$5K budget for subwoofer (can't stretch anymore) - what would you recommend? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the pointers. What exactly do you mean by overlapping joints. The term is overloaded?
Secondly, what tool do you guys use to cut such large holes like 18 or 19". MY friend's tool cuts only straight lines.
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post #182 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
what tool do you guys use to cut such large holes like 18 or 19". MY friend's tool cuts only straight lines.

I created 4 16 11/16" holes for 18" drivers using a Plunge Router and a Circle Jig.

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post #183 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Thanks for all the pointers. What exactly do you mean by overlapping joints. The term is overloaded?
Secondly, what tool do you guys use to cut such large holes like 18 or 19". MY friend's tool cuts only straight lines.

Jigsaw, rotary tool...

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post #184 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 12:18 PM
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Yep, I use a Jasper circle cutting jig with a router.

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=3582
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post #185 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 12:25 PM
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BTW,

don't forget you might want to put a 1/4" layer of plywood inside if your using MDF..

This will give the T-Nuts something to bite into..

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....ctGroup_ID=829
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post #186 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jose_L View Post

BTW,

don't forget you might want to put a 1/4" layer of plywood inside if your using MDF..

This will give the T-Nuts something to bite into..

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....ctGroup_ID=829

Where do these T-nuts go in the assembly. I guess I missed it somewhere earlier in the thread?
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post #187 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 12:48 PM
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T-nuts can be used to hold the driver in the box along with some machine screws.
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post #188 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 01:05 PM
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Look at post #4 in the DIY Gallery stickey thread, you'll see what I'm talking about.
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post #189 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Where do these T-nuts go in the assembly. I guess I missed it somewhere earlier in the thread?

When the holes are drilled for mounting the driver, a t-nut goes on the inside of the enclosure. Those nuts typically have some teeth on them to help bite into the wood stop them from spinning.

The bolt goes through the driver mounting flange and wood and threads into the nut on the inside of the cabinet. It makes for a very strong mounting mechanism and helps get things air tight.

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post #190 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 01:16 PM
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a good idea is to read some of the build threads (even sonosub threads will help you get ideas on basics like t-nuts, cutting the driver holes, etc).....you can see the ones from parboy, willD, stevenn, myself (the two towers), and others.

I think you really need to spend a few hours and browse thru those, as you will see plenty of good stuff like how to cut the holes, joints, glueing, veneering, etc, etc, etc.
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post #191 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

a good idea is to read some of the build threads (even sonosub threads will help you get ideas on basics like t-nuts, cutting the driver holes, etc).....you can see the ones from parboy, willD, stevenn, myself (the two towers), and others.

I think you really need to spend a few hours and browse thru those, as you will see plenty of good stuff like how to cut the holes, joints, glueing, veneering, etc, etc, etc.

Agreed. Time is on your side since you don't have the drivers/PRs yet.

Take some time out and peruse some of build threads. You can generally find just about everything you need here and there.

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post #192 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. Will do as recommended.
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post #193 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 02:17 PM
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1. Glue. (Based on recommendation here, I am going with Titebond II, http://www.mikestools.com/5006-Tite...Glue-1-Gal.aspx)
Will 1 gallon be enough (too much?). I have to glue boards together so that would take up a lot too. I already have a brush to spread the glue.

2. Should I order clamps? Or can I simply use small nails to hold them in place while the glue settles and sticks? I am thinking clamps that will put some pressure and do a better job.
A pair of these
http://www.mikestools.com/Ks-150-Gr...Box-Clamps.aspx
gets expensive but will do a great job. Any other suggestions.

3. For MDF and plywood, is home depot a good place or is there a special type of MDF and plywood I need to look for? I am thinking MDF on the outside, so it is easier to sand and finish and plywood on the inside. SHould I go with 13 ply?

1) 1 Gallon is overkill. Heck, even a quart is too much. Remember, you are not soaking the wood in glue (there should barely be any squeeze-out). Titebond II is fine for this application.
2) For that price I would get Bessy K-bodies (sold on Amazon and WWing stores). When I build speaker cabinets I primarily use band clamps. Note that you'll need to glue up 4 sides at once... as a beginner you may prefer to glue 1 edge at a time.
3) Home Depot is a bad spot to get plywood... it is very low quality (yes, even the supposedly voidless stuff). I would strongly encourage you to go to a place that supplies cabinet makers and get a couple sheets of "Apple ply" or other high grade birch plywood. As for MDF, their are different grades... you want the "uniform" grade (uniform density throughout).

One option you might consider is to use a Kreg jig (rocket version is fairly cheap). Using pocket holes to screw everything together eliminates the need for clamps and allows you to build the cabinet very quickly & with lots of strength. $50 gets you the jig, clamp, and bits. You or your painter can easily Bondo these holes flush.
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post #194 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Thanks for all the pointers. What exactly do you mean by overlapping joints.

Since you won't be building for a while, and I'll be posting updates on my build this weekend - you'll see what I mean then. I plan on posting a 3D sketch of the build, which should highlight these sorts of details.
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post #195 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I am mildly concerned about the sound quality. We first started with a smaller box and sealed. Now we have 2 large PRs and the box size is 25x25x28. Sound Quality is top priority for me. If SQ is not as good as the JL f113 then SPL is no good for me. Please tell me folks, will this design give me as good an SQ as the f113? Note that I will have 2 of these babies in the room. So SPL may not be an issue at all. SQ is.
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post #196 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

I am mildly concerned about the sound quality. We first started with a smaller box and sealed. Now we have 2 large PRs and the box size is 25x25x28. Sound Quality is top priority for me. If SQ is not as good as the JL f113 then SPL is no good for me. Please tell me folks, will this design give me as good an SQ as the f113? Note that I will have 2 of these babies in the room. So SPL may not be an issue at all. SQ is.

Well, honestly Jai, I still prefer the simple sealed design.

Granted, sealed will require more power and EQ for the same SPL.

I am sure most will disagree with me on this.

Of course, there is no right answer here and PRs do not mean lesser SQ either.

With simple 3.5 cube cabinets you will still be around double the output with excellent SQ.

My philosophy is, while the PRs are really cool and all, why make it more complicated than it has to be and add more variables to the equation? That is my $.02 worth.

I think when this kind of budget is available people tend to recommend quite a bit more options than usual...because it is different and is not done frequently. Hell, I always wanted to do a PR sub as well...

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post #197 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Well, honestly Jai, I still prefer the simple sealed design.

Granted, sealed will require more power and EQ for the same SPL.

I am sure most will disagree with me on this.

Of course, there is no right answer here and PRs do not mean lesser SQ either.

With simple 3.5 cube cabinets you will still be around double the output with excellent SQ.

My philosophy is, while the PRs are really cool and all, why make it more complicated than it has to be and add more variables to the equation? That is my $.02 worth.

I think when this kind of budget is available people tend to recommend quite a bit more options than usual...because it is different and is not done frequently. Hell, I always wanted to do a PR sub as well...

I think I got carried away in the excitement of PRs. Now I am trying to think more objectively. With two of these sealed, I am not going to be lacking SPL per say. I want to collect more opinions and I know there will be no consensus but at least I will make a decision based on more information.
BTW, with ported subs I used to experience a feeling of a "gush of air", with pant flapping etc. This was with an older SVS Plus/2 in a much smaller room. Could it have been an effect of ported subs or was it just higher SPL?
The sealed f113s did not do any of that "pant flapping" but they indeed pressurized the room. This will be for 90% HT and 10% music.
We are not going back to square one, here but when a thought comes up it is better to speak out. No meager amount here, so I hope you guys don't mind me asking this so late in the thread.
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post #198 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 04:35 PM
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If you are going to go sealed, I'd make them larger than 3.5 cu. At least 6 cu ft per box would be my rec. That way you don't need as much amp power to extend them low enough.
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post #199 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

I think I got carried away in the excitement of PRs. Now I am trying to think more objectively. With two of these sealed, I am not going to be lacking SPL per say. I want to collect more opinions and I know there will be no consensus but at least I will make a decision based on more information.
BTW, with ported subs I used to experience a feeling of a "gush of air", with pant flapping etc. This was with an older SVS Plus/2 in a much smaller room. Could it have been an effect of ported subs or was it just higher SPL?
The sealed f113s did not do any of that "pant flapping" but they indeed pressurized the room. This will be for 90% HT and 10% music.
We are not going back to square one, here but when a thought comes up it is better to speak out. No meager amount here, so I hope you guys don't mind me asking this so late in the thread.

No problem, that is another reason that I prefer the small sealed option. You can more easily and cost effectively add another if you should need to (god help your ears).

The ported subs may push around more in a confined space because of the port flow and not just the front wave from the driver. I still prefer sealed, it just seems a little tighter to me.

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post #200 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Mayer View Post

If you are going to go sealed, I'd make them larger than 3.5 cu. At least 6 cu ft per box would be my rec. That way you don't need as much amp power to extend them low enough.


Well, it is all preference at that point. There is not a whole lot of benefit to much larger unless you want single digit extension. He has plenty of power on tap and the smaller box yields some benefits too...

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post #201 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Well, it is all preference at that point. There is not a whole lot of benefit to much larger unless you want single digit extension. He has plenty of power on tap and the smaller box yields some benefits too...

No, it's not about single digit extension. A twice as large box will give one 3 dB more low end sensitivity. That means lower power compression, lower distortion, and 3 dB higher output at the same amp power.
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post #202 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Mayer View Post

No, it's not about single digit extension. A twice as large box will give one 3 dB more low end sensitivity. That means lower power compression, lower distortion, and 3 dB higher output at the same amp power.

Ya, ya, I agree. It depends on where on the curve you measure from too, it does yield better low end, no doubt. Everything has a tradeoff as well.

But, I was going by his orignally size which I thought was around 24" outside dimensions...

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post #203 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 06:56 PM
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Here is an idea .... and I know I am late to the game.

Order the 2 5400 drivers..... as well as all of the req'd Passives.

Have you cabinet maker build you two "rough" black boxes ... one built to the specs for the PR-box and one for a smaller sealed box.

Install, listen, EQ, enjoy .... use them for a few weeks and decide which one YOU (not us) like the sound of more.

Then have your cabinet builder assemble the final finished cabinets in the alignment you choose.

Look at it this way ... you need the drivers and amps (100%, so no $$ risked there) ... the PRs are spendy (sell them for 10% off to move them fast if you don't need em, a whopping $50 risk) ... black boxes cost you maybe $100 each ($200 casualty)

So .. you spend $250 to have the peace of mind knowing you chose and built exactly what you wanted.


- Jim

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post #204 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jjw350z View Post

Here is an idea .... and I know I am late to the game.

Order the 2 5400 drivers..... as well as all of the req'd Passives.

Have you cabinet maker build you two "rough" black boxes ... one built to the specs for the PR-box and one for a smaller sealed box.

Install, listen, EQ, enjoy .... use them for a few weeks and decide which one YOU (not us) like the sound of more.

Then have your cabinet builder assemble the final finished cabinets in the alignment you choose.

Look at it this way ... you need the drivers and amps (100%, so no $$ risked there) ... the PRs are spendy (sell them for 10% off to move them fast if you don't need em, a whopping $50 risk) ... black boxes cost you maybe $100 each ($200 casualty)

So .. you spend $250 to have the peace of mind knowing you chose and built exactly what you wanted.


- Jim

That is the best idea I have heard all day.

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post #205 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

I am mildly concerned about the sound quality. We first started with a smaller box and sealed. Now we have 2 large PRs and the box size is 25x25x28. Sound Quality is top priority for me. If SQ is not as good as the JL f113 then SPL is no good for me. Please tell me folks, will this design give me as good an SQ as the f113? Note that I will have 2 of these babies in the room. So SPL may not be an issue at all. SQ is.

There is absolutely no reason the PRs won't have excellent SQ.

See, with the size of your room, I say why restrict these drivers anymore than you must. By sealing them, you're limiting their low-end output by quite a bit. IMO, it isn't about just output, but not having to use nearly as much EQ to get "flatter" extension.
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post #206 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Dear DIYers,
I found a great guy to help me out with the cabinet work. His name is Neel
http://www.bigbranchwoodworking.com/cabinetry.htm
and he has a passion for his work. I love such people. He was very patient with me and I think I have found the right person.
I am sending him this schematic. Please examine every dimension and let me know where I screwed up. I have taken into consideration every dimension posted here http://www.tcsounds.com/lms5400.htm
I need several pairs of eyes looking at my schematic to make sure that I got the calculations right. Last thing I want is a finished cabinet and find that the driver and PRs don't fit . That would be a very very sad story for all of you.

"Now is the time" !!!


Please check, double, triple check and let me know if I am on the right track. You know I am trusting you folks with $5K . Help me out.
Thanks a million!
-Jai
LL
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post #207 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Dear DIYers,
I found a great guy to help me out with the cabinet work. His name is Neel
http://www.bigbranchwoodworking.com/cabinetry.htm
and he has a passion for his work. I love such people. He was very patient with me and I think I have found the right person.
I am sending him this schematic. Please examine every dimension and let me know where I screwed up. I have taken into consideration every dimension posted here http://www.tcsounds.com/lms5400.htm
I need several pairs of eyes looking at my schematic to make sure that I got the calculations right. Last thing I want is a finished cabinet and find that the driver and PRs don't fit . That would be a very very sad story for all of you.

"Now is the time" !!!


Please check, double, triple check and let me know if I am on the right track. You know I am trusting you folks with $5K . Help me out.
Thanks a million!
-Jai

Okay, I can help you out by drawing it out in CAD... I just don't completely understand the drawing yet. Do you have the wall thickness determined?

Also, is this just for the test boxes?
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post #208 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

That is the best idea I have heard all day.

Thank you.

Jcomp ... please consider my idea ... it saves you the headache of "not knowing" if you chose the right one.

Jim
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post #209 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 11:02 PM
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From my first glances, your side cutout says 16", the LMS 5400 18" is supposed to have a 16.8" cutout and the passive radiators are a tad bigger at 16.95" so you will need to specify that the side cutouts are bigger. I do not know a whole lot about bracing a project like this but you may want something going down the middle of the cabinet where the three drivers converge. I am sure someone else will chime in who knows more about this.
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post #210 of 849 Old 04-19-2007, 11:04 PM
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How about spend $1000 on a subwoofer and feed a couple dozen starving children?
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