Measuring Amplifiers - Page 60 - AVS Forum
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post #1771 of 1917 Old 03-23-2011, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99
Well, that's not bad, but consider a 3-4kW amp on the test bench or in your living room, trying to test full continuous output, will be looking for something on the order of 35-40A, give or take from the AC mains.
Well I'm already driving an 11 channel DSX array (7 channels off a Sherbourn 200/300 watt amplifier) to sometimes oppressive levels and everything seems ok.

I also have a Definitive Trinity subwoofer on the same circuit, all of my components, and my 60" Kuro and rarely do I see amperage draws over 12.0.

35-40 amps off a 15 amp household circuit have to be all but impossible even for more than a second or two I'd imagine.

James

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #1772 of 1917 Old 03-23-2011, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post
35-40 amps off a 15 amp household circuit have to be all but impossible even for more than a second or two I'd imagine.

James
Assuming I interpret the SQ D trip curves properly, somewhere between about 5 and 15 second @ 37.5A (2.5X the 15A breaker rating).

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #1773 of 1917 Old 03-24-2011, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by LINEARX View Post

Darn! We haven't seen or heard much from owners about the "Captivator" we've heard a lot about the Ed subs.
Good luck. Let us know how it works out and what amp you choose. Lot's of choices.

Well take heart, because I can tell you without hesistation that you will NOT find out a lot about the A7-450....NOT the sealed version, but the gigantic, 300lb, ported version.

I've read more about folks complaining about the lack of info on it rather than any solid info on it.

And granted mine will externally amplified, but I still plan on writing a thorough review on it when all is complete.

The Captivator has an entire thread dedicated to it if you're interested in it. Plenty of owner feedback there.

James

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post #1774 of 1917 Old 03-24-2011, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post

James,

I think there are two different issues with the Xti amplifiers.

One is the problem that Chuck found where the Xti 1000 had low power output below 100Hz. As the frequency decreased, so did the power output. Crown seems to have fixed that. My Xti 2000 amplifiers never suffered from that problem. See posts 1413 and 1428.

The second problem is the DC protection circuitry. To detect DC voltage at the amplifier output, a low pass filter at maybe 5Hz is applied to the output. Then the resulting signal is rectified into DC. This DC voltage is compared to some reference DC voltage level. If it gets above the reference voltage, the protection trips. The important thing to realize is that there could be either an actual 10VDC signal at the output of the amplifier or 20VAC of signal spread from 3-5Hz and no actual DC. Both of these could trip the DC protection circuit. How sensitive the DC protection circuit is to AC signals is a function of the LP filter frequency and the slope.

The problem occurs when you apply eq below about 40Hz to the signal. If your enclosure+driver is -3dB at 40Hz and you want the system to be -3dB at 10Hz, you need to apply 24dB of boost at 10Hz. When you do this, you are also going to be boosting frequencies below 10Hz. How much is a function of the eq filter type. It is easy to end up applying enough boost in the upper frequency range of the DC protection circuit to trigger it. This can occur at levels much lower than the amplifiers maximum power output. If you test for power output with sine waves, above 10Hz, you will never see this problem on the test bench.

My guess is that Crown doesn't care about this issue at all since the amplifier is designed for live sound applications where no one is boosting anything below 40Hz, so the problem doesn't occur.

You mentioned above that you found something about Crown making improvements to these problems on their website. If you can provide links, that would be appreciated.

Whew.

While I of course appreciate such an informed response, the second "problem" with the amp series has me nearly gasping for air.

What is sounds like to me is: when this amp is used with an EQ (Audyssey or otherwise) it's possible that the lower octaves will be "boosted" (to be brought more near to linear response) to the point that the amp will run into trouble and cease operation.

Is this a problem in real world use would be my next question. Seems a couple are using this with a very comparable sub to my own (The Captivator) without issues, so I'm wondering if it is.

James

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #1775 of 1917 Old 03-24-2011, 11:28 AM
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You have to take test bench performance in the right context, particularly if the results relate to duty cycle type stuff. Test bench is very severe duty cycle unlike just about anything you're likely to encounter in normal use.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #1776 of 1917 Old 03-24-2011, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

You have to take test bench performance in the right context, particularly if the results relate to duty cycle type stuff. Test bench is very severe duty cycle unlike just about anything you're likely to encounter in normal use.

Exactly, who sits around listening to sine waves or whatever.
In actually program material, they are coasting along 95% of the time. If not, you would not hear it anyway as your ears would be shot.

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post #1777 of 1917 Old 03-24-2011, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post
^ Don't suppose you can point to a vendor? All those I find say they won't be available for another month?

And if I cannot go below 20hz with these for filtering purposes, they don't really put me ahead either.

James
Parts Express is where I saw the XTi 2 series. Originally they had sometime in March, but looks like they got pushed back (or sold out).

I got to thinking about the original XTi 1000s performance, and was thinking about impedance curves. So I took a second look at the original measurement, and noticed two things. First, at 8 ohms, the power dropoff at 20Hz did not show up. Second, although he said he was going to do a mono test, I never saw a mono test done. So unless I missed something, this amplifier was never tested in bridged mono.

Finally, I looked at the impedance curve for a planned build utilizing a MaelX 18" driver:



So, in the real world (the one I happen to live in) the lowest resistance the amp will see in the subsonic range is about 5.23 ohms at 12.2Hz. We don't see impedance that low again until about 5Hz, at which point other factors will be attenuating the signal.

1) Will the low frequency deficiency of the 1000 series (assuming the 1002 has not been fixed) show up here? Maybe - in a band of frequencies from 11 to 15hz, and only if playing at or near reference.

2) Will it show up in bridged mono? That particular test was overlooked, so we don't know.

3) Will it show up -10db from reference? Given that I estimate 100W to get me there (200W if running 3db hot), probably not, although we don't know it's performance down to 10Hz.

4) In those tests, distortion was limited to .5% THD. No attempt was made to re-test while allowing for more THD. At those frequencies, the THD introduced by the driver is much higher, so allowing for 1-2% THD would be a negligible difference.

It will definitely be interesting to see the 1002 retested, especially if the bridged mono test isn't overlooked this time.
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post #1778 of 1917 Old 03-24-2011, 08:00 PM
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As can be seen by looking at spec sheets, bridged mono results will be the same power as the sum of both channels running stereo at twice the impedance.

i.e. 8 ohm bridged mono will be the same power as 2X the output per channel (both running simultaneously) at 4 ohms.

Noah
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post #1779 of 1917 Old 03-24-2011, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanLW View Post

4) In those tests, distortion was limited to .5% THD. No attempt was made to re-test while allowing for more THD. At those frequencies, the THD introduced by the driver is much higher, so allowing for 1-2% THD would be a negligible difference.

I agree re the THD of sub drivers especially at level, but if you look at the power vs distortion curves for typical high NFB SS amplifiers, the difference in power out between 1/2 and 2% will be a small fraction of a dB typically.
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post #1780 of 1917 Old 03-25-2011, 09:12 AM
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Chuck's tests involve AVS members personally owned amps and his testing process attempted to operate the amps within their own advertised stated parameters. When an amp showed distress the test was terminated to avoid permanently damaging someone's volunteered amp. In the instances where an amp over performed it's ad specs, Chuck took them to the limit of DIYers levels of inquiry.
The XTi-1000 underperformed significantly and the tests were terminated without forcing the amp past degrading distortion data points into possible destruction.
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post #1781 of 1917 Old 03-25-2011, 10:27 AM
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^ one of my favorite words, lol:

destruction.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #1782 of 1917 Old 03-25-2011, 12:20 PM
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Yeah, . . . . . we don't want those little heaters to become smoldering smudge pots.
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post #1783 of 1917 Old 03-25-2011, 12:31 PM
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One thing I'm taking away from my little adventure of finding an amp, seperate dsp, appropriate, converting (RCA to Phoenix, Phoenix to XLR), interconnects, etc:

An amp manufacturer could prolly make a decent penny producing an amplifier (1 and 2 channel for duals) "specifically" geared to drive passive subwoofers.

One with solid low-hz output and a built-in, variable, HLP. Heck, I'm sure many have a current model that could easily be modded for such a task.

just a thought.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #1784 of 1917 Old 03-25-2011, 12:50 PM
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We DIYers have been encouraging designers and engineers and manufacturers to do exactly that.
Closest we got so far was Peavey with the IPR 1600. The engineer was on here, this thread, trying to get him to understand our subsonic needs.
He tried to get us to understand the need for manufacturers to make money. His point was there aren't enough of us bass heads around to support a special project sub amp.
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post #1785 of 1917 Old 03-25-2011, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

One thing I'm taking away from my little adventure of finding an amp, seperate dsp, appropriate, converting (RCA to Phoenix, Phoenix to XLR), interconnects, etc:

An amp manufacturer could prolly make a decent penny producing an amplifier (1 and 2 channel for duals) "specifically" geared to drive passive subwoofers.

One with solid low-hz output and a built-in, variable, HLP. Heck, I'm sure many have a current model that could easily be modded for such a task.

just a thought.

James

There are nowhere near enough AV enthusiasts doing this to warrant the hassle, plus dealing with non industry professionals (amateurs, let alone audiophiles) is considerably more work.

As a miniDSP balanced is $155 and will drive two amps where realistically is the hassle? If you're going to the effort of making an integrating your own subs, this is a trivial amount of extra effort.
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post #1786 of 1917 Old 03-25-2011, 05:36 PM
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It is a bummer.

We tried the same with Behringer. They were taking suggestions for a modified version of the DCX to allow for filters down to 5Hz and other jazz. But, that fell through too.
However, other niche products have come to the market since, ala miniDSP.

It's the oldage, if you build it they will come.

When it comes to amps...It's not like we need a whole other product designed and engineered, etc. I mean we are talking about a slight mod(s) to add extension or handle more current, etc. So, why not come up with something and create a niche product?
The DIY community is not living on an island, some are professionals, some have other contacts in the audio community or employed in the audio related jobs, etc. Word of mouth and reputation can go a long way in promoting a company.

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post #1787 of 1917 Old 03-25-2011, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

As a miniDSP balanced is $155 and will drive two amps where realistically is the hassle? If you're going to the effort of making an integrating your own subs, this is a trivial amount of extra effort.

Do you have a miniDSP?
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post #1788 of 1917 Old 03-26-2011, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

One thing I'm taking away from my little adventure of finding an amp, seperate dsp, appropriate, converting (RCA to Phoenix, Phoenix to XLR), interconnects, etc:

An amp manufacturer could prolly make a decent penny producing an amplifier (1 and 2 channel for duals) "specifically" geared to drive passive subwoofers.

One with solid low-hz output and a built-in, variable, HLP. Heck, I'm sure many have a current model that could easily be modded for such a task.

just a thought.

James

People are buying Berhringer amplifier because they are cheaper vs Crown IT the new and old macro tech,QSC PL serie,Labgruppen, Powersoft just to name few that are equipped with all the bell and whisles you described, just a hand full of guy are buying those amplifiers like you described here.

Warning to prevent risk of injuries, you should always be smarter than the equipment you are about to use.
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post #1789 of 1917 Old 07-16-2011, 01:06 PM
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Is the EP4000 still the best bang for buck?

I compared the EP4000 to my American DJ V3000 amp today at avsforum member carp's house and his EP4000 seemed to be generally about 4-6dB louder than my American DJ amp on his single JTR Captivator.

The difference was significant enough for me to be interested in purchasing an EP4000, but if there is something just a wee more powerful for the same basic dollar figure, then I'm interested in looking into that too.

I will soon take delivery on a pair of JTR Captivator PRO subwoofers and don't want to limit them too terribly by my amp.



The EP4000 uses Peak ratings for it's power listings, but from what I've read it's a rebadged EP2500 which used RMS ratings.
Thus the EP4000 RMS ratings are just the EP 2500 output power specs (1 kHz, 0.1% THD) per channel stereo:
500 watts RMS @ 8 ohms,
750 watts RMS @ 4 ohms,
1,200 watts @ 2 ohms.
Output power (1 kHz, 0.1% THD)
bridged mono:
1,500 watts RMS @ 8 ohms,
2,400 watts RMS @ 4 ohms.
*Weight: 36.6 lbs. *Dimensions: 3.5" H x 19" W x 15.8" D.

I currently own a old American DJ V3000 amp which isn't too far off these marks. I found an old review where the big brother of my amp the V4000 was compared to a popular Crown amp at double the price (CROWN MACRO-TECH 2400) and not found lacking -- so that likely means that the v3000 amp does what it says it does. (Which admittedly isn't much) http://start.mobilebeat.com/archive/...php/t-154.html

It shows 1% THD instead of .1%THD
*Specifications: American DJ V3000 (1 kHz, 1.0% THD) per channel stereo:
400 watts RMS @ 8 ohms,
630 watts RMS @ 4 ohms,
800 watts RMW @ 2 ohms.
Output power (1 kHz, 1.0 % THD)
bridged mono:
1,100 watts RMS @ 8 ohms,
1,500 watts RMS @ 4 ohms.
*Weight: 35 lbs. *Dimensions: 3.5" H x 19" W x 15.9" D.


I did notice besides the SPL difference that carp had his EP4000 bridged and gain knob for channel 1 completely maxed out. When I maxed out the gain knob on my V3000 amp the sound got distorted at the same AVR volume level. I had to knock the v3000 gain back to about 80% for it to clean up the sound. At that point my sub was measuring 4-6dB less at the listening position, but the audio was clean. Is that an artifact of the higher distortion level of 1% on my sub verses .1% on the EP4000?

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post #1790 of 1917 Old 07-16-2011, 01:26 PM
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For the price you are going to have a hard time beating the EP4000 unless you score a deal on a good used amp. I picked up a used Face Audio F1150TX for a little more than a new EP4000 and the F1150TX is one of the best sub amps I have ever owned. I drove a pair of sealed LMS Ultra's with the F1150TX in stereo and it never left me wanting more power. I tried the same thing with the single EP4000 I have but to the same levels the EP4000 would run out of gas, it had to be used in bridged pairs to equal the single F1150TX.

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post #1791 of 1917 Old 07-16-2011, 07:36 PM
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Here is an interesting little note about the new Behringer INuke 3000.
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/NU3000DSP.aspx

From a Danish review translated by google -
"...gives 4 ohms 5625 watts peak (yes - I have calculated and measured correctly) - which is 2809 watts RMS 4 ohms."
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/be...ifiers-788601/


That's a lot of power for an amp that costs $300 shipped!
or $400 shipped with a dsp.

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post #1792 of 1917 Old 07-28-2011, 10:23 PM
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Anybody know of a single amp preferably or two amps that will run 4 10inch DVC subs...2+2 @ 500 watts each/2000 watts total?
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post #1793 of 1917 Old 07-29-2011, 10:38 AM
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depending on impedance, Peavey IPR3000

I measured mine at ~1500 W/ch at 2.8 ohms IIRC; check the ipr thread

Noah
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post #1794 of 1917 Old 07-29-2011, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

depending on impedance, Peavey IPR3000

I measured mine at ~1500 W/ch at 2.8 ohms IIRC; check the ipr thread

Wouldn't that be too much if I only need 1000 per channel?
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post #1795 of 1917 Old 07-29-2011, 01:41 PM
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not necessarily, depends on program material, room size, and your preferred listening level

Noah
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post #1796 of 1917 Old 07-29-2011, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

not necessarily, depends on program material, room size, and your preferred listening level

I guess I have a lot to learn. I have been only using amps that have been tested on this forum as to not break anything. Is there any plans to test the MA-5050?
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post #1797 of 1917 Old 07-29-2011, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

depending on impedance, Peavey IPR3000

I measured mine at ~1500 W/ch at 2.8 ohms IIRC; check the ipr thread

Hey Noah, have you written the IPR3000 up yet on a thread somewhere? I mean everything but the bench testing? I'd like to hear your impressions about it if you haven't.
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post #1798 of 1917 Old 08-01-2011, 12:17 AM
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I'm lucky to get in a movie per week lately, so my initial impressions still stand - sounds the same as the big iron Peavey CS4080Hz it replaced, which is a good thing.

Noah
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post #1799 of 1917 Old 08-04-2011, 07:20 PM
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Any idea what the xti2002 or xls2500 do In terms of real output
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post #1800 of 1917 Old 08-11-2011, 06:09 PM
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Is there an easy way for me to test my EP2500?
I'm not convinced both channels are outputting the same amount of power.
Or that either is delivering all the power they should be.

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