$5K budget for subwoofer (can't stretch anymore) - what would you recommend? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I dare to post here since I am not a DIY guy but thought would check the waters.
I have owned several commercial subs in the past including the legendary Danley DTS-20 and just sold dual JL audio f113s.
With $5K in hand. Please recommend some good DIY solutions.
I don't have any wood working tools, neither am I skilled in woodwork. I can learn very quickly and I am good with mechanical stuff (assembly etc). I have built a tube pre-amp, HT rack, assembled an external Xover etc but never a sub.

Here is the criteria.
1. I prefer duals (they give me the best FR over a wider LP).
2. The subs should fit where the f113s were (Please see attached pic of my HT)
3. They should not be large cylinders but good looking boxes.
4. Uncompromising SPL and SQ (room is about 7000 cu ft effective, LP is about 15 ft).
5. Can be active or passive
6. Can be sealed or ported
7. Cannot exceed $5K.
8. Flat FR (+- 3dB from 16Hz to 80Hz). Should not compress early and should be capable of huge SPL. Would like at least 120dB at LP. Dual JLs did close to 118dB at LP with some movies (LOTR, Eragon etc).

What are my options? What would you do?
Thanks for your help,
-Jai
LL
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post #2 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:06 AM
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8 x 18" drivers from FI car audio

Four on each side of the room. However many Behringers are needed to power them. And a BASSIS to LT everything.

There you go, and be the envy of every audio geek.


Edit: the enclosures would need to be tall, though, inless you built a smaller enclosure and push pull mounted the drivers.

Edit2: Your past subs will be baby farts in comparison.

-Chris B.



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post #3 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:14 AM
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There are many options one could go with. Meeting your criteria with that budget is easy.
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post #4 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

There are many options one could go with. Meeting your criteria with that budget is easy.

I know, but he says he does want small... which makes it slightly tougher.

-Chris B.



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post #5 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
8 x 18" drivers from FI car audio

Four on each side of the room. However many Behringers are needed to power them.

That is only about $3200 if its an array. Its double my system and mine was around $1600 including wood, EQ, etc.

He only needs 2 EP2500s, each one drives 2400 Watts at 2 ohms into 4 Q18s.

My current setup is is 4 Q18s in an IB array powered by one EP2500 bridged 2ohms 2400 Watts.

If he wants to spend $5000, he could upgrade the amp (better ones with less noise) and he could go with the best drivers out there. Q18s give great displacement but there are drivers that have lower Q.

I love my system, I can not imagine doubling it. I have a large room (40x30x12) and I can shake the house with my system.

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post #6 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by crackyflipside View Post

I know, but he says he does want small... which makes it slightly tougher.

Slightly, I suppose, but with that budget? Hahaha.
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post #7 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow folks. So many replies so quickly. I think with this kind of support I maybe successful in DIY. About the size, it really does not matter that much as long as it fits in the spot where the dual f113s are. An acceptable size is say 22wx27dx46h. Is that too small? It can go taller if need be. I do worry about looks though. The finish should be beautiful. If there are readymade boxes or if I can hire someone to do it that is also fine.
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post #8 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Wow folks. So many replies so quickly. I think with this kind of support I maybe successful in DIY. About the size, it really does not matter that much as long as it fits in the spot where the dual f113s are. An acceptable size is say 22wx27dx46h. Is that too small? It can go taller if need be. I do worry about looks though. The finish should be beautiful. If there are readymade boxes or if I can hire someone to do it that is also fine.

Once you get a design hammered out, you could have a cabinet shop make something for you and finish to taste.

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post #9 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:30 AM
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(2) dual opposing sealed 15" TC3000s, 2 EQs, and 2 QSC PLX 3402s.

$1200 in drivers
~$1200 in amps
$300 for 2 EQs if you use BFDs

That leaves you $2300 for enclosures.

-Eli

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post #10 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:32 AM
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That leaves you $2300 for enclosures.

Easily enough to pay a cabinet builder to construct some beautifully veneered enclosures.
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post #11 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJEli View Post

(2) dual opposing sealed 15" TC3000s, 2 EQs, and 2 QSC PLX 3402s.

$1200 in drivers
~$1200 in amps
$300 for 2 EQs if you use BFDs

That leaves you $2300 for enclosures.

-Eli

I like that Eli.

Or what about just two 18" LMS-5400s in 3.5 cubed boxes, one on each side and about 6000 watts.

After all, he is only comparing them to sealed 13.5" drivers. An 18" LMS should trump a JL 13.5 no problem and still be very small and easily moveable at say 110-125 lbs a piece.

Simple design, simple execution, tons of savings. The whole setup would not much more than ONE F113 with EQ and and multi-Kw amp.

And, if he needs more output, (and new inner ears) he can always stack another...

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post #12 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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One more thing. I already have an EQ (Rane PE-17) and all the necessary software and mic for measuring FR. Anyone know of good cabinet shops in Portland, OR? Also, I don't want it to be too heavy. Anything more than 150lbs each is what I call too heavy.
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post #13 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJEli View Post

(2) dual opposing sealed 15" TC3000s, 2 EQs, and 2 QSC PLX 3402s.

$1200 in drivers
~$1200 in amps
$300 for 2 EQs if you use BFDs

That leaves you $2300 for enclosures.

-Eli

I run in dual mono mode. So what comes out of the Rane PE-17 EQ is split. I measure FR at LP and in my room there was only one dominant peak which I tame with about -6dB with the Rane. The other peaks were all under 4dB. Do the DIY designs you suggest require heavy EQing? The reason I ask is, some subs like the horn loaded B-DEAPS roll of early and they need to be placed in a special way and with heavy EQing installers try to achieve flatter FR. I prefer not to do heavy EQing.
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post #14 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

One more thing. I already have an EQ (Rane PE-17) and all the necessary software and mic for measuring FR. Anyone know of good cabinet shops in Portland, OR? Also, I don't want it to be too heavy. Anything more than 150lbs each is what I call too heavy.

Well, then I would seriously consider my suggestion.

I was after the similiar goals, high as possible SQ with reasonable extension and enclosure size. SPLs are easy with large drivers and tons of power.

Anything sealed is going to need a fair amount of EQ, hence the 2500 watt amps in the F113s, they are HEAVILY EQed internally...

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post #15 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Anything sealed is going to need a fair amount of EQ, hence the 2500 watt amps in the F113s, they are HEAVILY EQed internally...

Correct. You did not see the low end EQ in the JLs because it was "built in". Depending on the design, you can figure on needing about 6-12db of boost split up on the low end. (<35hz)

One thing I REALLY like about the SMS-1 is the ability to eq down to 15hz. Most PEQs will only allow their lowest filter at 20hz.

-Eli

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post #16 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

I like that Eli.

Or what about just two 18" LMS-5400s in 3.5 cubed boxes, one on each side and about 6000 watts.

After all, he is only comparing them to sealed 13.5" drivers. An 18" LMS should trump a JL 13.5 no problem and still be very small and easily moveable at say 110-125 lbs a piece.

Simple design, simple execution, tons of savings. The whole setup would not much more than ONE F113 with EQ and and multi-Kw amp.

And, if he needs more output, (and new inner ears) he can always stack another...

We also need to factor in the cost for grills that fit well and do the job of protecting the driver and should look good too. When you say 3.5 cubed boxes, what exactly do you mean?
Also, I have only 1 dedicated 20amp circuit and another shared 15 amp (lights that don't get used during HT so the full juice from the 15amp is available on demand) circuit. Won't that be too less for a whopping 6000 watts?
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post #17 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

I like that Eli.

Or what about just two 18" LMS-5400s in 3.5 cubed boxes, one on each side and about 6000 watts.

After all, he is only comparing them to sealed 13.5" drivers. An 18" LMS should trump a JL 13.5 no problem and still be very small and easily moveable at say 110-125 lbs a piece.

Simple design, simple execution, tons of savings. The whole setup would not much more than ONE F113 with EQ and and multi-Kw amp.

And, if he needs more output, (and new inner ears) he can always stack another...

I was thinking the same thing. I know some would frown on it since it isn't the most cost effective, but two of those, each with a PLX-3402, would destroy a couple of F113s.
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post #18 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJEli View Post

Correct. You did not see the low end EQ in the JLs because it was "built in". Depending on the design, you can figure on needing about 6-12db of boost split up on the low end. (<35hz)

One thing I REALLY like about the SMS-1 is the ability to eq down to 15hz. Most PEQs will only allow their lowest filter at 20hz.

-Eli

I am already learning more and oh so quickly. I love this guys. I didn't know they were heavily eqed internally. I can sell the rane and get and SMS-1.
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post #19 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:59 AM
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Ohhhhhhhhh another Rane PE17 fan. I have two and they are the best.

And these guys can tell you all about boxed subs. And you will get a zillion responses because of your stated budget. Most who come here have one tenth of that for a budget.

If you have an inclination for truly earth shaking bass, visit the Cult of the Infinitely Baffled. And there are no boxes at all (in the room). Some large portion of your house is the box. My present IB is under $500. I cannot imagine the house standing if I were to put ten such in my house.

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post #20 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

We also need to factor in the cost for grills that fit well and do the job of protecting the driver and should look good too. When you say 3.5 cubed boxes, what exactly do you mean?
Also, I have only 1 dedicated 20amp circuit and another shared 15 amp (lights that don't get used during HT so the full juice from the 15amp is available on demand) circuit. Won't that be too less for a whopping 6000 watts?

2 PLX 3402s will run fine on that 20a circuit.

-Eli

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post #21 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

We also need to factor in the cost for grills that fit well and do the job of protecting the driver and should look good too. When you say 3.5 cubed boxes, what exactly do you mean?
Also, I have only 1 dedicated 20amp circuit and another shared 15 amp (lights that don't get used during HT so the full juice from the 15amp is available on demand) circuit. Won't that be too less for a whopping 6000 watts?

Say a ~21-22" cube (external), depending on wall thickness would give you around 3.5 after driver and bracing.

You could get away with a large amp on a dedicated 15 amp circuit, remember 90% of the time your subs, especially 18s will be coasting along. It is only the heavy transients that will draw the heavy juice. Is 15 amps ideal, no but chances are you will be fine. You could always go with two smaller amps too and split the load....

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post #22 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 12:02 PM
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many many options for that price, but this caught my attention in your post:
Quote:


2. The subs should fit where the f113s were (Please see attached pic of my HT)
3. They should not be large cylinders but good looking boxes.

which tells me that you really want a very small footprint (let me know if that's not correct).

assuming that, I would probably suggest the following:

1. if you have headroom in the attic there for an IB right above the screen, then that's your ticket. 4 or 8 x Q18s, couple of QSC or Crown CE amps, and you are golden.

if IB is not a possibility, then consider:

2. 4x LMS5400 18"s, each its own cube (as jpmst3's setup) stacked on top per side, or 2 per box in opposite firing direction a la Seaton Submerssive. Add appropriate Power, and LT, EQ properly, and you are in very good shape.

3. 4 x Q18 18"s or RL-P18s, as in above

4. 4 x TC3000s, as in above


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post #23 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

I am already learning more and oh so quickly. I love this guys. I didn't know they were heavily eqed internally. I can sell the rane and get and SMS-1.

The SMS-1 has its own drawbacks. It is a nice piece but it is not perfect. Since you already have all the measurement equipment, I might look into the QSC DSP30.

-Eli

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post #24 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJEli View Post

The SMS-1 has its own drawbacks. It is a nice piece but it is not perfect. Since you already have all the measurement equipment, I might look into the QSC DSP30.

-Eli

Thats the one that Mark Seaton uses right? Yeah, that looks like a good unit.
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post #25 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJEli View Post

(2) dual opposing sealed 15" TC3000s, 2 EQs, and 2 QSC PLX 3402s.

$1200 in drivers
~$1200 in amps
$300 for 2 EQs if you use BFDs

That leaves you $2300 for enclosures.

-Eli

That driver is a beauty http://www.tcsounds.com/tc3000.htm
At $385/piece, I am looking at about $1600 for the drivers alone. Just did a quick search, obviously there maybe better deals out there.
Will the opposing ones be wired push-pull?
What size cabinet?
About amps, in stereo mode, that would be 1700 watts/channel right?
http://www.123dj.com/amps/qsc/plx-3402.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

I was thinking the same thing. I know some would frown on it since it isn't the most cost effective, but two of those, each with a PLX-3402, would destroy a couple of F113s.

Will, it seems like a no brainer to me. He gets some of the best drivers out there, and the setup is modular so more can easily be added. Yes, the drivers are expensive but he only needs two!

Although, I know people like to spec insane solutions when a $5K budget is available, but I cannot imagine him needing more than two LMSs.

We are already talking something like around twice the output of dual JL113s already...

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post #27 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT Nut View Post

Ohhhhhhhhh another Rane PE17 fan. I have two and they are the best.

And these guys can tell you all about boxed subs. And you will get a zillion responses because of your stated budget. Most who come here have one tenth of that for a budget.

If you have an inclination for truly earth shaking bass, visit the Cult of the Infinitely Baffled. And there are no boxes at all (in the room). Some large portion of your house is the box. My present IB is under $500. I cannot imagine the house standing if I were to put ten such in my house.

Yeah. I love the rane. I also prefer not to go into digital domain unless I have to. I am also a tube freak for 2-ch stereo.
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post #28 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJEli View Post

2 PLX 3402s will run fine on that 20a circuit.

-Eli

Wait a minute. Each PLX is $1200 right? Doens't that skyrocket the price for amps?
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post #29 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

That driver is a beauty http://www.tcsounds.com/tc3000.htm
At $385/piece, I am looking at about $1600 for the drivers alone. Just did a quick search, obviously there maybe better deals out there.
Will the opposing ones be wired push-pull?
What size cabinet?
About amps, in stereo mode, that would be 1700 watts/channel right?
http://www.123dj.com/amps/qsc/plx-3402.html

The opposing ones wouldn't be wired in a special way, just simply facing directly away from eachother. Then you'd probably want to wire them for a ~4ohm load, and bridge the PLX-3402.

Cabinet size could be 4-6ft^3.
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post #30 of 849 Old 04-18-2007, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Wait a minute. Each PLX is $1200 right? Doens't that skyrocket the price for amps?

http://www.audiolines.com/product.ph...7&cat=0&page=1

$720 open box/demo.
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