Measuring Amplifiers - Page 14 - AVS Forum
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post #391 of 1917 Old 11-17-2007, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Doesn't sound like a bad deal really. The 1200 can be had new for $599, so used should be a real steal.

They (XS1200) can currently be found at Musicians Friend for $499 refurb, the XS900 for $449. But, both pop up on ebay on a regular basis. I jumped on the XS900/new for $400 because it was located in Ft Lauderdale and I knew Chuck could pick it up and test it, therefore requiring only one-way shipping.

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What design/class is the output stage?

Class H, supposedly.

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This amp shows some power, quality distortion figures, excellent S/N ratio, and frequency response, but like some others the power figures fall short of manufacturer's specifications and claims when using these stringent tests.

I'd say it actually does very well when compared to its specs. For instance, it put out an average of 746W per channel at 20Hz @ 4ohms @ .14% THD. While the watts are 17% less than advertised, the spec allowed for THD to .5%. It fares even better at 2ohms a channel, where it pretty much meets specs, if not exceeds them (average of 1186W per channel @ 20Hz @ .234% THD) while the spec stated 1200W @ .5% THD.

At any rate, I am very pleased so far with the results. The good thing is, there is one more amp in the lineup which is rated higher than the 900 and it can readily be found on forums, ebay, etc for a pretty good deal IMO.

Chuck deserves all the credit here. He, without hesitation, said he'd happily pick up the amp for me. And to test it like this on the weekend is wonderful. He just picked up the amp a few days ago! And finally the community has some objective data on these Crown XS amps.
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post #392 of 1917 Old 11-17-2007, 05:18 PM
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Looks excellent.
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post #393 of 1917 Old 11-17-2007, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are the 8 ohm and 4 ohm bridged mono measurements.

This puts out quite a bit of power.... but getting it to do it at a steady state was another matter. Since this amplifier belongs to WillD, I did not feel that I had the right to take it apart and burn it up. He might get upset. But with steady state 4 and 8 ohm bridged mono, I could hear the amp trying to do it and only really being limited by the circuit breaker in the amplifier. It would have run and run at temperature just fine with a bigger breaker. No, it would not do it for 4 hours straight, but I bet it would do it for 10 minutes or so. That is pretty impressive for a modern day amp.

Chuck
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post #394 of 1917 Old 11-17-2007, 05:24 PM
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Quote:


This puts out quite a bit of power.... but getting it to do it at a steady state was another matter. Since this amplifier belongs to WillD, I did not feel that I had the right to take it apart and burn it up. He might get upset.

Thanks, I appreciate it. I think what you've done is more than enough.

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I could hear the amp trying to do it and only really being limited by the circuit breaker in the amplifier. It would have run and run at temperature just fine with a bigger breaker.

Figures. I believe the manuals for the XS state the 900 has an 18A circuit breaker and the 1200 a 20A, so maybe one could sort of guesstimate how a 1200 would do on the bench.

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That is pretty impressive for a modern day amp.

Indeed. I am pretty satisfied with what I've seen. I didn't expect anything miraculous, but at least this amp shows than paying more for it than an EP does kind of pay off.
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post #395 of 1917 Old 11-17-2007, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is what this amplifier looks like.
Left front -


Right front -


Center Indicators -


Left rear -


Right rear -
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post #396 of 1917 Old 11-17-2007, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

I am pretty satisfied with what I've seen. I didn't expect anything miraculous, but at least this amp shows than paying more for it than an EP does kind of pay off.

Definitely! Significantly more powerful than a EP2500 in either stereo or bridged (4 ohm). Not to mention the quality and feel-good factor. I should have listened to you about the XS1200.

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post #397 of 1917 Old 11-17-2007, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btp View Post

Definitely! Significantly more powerful than a EP2500 in either stereo or bridged (4 ohm). Not to mention the quality and feel-good factor. I should have listened to you about the XS1200.

Its not too late.
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post #398 of 1917 Old 11-17-2007, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Its not too late.

No, definitely not, they can still be had new for a song. Do a google search....

The 1200 may be one of the better bargains in amps due to low demand.

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post #399 of 1917 Old 11-17-2007, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

No, definitely not, they can still be had new for a song. Do a google search....

The 1200 may be one of the better bargains in amps due to low demand.

Yes, I think so. Both the 900 and 1200 aren't particularly sought after but now they might be.
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post #400 of 1917 Old 11-17-2007, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Yes, I think so. Both the 900 and 1200 aren't particularly sought after but now they might be.

I didn't want to say that out loud.

That is what happened to the CE4000 after thylantyr turned everyone on to them.

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post #401 of 1917 Old 11-17-2007, 09:11 PM
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La, la, la, la, la... I CAN'T HEAR WHAT YOU GUYS ARE SAYING... la, la, la, la, la...


Signature Challenged.
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post #402 of 1917 Old 11-17-2007, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btp View Post

La, la, la, la, la... I CAN'T HEAR WHAT YOU GUYS ARE SAYING... la, la, la, la, la...



Let the bidding wars commence!

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post #403 of 1917 Old 11-17-2007, 09:21 PM
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(been dying to find a reason to post this pic)

OK... seriously... many thanks to Chuck for starting this thread, testing these amps, and sharing the results with us. As they say, "One test is worth a thousand 'expert' opinions."

I do have a question about the tests, though. How do you (Chuck) decide when to stop cranking the gain? I ask because the THD figures seem to vary, so I'm not sure if you're targeting a particular max THD or what.

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post #404 of 1917 Old 11-18-2007, 02:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btp View Post

I do have a question about the tests, though. How do you (Chuck) decide when to stop cranking the gain? I ask because the THD figures seem to vary, so I'm not sure if you're targeting a particular max THD or what.

You are close. If an amplifier says it can do 100 watts at 8 ohms at .1% THD, then you can hook it up to an 8 ohm load bank and raise the level until it reaches 100 watts, then read distortion, or raise the level until it reaches
.1%, then read wattage. This works well when you have a well behaved, low wattage unit. Fast forward to 2007 with class H behemoths that are not meant to put out constant power for any given amount of time. AT most you get much less than 30 seconds of measuring time at full power to check distortion or vice versa before the unit self destructs and protection systems kick in or the amp smokes. These amps should be checked with a burst cycle that will automatically raise the power level into the stratosphere and then lower the power back into A/AB range where it will do steady state sine wave. It is very easy to see any change in the waveform at all in a class H amplifier. Most of the time instead of clipping some form of oscillation will appear on the waveform. When they do clip (it is very apparent) they do not 'hard' clip by cutting the tops and bottoms off of the waveform, but they distort the waveform.

Most of these amps I am testing are made to be used in a professional sound system environment where they should work when you turn them on 24/7 and they should be lighter weight for travel purposes. It would then make sense that to be able to double the power of an amp, you would have to carry half as many of them in a truck, thereby saving fuel costs.

These amps were not meant to find their way into the living rooms of American Home Theaters. If you were to judge this amplifier against a boutique audiphile amplifier that cost $5,000 or more, the boutique amp would put out its rated power all day long into a load and have unmeasurable distortion. There would be no forced air cooling in the boutique amp. But the boutique amp would not put out the massive watts needed by the subs we use. Pro amps do not have to have the pedigree for S/N and distortion that home amps can have. That being said, the pro amps being built today are so much better, quieter, powerful, and robust that there is no comparison.

Think about carrying 200 Crown DC300A amps at 4 rack spaces high and 150 watts per channel versus an XS900. No comparison.
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post #405 of 1917 Old 11-18-2007, 06:52 AM
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Thanks again chasw. That's the best summation I've heard as to why us DIY Subwoofer guys are here looking at the specs of pro amp gear and why we turn to guys like you that have devised a thorough and honest way to determine what an amp can really do. We don't have to rely on manufacturers advertised claims anymore.
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post #406 of 1917 Old 11-18-2007, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post


I tested my Crest 10001, 4 ohm bridged, dual 110VAC [30A] -> ~5,500w
continuous. I can do more with a solid 120VAC input. I did a burst test on the Crest and measured a 18kw transient using the scope playing a drumming solo track.

So Thy, tell us more about this amp. Like . . . . . where did you get it and can WE get one too!!??

Excuse me for not questioning you sooner. I had this info marked for interogatories and lost the marker.
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post #407 of 1917 Old 11-18-2007, 11:25 AM
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I would not have guessed that the XS900 would do that well. Most of the amps tested seem to fall well short of their claimed performance. Looks like a definite bargain for sure.
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post #408 of 1917 Old 11-18-2007, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINEARX View Post

So Thy, tell us more about this amp. Like . . . . . where did you get it and can WE get one too!!??

Excuse me for not questioning you sooner. I had this info marked for interogatories and lost the marker.

Finding isn't so hard. Paying for it is. You're talking well over $1K.
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post #409 of 1917 Old 11-18-2007, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I would not have guessed that the XS900 would do that well. Most of the amps tested seem to fall well short of their claimed performance. Looks like a definite bargain for sure.

We really need more amps to be tested. I kind of expected the Behringer's to fall short of their specs, naturally. The Oaudio did about what I would expect. We just need more amps to form a better overall opinion.
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post #410 of 1917 Old 11-18-2007, 11:45 AM
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We really need more amps to be tested. I kind of expected the Behringer's to fall short of their specs, naturally. The Oaudio did about what I would expect. We just need more amps to form a better overall opinion.

Yeah Willd, I just read this whole Thread and find it most interesting. Quite entertaining and laughable at some points I might ad I'm surprised to see the EP15 not fare as well as the EP25 though?? Think it could be it's the 2500 that gets used/compared so much more, hence they put more of a effort into it?

Nice job Chuck, thanks man

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post #411 of 1917 Old 11-18-2007, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I was asked by a guy who's name starts with W and ends with D to check the frequency response of the XS900 to see what it down in the lower regions.
Here it is:
100 Hz - 0.00 db
020 Hz - 0.00 db
015 Hz - 0.00 db
12.5 Hz - -0.10 db
010 Hz - -0.20 db
009 Hz - -0.40 db
008 Hz - -0.50 db
007 Hz - -0.80 db
006 Hz - -1.50 db
005 Hz - -2.3 Hz
004 Hz - WILL NOT REPRODUCE!

At any frequency under 5 Hz the amplifier will not reproduce that frequency. It appears to be a protection factor. At 5 Hz, the amp acts normal, at 4 Hz, it starts the fans whirring and then turns the signal off. Move it back to 5 Hz, everything returns to normal.

Chuck
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post #412 of 1917 Old 11-18-2007, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Yeah Willd, I just read this whole Thread and find it most interesting. Quite entertaining and laughable at some points I might ad I'm surprised to see the EP15 not fare as well as the EP25 though?? Think it could be it's the 2500 that gets used/compared so much more, hence they put more of a effort into it?

Nice job Chuck, thanks man

Well, the difference in class probably has an affect (class H with the 2500 compared to AB on the 1500).

Quote:


At any frequency under 5 Hz the amplifier will not reproduce that frequency. It appears to be a protection factor. At 5 Hz, the amp acts normal, at 4 Hz, it starts the fans whirring and then turns the signal off. Move it back to 5 Hz, everything returns to normal.

That is great Chuck, thanks! You really are the best. I know everything I ever wanted to know about this amp now and its not even in my possession.
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post #413 of 1917 Old 11-18-2007, 01:28 PM
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Quote:


Well, the difference in class probably has an affect (class H with the 2500 compared to AB on the 1500).

Uhh.. now that makes sense.. make note to self, don't take things for granted.

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post #414 of 1917 Old 11-18-2007, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINEARX View Post

So Thy, tell us more about this amp. Like . . . . . where did you get it and can WE get one too!!??

Excuse me for not questioning you sooner. I had this info marked for interogatories and lost the marker.

Crest 10001 is an old school design with a big heatsink, lots of output
stage transistor and two massive toriods, all crammed in a 4 RU chassis.
It's an amazing feat to put all that electronics in a tight space which
bring up the issue that serviceability is a PITA if the amp needed
repairing. I paid $2k on Ebay. If you have a bigger budget, and depending
on the applicable, you can use something else as it probably is more
manageable - moving a 150 pound amp around isn't sweet, etc.
On a positive note, it did run my sine wave testing all day unlike
some of the proamps that may go into thermal protect when doing
this type of test.


http://www.crestaudio.com/media/pdf/10001_10-15-97.pdf

https://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/proa...st_10001-1.jpg

https://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/proa...st_10001-2.jpg



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #415 of 1917 Old 11-18-2007, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

Crest 10001 is an old school design with a big heatsink, lots of output
stage transistor and two massive toriods, all crammed in a 4 RU chassis.
It's an amazing feat to put all that electronics in a tight space which
bring up the issue that serviceability is a PITA if the amp were need
repairing. I paid $2k on Ebay. If you have a bigger budget, and depending
on the applicable, you can use something else as it probably is more
manageable - moving a 150 pound amp around isn't sweet.

150 lbs.!

Holy shee-ite! That is insane. I don't think my cabinet would even support that. Damn.

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post #416 of 1917 Old 11-18-2007, 07:59 PM
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Thylantyr... I'm afraid to ask what you actually use that amplifier for! 7kW into 4 ohms bridged! SWEET MOTHER OF PEARL. That's a lotta, lotta juice.

On a side note, I just snagged a CE4000 off eBay. And I got a mint QSC PLX 1202 locally today for only $200 to drive the "little" speakers (mains, or maybe center channel).

Signature Challenged.
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post #417 of 1917 Old 11-18-2007, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btp View Post

Thylantyr... I'm afraid to ask what you actually use that amplifier for! 7kW into 4 ohms bridged! SWEET MOTHER OF PEARL. That's a lotta, lotta juice.

On a side note, I just snagged a CE4000 off eBay. And I got a mint QSC PLX 1202 locally today for only $200 to drive the "little" speakers (mains, or maybe center channel).

Congrats on your CE acquisition!

See this thread for my mod instructions.

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post #418 of 1917 Old 11-18-2007, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

I paid $2k on Ebay. If you have a bigger budget, and depending on the applicable, you can use something else as it probably is more manageable. On a positive note, it did run my sine wave testing all day]

Do you still have that amp? What do you use it for/on? Does it pack a wallop used on a subwoofer? How's the overall quality? After reading the specs and advertising it sounds like it used to be the bestest all around big daddy amp!

Oh yeah, and what about those TWO (2) 110 volt cords attached to the back of the amp? How did that work out? Is there a way to run both halves of the amp off one 110 volt cord? Or do you have to have both cords plugged in all the time?

This makes me wonder . . . . how much actual audio power (watts to the speaker) can we extract from one 110 volt 15 ampere circuit? From various amp testers, it kinda looks like it's some where around 2000 - 2500 watts using today's high efficiency class D, H, I, amps.
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post #419 of 1917 Old 11-19-2007, 10:08 AM
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115 volts * 15 amps = 1650 watts, so how could you get 2000 - 2500 watts RMS (sustained)? Besides that, no amp is 100% efficient.

Signature Challenged.
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post #420 of 1917 Old 11-19-2007, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btp View Post

On a side note, I just snagged a CE4000 off eBay.

$600 BIN, right?

Almost bought it myself early Sunday morning...but passed...

Not a bad deal at all from the prices I've seen.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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