Scott's Dual RL-p18 'LLT' design/build thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 398 Old 08-14-2007, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

Once you taste real DIY...no way back to the whimpy side of subing.

I never thought I would see the day that I would hear that from you..........Oh, how things have changed!

But I like it!
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post #182 of 398 Old 08-14-2007, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

I never thought I would see the day that I would hear that from you..........Oh, how things have changed!

But I like it!

Ha,no doubt about that.

With DIY done the correct way you build what YOU need,not what some designer had in mind when thinking about a pint sized squaker.

You know that with your two towers of power.

I start to feel my 320 plus pound sealed monster is on the small side....

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #183 of 398 Old 08-14-2007, 03:28 PM
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Scott,
It makes the rest of the equipment look like HTIB and a 36" TV, and it's very Deathstar'esque imposing all at the same time

How is it below tuning? Is there enough roll off in the signal chain?


Later
Dan

Regards,
Dan
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post #184 of 398 Old 08-14-2007, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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"Congratulations on a job well done! Those are some GINORMOUS subs for sure. I'd love to hear Master and Commander through those, at scare your friends volume of course. "

Oh, of course. I actually dont have M&C but I will pick it up soon. There is always that "20th Century Fox Gold Edition" of it that goes for about $5 at Worst Buy. Heh...

"Scott,
It makes the rest of the equipment look like HTIB and a 36" TV, and it's very Deathstar'esque imposing all at the same time "


I know! Each one is about as big as my 55" tv. Let alone two together. You should see it person. Mmm...all that black looks pretty sexy.

Gawddamn...I owe you a HUGE thanks, Dan. Without your guidance it would have turned into a whole different beast. If a beast at all. Thank you so much. Bah! Ill call ya up and thank you over the phone.

"How is it below tuning? Is there enough roll off in the signal chain? "

It appears so...I havent turned it up to 11 very much, if at all yet. Only had yesterday to play with it. Some more tonight. On the first day, I tried WotW lightning scene at moderate volumes. I watched the excursion and it stayed very controled. It was pretty tight though...so maybe after what I played with yesterday...the suspension might be looser now. I do get inroom response down to Fb ...I am very sure of it. Maybe I should do some waterfalls for the thunder in Open Range ...for the first time I was really fooled into thinking the thunder was real. It was quite a shocker.

Also...no BFD in the chain at the moment. I only have two of those phono to RCA plugs. I need another to use with the EP2500 and the BFD at the same time. Its just pure LFE output from my HK525 for now. I need to get a 3.5mm to 3.5mm stereo cable to measure my soundcard too ...that way I can just use REW for all my measurements. Ill see if I can get those cables and plugs tomorrow afternoon.

Today, I will do some more demos. I still gotta hear SPR and the Haunting with these suckers. Wow! Ill probably break something with the latter of the two. Hehheh. Trying to push a lot of 16-25hz material cause (without unloading it) thats where all the excursion gets used up.

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post #185 of 398 Old 08-14-2007, 04:13 PM
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It has been probably mentioned before, but what amp you are using? What kind of load (ohms)?
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post #186 of 398 Old 08-14-2007, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Mayer View Post

It has been probably mentioned before, but what amp you are using? What kind of load (ohms)?

Apparently a single EP-2500 between both subs.

That got me thinking...

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Today I flirted with the max output of these...accidentally left it +6dB on Xmen3 from watching open Range and that was the only time I heard the slightest peep of strain. Very loud transients were reproduced just fine but I think I heard a noise on a couple of loud booms. Other than that....spectacular performance so far! So far my favs are still good. Others take on a new a new life. The thunder from Open Range is so realistic, I wanted to look outside and check if there was a cloud cover. Most realistic recording of thunder Ive ever heard. Awesome stuff!

That has to be your amp limitation rearing its ugly head, not the subs. But you probably knew that anyway. If you ever wanted to upgrade I'd look at just getting another Ep2500 so each sub could have its own. Just a thought...
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post #187 of 398 Old 08-14-2007, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


It has been probably mentioned before, but what amp you are using? What kind of load (ohms)?

Quote:


Apparently a single EP-2500 between both subs.



Yes! That is correct. I am using only one EP2500. I bought two RLp18-d4's so that when wired in series - parallel, I would end with a 4ohm nominal load. I run the Ep2500 in "bridged" mode for the most amount of power.

Quote:


That has to be your amp limitation rearing its ugly head, not the subs. But you probably knew that anyway. If you ever wanted to upgrade I'd look at just getting another Ep2500 so each sub could have its own. Just a thought...

Oooof! I knew I was gonna find about that sooner than later. Its all this "low-distortion bass" I just want to keep turning it up and up. Honestly, that was the first thing I thought of. I'm pretty certain I know the difference between a mechanical and electrical clip. I just didn't think it would be that easy. I watch my clip lights on the amp all the time and the red light never blinks nor flickers the slightest. Hmmm....

I still need to get used to the performance these deliver. Quite an upgrade going from a single 250w vented Tempest to dual, high excurison 18's with 2000w on tap tuned to 11hz.

Wow.

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post #188 of 398 Old 08-14-2007, 06:11 PM
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Scott,

Again WOW WOW and WOW these two tiny boxes have inspired me...was at HomeDepot purchased a nice Hitachi saw...Special Buy how could I pass it up...($800 doh)and eight sheets of MDF.

Dammit I am building two 18 cu ft boxes tuned to 14Hz. Thanks for the pics,this inspired my purchase outburst.

This or the next weekend...building time. And ordering time...


And yes these giant black boxes DISAPEAR like by magic when lights go off.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #189 of 398 Old 08-14-2007, 06:17 PM
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Good to see a few real men still exist at this place. You are in prime bass shape with that pair my friend, nothing to worry about or question anymore. You may need a second amp if you hear any type of noises, but the displacement capability with a naturally great FR is there in spades. Take Ilkka's testing of the TC2k LLT and just stretch out the solid extension to 11hz or so and that's basically what you have on your hands.

Gotta love this picture here, probably one of my all time favorites:



The Brotherhood of Bass grows one stronger.
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post #190 of 398 Old 08-14-2007, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Good to see a few real men still exist at this place. You are in prime bass shape with that pair my friend, nothing to worry about or question anymore. You may need a second amp if you hear any type of noises, but the displacement capability with a naturally great FR is there in spades. Take Ilkka's testing of the TC2k LLT and just stretch out the solid extension to 11hz or so and that's basically what you have on your hands.

Gotta love this picture here, probably one of my all time favorites:

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...tydarkness.jpg

The Brotherhood of Bass grows one stronger.

Steve, don't you agree that he needs to build a second pair to even it out?

I wonder how much his room complains with high dB low frequency material.
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post #191 of 398 Old 08-14-2007, 07:05 PM
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Another pair would really hurt the dispersion and imaging of the speakers, as you'd be cutting the front width of your room by ~40%. As it is, I'd probably turn the subs sideways so that that front left speaker isn't partially reflecting off of them.
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post #192 of 398 Old 08-14-2007, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post


Oooof! I knew I was gonna find about that sooner than later. Its all this "low-distortion bass" I just want to keep turning it up and up. Honestly, that was the first thing I thought of. I'm pretty certain I know the difference between a mechanical and electrical clip. I just didn't think it would be that easy. I watch my clip lights on the amp all the time and the red light never blinks nor flickers the slightest. Hmmm....

Yeah, I figured it was. But yeah..if you want to keep turning it up and up and get more headroom out of your subs, you'll need another 2500. As we know, Ilkka was clipping his ~2000W (not sure how it compares to the Ep2500 side-by-side, but its gotta be equal or better) with a single TC-2000. So it only makes sense that you'd do the same with one EP2500 per pair of 18" Rl-ps. No worries though, just a thought for the future.

Really killer setup though. I love it!
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post #193 of 398 Old 08-14-2007, 08:10 PM
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That is the best. Now that you've gotten good at woodworking, you might be able to build yourself a component rack.

Achievement Unlocked

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post #194 of 398 Old 08-15-2007, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

That is the best. Now that you've gotten good at woodworking, you might be able to build yourself a component rack.


Didn't you see the MDF spacers between the Receiver and the component stack
give Scott a break



Later
Dan

Regards,
Dan
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post #195 of 398 Old 08-15-2007, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Dammit I am building two 18 cu ft boxes tuned to 14Hz. Thanks for the pics,this inspired my purchase outburst.

Wow! Nice. Why so small? I got a good 14 cuft over those. 14hz? Bah! That is soooo 2005.

Quote:


This or the next weekend...building time. And ordering time...

Sweeeet!

Quote:


Good to see a few real men still exist at this place. You are in prime bass shape with that pair my friend, nothing to worry about or question anymore. You may need a second amp if you hear any type of noises, but the displacement capability with a naturally great FR is there in spades. Take Ilkka's testing of the TC2k LLT and just stretch out the solid extension to 11hz or so and that's basically what you have on your hands.



Quote:


The Brotherhood of Bass grows one stronger.

Preach on, Brother!

Quote:


Steve, don't you agree that he needs to build a second pair to even it out?

Hehehehe...I sooo would. In time, in time....

Quote:


Another pair would really hurt the dispersion and imaging of the speakers, as you'd be cutting the front width of your room by ~40%. As it is, I'd probably turn the subs sideways so that that front left speaker isn't partially reflecting off of them.

I thought of that. The room isnt quite wide enough for two on one side and the other. Tv/speaker configuration wouldn't allow for it. I noticed the proximity of the left speaker and the subs and so far I havent noticed any artifacts from being placed so close. It was something I was worried about... Didnt noticed any change in the front soundstage, well, other than the fact that it now sounds much deeper because of the new low end extension. If it becomes a problem I may add little bit of eggcrate foam right there on the edge.

Ill come back to the positioning in a sec...

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #196 of 398 Old 08-15-2007, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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That is the best. Now that you've gotten good at woodworking, you might be able to build yourself a component rack.

Yeah. Hehehe. That is on the list of things to do. Ive been a bit preoccupied, ya know? There are many possible upgrade paths in view right now, so I havent been able to decide what formfactor I want. Originally, it was going to be a traditional "Flexi-rack". Then I thought about the idea of replacing the tv I have now with a newer "tabletop" bigscreen and creating a shorter, longer flexirack for all the components, center channel and the tv to sit on. Sooo, something for the near future will be to upgrade (erm....get) a rack for my components.

Quote:


Yeah, I figured it was. But yeah..if you want to keep turning it up and up and get more headroom out of your subs, you'll need another 2500. As we know, Ilkka was clipping his ~2000W (not sure how it compares to the Ep2500 side-by-side, but its gotta be equal or better) with a single TC-2000. So it only makes sense that you'd do the same with one EP2500 per pair of 18" Rl-ps. No worries though, just a thought for the future.

Makes plenty of sense. Except for one thing bothering me. I have never seen the clip lights light up at all. Never. Havent done it yet. Sometimes it doesnt even seem like I get the "signal" lights on full power all the time. ITS LOUD! Just when I had Xmen: Last Stand on waaaay too loud it made a couple of not-so-clean booms. Maybe it was just the sounds that are crummy. For example, I watched AotC last night. Only a couple of boomy rumbles but everything else sounds perfect! Absolutely perfect! I know this sounds kinda ghey but could it be that it is so low distortion now that I can hear the difference between muddy sounding effects and good ones? Cause I also watched SPR last night (was able to go +5db from the Haunting ) and it totally passed my tests. Sounded perfect. Vice like grip and great dynamics! I know SPR doesnt have any low, low bass but it was the first time I was able to transport myself back to my first (three) viewings at the local Cinema when it came out. I must be doing something right. Hehehe...

Just a thought I had...

Would it benefit me to run a power cable from another room (my bedroom is closest.) I could run the amp off from a plug in there. That would place the load of the amp on the circuit breaker for the bedroom, right? Would I get more power that way?


Oh! Almost forgot...

Quote:


I wonder how much his room complains with high dB low frequency material.

So far the only movie that has made the room complain at all would be: the Haunting. So far its the only one that still makes me cringe and fear for the structural integrity of the house. If anyother movie does it...Im not aware of it. The bass is louder than the house shaking.

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post #197 of 398 Old 08-15-2007, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh yeah. For the curious...

I have played with these at pretty good volumes. Really loud stuff. Demo scene after demo scenes..

Heat? Not even an issue. After about 2-3hrs of continuous punishment the amp itself only raised about a degree or two from the outside. If that. Placing my hand on the top of the case (where the heatsink tunnel is) ...it went from cool to barely a pinch above room temperature. Placing my hand near the front air exchange showed only a slight warmth to the touch. Hovering my hand over the center of the cone of each woofer (anodized aluminum) also showed only a slight offset in room temperature. Barely a degree. Very cool!

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post #198 of 398 Old 08-15-2007, 12:28 PM
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I don't know how much loudspeaker tech relies on things like dissipating heat through the cone, it always seemed to me that due to the usual cone materials and designs, they seem poorly suited to release heat, especially compared to a what a bottom heatsync can do. BTW, does anyone know how the power ratings compare between TC and SS? TC gives a continuous and peak rating, SS just gives an "RMS" power rating, I have no idea what this means. Can the RL-p18 take as much power as the TC2k or perhaps more?
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post #199 of 398 Old 08-15-2007, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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The VC seems pretty similar so I would say, "yes".


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post #200 of 398 Old 08-15-2007, 08:29 PM
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I don't see much activity lights unless it is a bassy movie scene either - even more so after I went bridged. I think you are in fine shape, it was probably just part of the recording like you alluded to. You will hear/sense things with this setup that couldn't be reproduced as well before based on its superiority. As to your idea about running a power cable to another circuit, lol, I have been doing just that for 3 years now. Washing machine circuits are 20amp, and it's not getting any use when I'm not washing clothes, so I've been using a 12/3 extension cord for my amps at both my old place and my new place Until I build a house with dedicated circuits, it's the best make due solution.
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post #201 of 398 Old 08-17-2007, 01:02 PM
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Scott,
so how are things going?
The neighbors get a clue yet?
You give the local Fuzz the tour yet? <------- don't forget to get it on video


Later
Dan

Regards,
Dan
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post #202 of 398 Old 08-17-2007, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


I don't see much activity lights unless it is a bassy movie scene either - even more so after I went bridged. I think you are in fine shape, it was probably just part of the recording like you alluded to.

It was because of some uncomfortable/muddied bass sounds that I wasnt sure of how much power Im getting. It sounded similar to the amp running out of juice but I could never get it to clip...

Quote:


You will hear/sense things with this setup that couldn't be reproduced as well before based on its superiority. As to your idea about running a power cable to another circuit, lol, I have been doing just that for 3 years now.

Hehehehe...lolz!

Quote:


Washing machine circuits are 20amp, and it's not getting any use when I'm not washing clothes, so I've been using a 12/3 extension cord for my amps at both my old place and my new place Until I build a house with dedicated circuits, it's the best make due solution.

Cool! Something I will play with plenty this weekend. Ill hook it up to my bedroom or bathroom and see if there is any improvement. I think the amp must be starved cause I know with the tv, components and amp...I am sure I am pushing the limits of the amount of power that can come out of one room. Sooo, we will see if thing are more dynamic with the addition of another breaker for the amp.

...

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post #203 of 398 Old 08-17-2007, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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so how are things going?

Other than a few not-so-cleans bass hits here and there...terrific! So much bass...sometimes I just dont know what to do with it all. Ahhh, I could swear this thing could not go up any louder sometimes but I just dont want to push it too hard. Its still the first week for these and Id rather take it easy. I beat the **** out of my Tempest, I know that...but these were much more expensive and with this build...I really could break something attached to the house (solar panels ...eh?) sooo Im just going at it one step at a time.

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The neighbors get a clue yet?

Pfft, no! Not surprised either. Hehehehe, these arent rock concert levels Im pushing over here. Does everyone around here have cardboard for house foundation? Heheheh...just kidding.

I have never had a complaint from a neighbor...not all my life. At my old house and this one...nothing. I could hear SPR from my mailbox at my old house and I never got a complaint. These walls are pretty decent too. Hmmm...guess I have understanding neighbors. Lucky me.

This weekend Ill run a few good demos and walk outside the house and see how loud it sounds.

Quote:


You give the local Fuzz the tour yet? <------- don't forget to get it on video

And one of my neighbors works for the 'Highway patrol' too. Heheheh....i think the "drummer kid" across the street makes more noise than I ever could with these. Id love to make a video but Im sure it wouldnt be useful....distorted mics and no excursion to show off. Too bad I tuned to 11hz.

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post #204 of 398 Old 08-19-2007, 01:24 PM
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Neighbors can be an issue almost anywhere, I had a friend take his sound system over to my parents house a while back and after an evening of really putting his 4 PA 18" basshorns through their paces outside, we got a call from our neighbor, asking if the noise was coming from us. My parents live on 40 acres and are surrounded by corn fields, the neighbors were almost a quarter mile away! They weren't complaining, but I think they were just curious, he was pushing 145dB from them, 5m gp.
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post #205 of 398 Old 08-20-2007, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmmm....

Some quick tests with REW this weekend show great low-end extension and very low distortion!

Unfortunately, I have a very nasty null from the upper 30's to about 50 hz. About 20-30dB!!! Very lame. It confirms the lack of "ooomph" Ive been missing. Not the "chest slamming" (...I know that's the 70-200hz) but the just above "thunderous" 30's and below the 50-60hz booms and rumbles that is missing in the room.

That and now I can hear an atroucious amount of hum when the BFD is plugged in. Guess I need a cheater plug, yes?

Ive thought about other possible placement options. I thought about bringing one down to the floor. Pointing them both into the opposing corners. That or one in shooting into a corner and one shooting into the center of the room. All this will be behind the tv so I will have to bring it closer into the room, something I didn't want to do originally.

When I get my good cables later this week I will post pics of what the measurements show. (i used a pair of cables that werent in the best shape. Some bad readings and such) So far I noticed that the room gain flattens these beasts perfectly! AHahaha! Pretty flat to below 10hz....muuahahahahahaha!

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #206 of 398 Old 08-20-2007, 08:03 PM
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Well again, I'd turn them both so that they face inward - it may help your bass response and it will help your speaker imaging.
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post #207 of 398 Old 08-20-2007, 09:24 PM
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Just a thought. Did you think about laying the subs down and building a platform for all the equipment to go above them. This would utilize some of the vertical space in the room. It would also allow for wider spacing of the mains and a symetrical look to the room.

What crossover frequency are you using?
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post #208 of 398 Old 08-21-2007, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

........i.... it will help your speaker imaging.

eh?
how so?

The imaging from the main speakers come from the horizontal and vertical axis dispersion, particularly with the MTM baffle design he is using. How is adding the naturally long and decaying wavelength at a 90deg angle going to "help" with imaging?

If anything, positioning one of the subs on the other side, contrary to what you stated earlier, may end up helping solving his FR notch at 30-50hz, and will do a better spacial dispersion of the low frequency waves, as they have a much wider fill.

a typical WTM, MTM, and WMT dispersion (keep in mind the driver/tweeter, and the XO network implemented has a huge impact as well) looks like this:

(Vertical response +30 deg~-30deg):

(Horizontal response +60 deg~-60deg):


Just extend the FR below 300hz to get an idea.


I do agree that it may very well help with the FR notch issue Scott is seeing
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post #209 of 398 Old 08-21-2007, 12:24 PM
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Scott,
What Mic and are you using a cal file with REW?

I think Steve's suggestion on placement is what will work out best, definately worth trying.


Later
Dan

Regards,
Dan
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post #210 of 398 Old 08-21-2007, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Using an older style RS meter with the calibration files I downloaded from HTS. I also calibrated it to the awful, awful soundcard in my laptop. Heheh...still waiting for some better cables to get here but I still have had some successful plots from REW that I did last night and today at lunch. Still getting the hang of it.

No matter what position I try to sit in I still get a huge +20dB drop from 35hz to 45hz and then back up a bit. That is the worst null in the system. Others are there but not as bad. I also have some awful ringing around 25-28hz and 35hz. Do you think it could be the room ringing? I would have thought that the speed at which it takes measurements that it would not pick up the ringing of the room. Not sure, though...heheh.

I will try placing the other one on the floor. Both firing into the center and into the corners and see which plots the best. I pushed the tv and mains closer in room so I should have some room back there....ooof! It will be tight back there.

EDIT: Also thought about placing my Tempest behind me (bleh) and taking some measurements like that. Im sure it will be detrimental to the performance but now that I am getting the hang of REW...its just something to try out.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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