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Well, you need to make the cabinets plenty strong. There are plenty of pictures floating around of internal bracing in various forms. We can send some your way as we find good examples.

The smaller the cabinet the sturdier. Some recommend 3/4" MDF some say 1" and still others say 2X 3/4". If it it constructed properly a small cube ~21" or thereabout is VERY strong. I was going to double mine but quickly discovered that with triple front baffle and strong joints it was not necessary. After all, the JL is probably 1" thick and it houses the amp and all....

Just curious. Why MDF? Why not something else like plywood?
What is the recommended glue? Are any nails used?
Thanks.
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post #94 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 04:34 PM
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Jai I see you are over here snooping around too.

It really seems like DIY might be the answer. I'm thinking Sonotube....it is easier than building a box...

Everyone is telling me I can have a 15inch sub and amp that blows my 16-46+ out of the water for basically under $600...

I mean...how can I pass this up if it is easy....I have to read and learn alot more!!

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post #95 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok guys. I was able to get a hold of some local woodwork folks. I have to email them some rough specs tonight so I can get an estimate on cost.
You guys know the design now. It is going to be 1 18" LMS-5400, and 2, 18" TC PRs.
Here are my questions.

1. What should the dimension of the box be?
2. Should I go with 1" MDF?
3. Will the bracing shown here work? Why those specific shapes are used, how much space should be there between the back of the driver and the bracing and does it matter?
4. What type of padding should be used internally?
5. Again, should they be nailed or only glued? What glue to use?
6. Precautions on materials to use so that it is firesafe?

Thanks,
-Jai
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post #96 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Brad,
I think these guys here with their goodness in nature have converted me. This is so very exciting. Today is my day off and I am having all the fun in the world with this !! .
-Jai
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post #97 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 04:48 PM
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1. I haven't read the entire thread so I'm not sure of the alignment.
2. 3/4" is easier to get. Double it like Thomas did in the link I posted.
3. Any type of bracing will work those were chosen due to the design and placement of the driver and ports. Yours may be different.
4. A layer of acoustic foam or nothing at all.
5. Glue and clamps is the preferred method. Tightbond II or III.
6. It's wood. It will burn. So will other pieces of furniture in your house. Don't worry about it.

-Robert
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post #98 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 04:57 PM
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Jai I know....I'm going to seriously consider building a single 15inch TC-2000 or SS-RL-15 SonoZub and tune it to about 14-15hz.

I have to learn the ins and outs of the woodworking so I can properly build the end caps. Really thats the hard part...

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post #99 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Ok guys. I was able to get a hold of some local woodwork folks. I have to email them some rough specs tonight so I can get an estimate on cost.
You guys know the design now. It is going to be 1 18" LMS-5400, and 2, 18" TC PRs.
Here are my questions.

1. What should the dimension of the box be?
2. Should I go with 1" MDF?
3. Will the bracing shown here work? Why those specific shapes are used, how much space should be there between the back of the driver and the bracing and does it matter?
4. What type of padding should be used internally?
5. Again, should they be nailed or only glued? What glue to use?
6. Precautions on materials to use so that it is firesafe?

Thanks,
-Jai

1. The gross volume should be around 5.3 cu ft + what the braces take (probably around 0.1-0.2). The additional 0.3 comes from the driver and two PRs. You can choose the dimensions pretty freely, just make sure the drivers will fit and the gross volume matches.
2. Make it double 3/4". Then you can easily recess/embed the drivers (=cut the outer layer mounting holes a little bit larger).
3. A regular window bracing will be ok. Just make sure they won't hit the magnet/PRs.
4. Polyester foam/regular R13/eggcrate foam
5. Glued and screwed. The outer layer can be glued only.
6. Nope.
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post #100 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 05:32 PM
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Can he not move up to 8ft^3 net volume?
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post #101 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 05:38 PM
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I did some rough calculations based on the info give on TC-Sounds' website, and it looks like the width of the enclosure needs to be at least 23.5" (1" clearance) in order to fit that 10" wide magnet stack and two 18" PRs.

Therefore I would make the enclosure 23.5x21x21. I would also mount the PRs as far back as I could so they wouldn't hit the magnet when doing extreme excursion. More accurate modeling would require accurate driver/PR measurements from the TC. Too bad that they haven't published them.
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post #102 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Can he not move up to 8ft^3 net volume?

It sure would make this easier if he could. Also more performance.
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post #103 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Mayer View Post

I did some rough calculations based on the info give on TC-Sounds' website, and it looks like the width of the enclosure needs to be at least 23.5" (1" clearance) in order to fit that 10" wide magnet stack and two 18" PRs.

Therefore I would make the enclosure 23.5x21x21. I would also mount the PRs as far back as I could so they wouldn't hit the magnet when doing extreme excursion. More accurate modeling would require accurate driver/PR measurements from the TC. Too bad that they haven't published them.

Richard,
Thanks for the calculations.
If those dimensions you calculated are external, then subtracting 1.5 inches (2, 3/4 inch mdf boards) on both sides will result in net 3 inches less, so the internal dimension would be 20.5x18x18 that translates to 3.84 cu ft. Subtracting braces and driver (0.2, and 0.3) we end up at 3.34 right and what TC recommends for small box is 3.5 that's within 5 % which I am guessing is ok.
If we went with an external dimension of 27x24x24, we will end up with an internal volume of 5.62 cu ft which matches TCs recommendation http://www.tcsounds.com/lms5400.htm
for large box. Now we don't have to fight with space worrying about driver encroachment at max excursions.
Am I tracking with you?
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post #104 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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With holes on 3 sides, wouldn't bracing become a little tricky?
Can you illustrate the window bracing you have in mind and how they will be positioned around the holes also giving enough room for the driver and PRS.
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post #105 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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One good thing about this thread is that it will apply for someone who has half the budget too since we are talking 2 subs . I don't feel selfish this way .
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post #106 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Richard,
Thanks for the calculations.
If those dimensions you calculated are external, then subtracting 1.5 inches (2, 3/4 inch mdf boards) on both sides will result in net 3 inches less, so the internal dimension would be 20.5x18x18 that translates to 3.84 cu ft. Subtracting braces and driver (0.2, and 0.3) we end up at 3.34 right and what TC recommends for small box is 3.5 that's within 5 % which I am guessing is ok.
If we went with an external dimension of 27x24x24, we will end up with an internal volume of 5.62 cu ft which matches TCs recommendation http://www.tcsounds.com/lms5400.htm
for large box. Now we don't have to fight with space worrying about driver encroachment at max excursions.
Am I tracking with you?

Those were internal dimensions, so 26.5x24x24 external. That will give you close to 5.5 cu ft net volume.
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post #107 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

With holes on 3 sides, wouldn't bracing become a little tricky?
Can you illustrate the window bracing you have in mind and how they will be positioned around the holes also giving enough room for the driver and PRS.

Yes, it will become quite tricky. I would probably make only one window brace with an ~18" hole in it, positioned just in front of the PRs so that the active driver would be partly inside the brace. Can you picture it? Then I would add one or two braces in 90 degree angle to the first one. It/they would support the top/back/bottom panels. I would suggest two, then you could separate them by 7" (3x7"=21").

Here's a quick picture that I drew. That's the side view, PR is facing you (obviously the other PR is placed accordingly on the opposite side), active driver on the right, gray area is bracing.

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post #108 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Mayer View Post

Those were internal dimensions, so 25x22.5x22.5 external. That will give you close to 5 cu ft net volume.

Richard for external you have to subtract 3 inches since it is 1.5 inches for each wall (2 walls in one dimension).
The box I have in mind is 27dx24wx24h. This translates to an internal dimension of 24x21x21 inches that translates to 6.125 cu ft. Assuming brace volume and driver and PR volume like you said before, can be approxed to 0.5 cu ft which would result in effective 5.625 cu ft very close to what TC recommends for the larger box (6.125-0.5 = 5.625 cu ft). Is this calculation right and will that size box fit the driver and PRs comfortably.
The following was posted in the tc website

"Driver" "Cutout Diameter" "Basket Diameter" "Gasket Height" "Mounting Depth" "Displacement" "Weight"
18LMS-5400 16.80" 18.65" 0.65" 13.25" 0.16ft3 75.6lb


So if the outer board is cut to 18.75 inches (0.1 more than basket diameter18.65) diameter, and the inner board cut to 16.9 inches (0.1 more than cutout diameter) then the driver would seat nice and flush. The PRs will require very similar cuts.
Am I doing this right?
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post #109 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 07:23 PM
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Be sure to read the last few pages of this thread. Our friend Sherv cracked a window while testing. With your proposed setup you may blow out a wall.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=756408

Jerry the HT Nut
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post #110 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Richard for external you have to subtract 3 inches since it is 1.5 inches for each wall (2 walls in one dimension).
The box I have in mind is 27dx24wx24h. This translates to an internal dimension of 24x21x21 inches that translates to 6.125 cu ft. Assuming brace volume and driver and PR volume like you said before, can be approxed to 0.5 cu ft which would result in effective 5.625 cu ft very close to what TC recommends for the larger box (6.125-0.5 = 5.625 cu ft). Is this calculation right and will that size box fit the driver and PRs comfortably.

Sorry about the mix up, your numbers are correct. I'm 99% sure that the driver and PRs will fit in comfortably. That last % would require more accurate measurements/drawings from the TC.

Quote:


The following was posted in the tc website

"Driver" "Cutout Diameter" "Basket Diameter" "Gasket Height" "Mounting Depth" "Displacement" "Weight"
18LMS-5400 16.80" 18.65" 0.65" 13.25" 0.16ft3 75.6lb

So if the outer board is cut to 18.75 inches (0.1 more than basket diameter18.65) diameter, and the inner board cut to 16.9 inches (0.1 more than cutout diameter) then the driver would seat nice and flush. The PRs will require very similar cuts.
Am I doing this right?

Yes, that is correct.

See, it isn't that hard.
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post #111 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Mayer View Post

Yes, it will become quite tricky. I would probably make only one window brace with an ~18" hole in it, positioned just in front of the PRs so that the active driver would be partly inside the brace. Can you picture it? Then I would add one or two braces in 90 degree angle to the first one. It/they would support the top/back/bottom panels. I would suggest two, then you could separate them by 7" (3x7"=21").

Here's a quick picture that I drew. That's the side view, PR is facing you (obviously the other PR is placed accordingly on the opposite side), active driver on the right, gray area is bracing.


Got it. Awesome!
Would 3 braces in all be enough? Are they just for structural integrity or do they minimize internal wall vibrations? What exactly are the function of braces?
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post #112 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Got it. Awesome!
Would 3 braces in all be enough? Are they just for structural integrity or do they minimize internal wall vibrations? What exactly are the function of braces?

IMO 3 braces will be enough, especially when more would be pretty hard to fit in. Of course you can add some additional braces along the panels, similar to the AV123's BMF-1 subwoofer.



http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=13824&page=7

Braces will make the box stronger i.e. it will flex and vibrate less.
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post #113 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 07:38 PM
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Just so you remember, after you build these you will never want to buy another commercial sub again.... No matter how much you do, in a year or two you'll want to build more.
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post #114 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 07:39 PM
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Quote:


Assuming brace volume and driver and PR volume like you said before, can be approxed to 0.5 cu ft which would result in effective 5.625 cu ft very close to what TC recommends for the larger box (6.125-0.5 = 5.625 cu ft). Is this calculation right and will that size box fit the driver and PRs comfortably.

That is the recommended enclosure size for the 15".
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post #115 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Mayer View Post

Sorry about the mix up, your numbers are correct. I'm 99% sure that the driver and PRs will fit in comfortably. That last % would require more accurate measurements/drawings from the TC.


Yes, that is correct.

See, it isn't that hard.

Yes. The numbers are the easiest part. Now building that enclosure myself, well that is the difficult part for me. I get overly obsessive if I do it myself and it drains me, so it is best I hire someone to do it.
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post #116 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

That is the recommended enclosure size for the 15".

Check again.
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post #117 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Mayer View Post

Check again.

lol, my bad. I saw the sealed rec.

Well it should be larger. I am sure 5.5ft^3 tuned to 19Hz is great, but gosh darnit, it should be bigger and lower!
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post #118 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

That is the recommended enclosure size for the 15".

TC says it is 5.6 cu ft for the 18". I am a bit confused. http://www.tcsounds.com/lms5400.htm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

TC says it is 5.6 cu ft for the 18". I am a bit confused. http://www.tcsounds.com/lms5400.htm

Don't mind me.
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post #120 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Nut View Post

Be sure to read the last few pages of this thread. Our friend Sherv cracked a window while testing. With your proposed setup you may blow out a wall.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=756408

You guys are getting me too excited you know
After this, I will not upgrade subs for a long long long time. I want this done and enjoy it. Any of you folks here in Portland, OR?
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