HUGE 7k IB sub system project has started!!! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 663 Old 06-28-2007, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dirtyharriett View Post

I knew someone would ask this. OK... you guys are going to think I am insane but I am going to get 3 of the JBL pro cinema 4632-T's and 12 JBL 8340A's. I was planning on using 9 x QSC 3602's and 3 QSC PL380's. The total system would have 12 x 18's, 20 x 15's, 12 x 10's and 12 x 6.5's plus a horde of horns. Total system power will be 50kw. We are having an additional 200amp service run into the house just for the HT. I am using the flagship theater of Empire cinemas in Leicester Square, London in the UK as my measuring stick. I have read that it is one of the best sounding and most sonically powerful commercial cinemas in the world. They are using 5 JBL 4632-t arrays... I will only have 3. They have 16 18' subs... I will only have 12 18's. They have 42 JBL 8340's... I will have only have 12. They are powering their system with 56kw.... I will only have 50kw. They are using DBX Driverack 4800's... I will start with DBX Driverack 260's but later upgrade to 4800's. I chose to use QSC amps instead of Crowns because I heard MANY times from people in the pro equipment business that the QSC's were more reliable. Below is a picture of their baffle wall. I have to take the HF/MF array off of the LF section and put it beside the HF/MF because they are 8' feet tall. This will allow them to fit behind the new SMX 166" AT 2:35 screen I will be getting. I will be using "Sandmanx"'s theater as my reference for aesthetics. Unfortunately my room layout will not allow for a close copy due to the slanted cathedral ceiling but I will do the best I can with what I have at this time...





The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #92 of 663 Old 06-28-2007, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

I don't just "think" it, I know for sure. What you're saying, essentially is that you have two midranges playing the same signal that are feet apart from one another, and the center-to-center spacing for the summed midranges and the horn is on the order of 5 feet. Not only that, the midrange array is less than a foot off the ground, which is just begging for massive floor bounce to ruin the sound at your ears. What you're going to hear at normal room distances is nothing but incoherent comb filtering. It will sound like there is a set of thick Venetian blinds between you and the music.

As for what the JBL Pro techs told you, let me give you a little window into what they must have been thinking. Since she thinks she needs so much output, and clearly has little understanding of acoustics, she must be deaf. So we might as well tell her that it's OK to buy our loudest product she's expressed a willingness to buy.

Party pooper, now you dunnit, she'll never come back and post on this thread



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The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #93 of 663 Old 06-28-2007, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by dirtyharriett View Post

It sure would be nice if someone came out with digital soundtracks to movies that used lossless audio tracks. They could even call it Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD master audio. Boy I bet that would sound nice... OH wait a minute... they already do ... ok... my bad...

you and armystud are talking about two different animals.
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post #94 of 663 Old 06-28-2007, 04:48 PM
 
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Wow, though I will have to agree with some others that say you are going way overboard I also have to say go for it & have fun. My room is about the same size as yours at 13 x 24 & I have a modest system IMO, & I get ear to ear grins when I show it off. I think you may have to have your guests sign a liability waver
It's nice to see someone stray away from the normal, regardless of what others think.
I think some of the guys here might just be a bit jealous because your a woman with bigger "Ah Hum" sub woofers than them.
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post #95 of 663 Old 06-28-2007, 04:53 PM
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I am not referring to compression algorithms like you are, I am referring to compression the actual soundwaves so that the peaks are completely chopped off. If you watch a signal graph of pretty much any recording, you will notice the largest peaks are clipped on the recording, this won't sound "clipped" though, they just compress the wave so that the peak doesn't rise up so much. If you listen to something like the 1812 overture, you will notice that the cannon noises have been compressed to allow them to fit on the recording, if they were to actually restore the full dynamics of the event, they would have to turn the master down 10-15dB so that the full effect of explosions could be captured.
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post #96 of 663 Old 06-28-2007, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dirtyharriett View Post

opinions are like.... well you know the rest....

You asked for a detailed answer, and got it. If you choose to not understand the answer, that is certainly your right.

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post #97 of 663 Old 06-28-2007, 07:35 PM
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I completely agree with all you're doing (as I would probably do the same if I had the cash and space) But what I don't understand is if you plan on listening at reference level and have the low distortion from the ridiculous amounts of headroom. Or do you plan on listening at +20db reference?
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post #98 of 663 Old 06-28-2007, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dirtyharriett View Post

I probably won't listen much louder than I do with my current system. It just should sound a WHOLE lot better if you know what I mean. I can hardly wait to hear the martian craft come up out of the ground and start vaporizing everyone in WOTW. That is going to sound sweet... I hope. I have never heard an IB sub system before so this will be a big change for me...

Wow, from never hearing an IB you are definitely in for a treat. I could describe a multiple driver, high displacement sub as very open, natural, and intimidating. You may not get what I mean but I guarantee when you fire up your subs you will know exactly what I mean. You will never look at ANY commercial sub the same way again.
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post #99 of 663 Old 06-28-2007, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyharriett View Post

It sure would be nice if someone came out with digital soundtracks to movies that used lossless audio tracks. They could even call it Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD master audio. Boy I bet that would sound nice... OH wait a minute... they already do ... ok... my bad...

Yes but have you ever actually heard DTS HD MA? According to the second post in the thread below it doesn't exist and it could be a really long time before it is fully implemented. Oh yea there is also a wonderful explanation of why HDMI 1.3 is totally unnecessary!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=867502
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post #100 of 663 Old 06-28-2007, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dirtyharriett View Post

When a cannon goes off I want it to sound and feel like it just hit the house. I want to feel gun shots on my chest like drum beats at a rock concert. No amount of home equipment will ever take me anywhere near this place... god only knows I have tried. .
I already know that what I am building is insane overkill; I hear it everywhere I go. BUT in the end I will get a system that will finally take me to the sound effects promised land I have been trying to get to all of my life. Here lies a bass freak whose hobby made them dead

Thats why I built these.
Quality, Quantity, Intimidating, Brute Force. 500lbs each, 80" tall with dual 12's, dual 10's, dual mids and a tweeter.




All in a 11 x 18 foot room. 2 dual 18" subs still to be added. The dual 12's have sub duties for now. When the subs get built they will be used as a low mid sound reinforcement.

Build it how you want it!!
Who gives a sh!t what everybody else thinks.
Sound is subjective as well as looks.
What sounds and looks good to one, looks and sounds terrible to another.

Good luck with your project, I am sure it will be all that you want and more.

Mike

MKtheater -"I just saw 300 tonight, great movie. I literally wanted to spear people after the show."

My speaker build. "PROJECT OVERKILL" WWMTMSS
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post #101 of 663 Old 06-29-2007, 01:24 AM
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Thats a start Kingpin, but why only 1 tweeter? He's lookin kinda lonely if you ask me
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post #102 of 663 Old 06-29-2007, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by dirtyharriett View Post

Chris, my manifold #1 is not installed completely yet. My next three Q18 drivers (which makes 4) are due in tomorrow (I have already purchased the 2nd set of 4 Q18's and they are due on 7/5). What if I just set the manifold in the room and mount the drivers. This would give me a chance to make the wiring harness BUT also maybe try them out a little. I am DYING to get this beast fired up... even if it is only 4 of the 12 drivers. What do you think it will sound like just sitting bottom down on my HT floor?

Setting the manifold on the floor and firing it up will most likely disappoint you. The whole concept of an IB is separation of the ft and rear waves of the driver. Patience...........

120@20@14'
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post #103 of 663 Old 06-29-2007, 06:59 AM
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It will disappoint you if you fire it up in free air like that.
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post #104 of 663 Old 06-29-2007, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

...Don't get me wrong, it absolutely insane, absurd, ridiculous, stupid, retarded and sick, but thats what makes it so amazing. ...

I second that! This plan is totally amazing in it's insanity!

Just please get an independent acoustical consultant etc. to design the acoustics of that relatively small space, I mean proper amounts on absorption/diffusion over proper frequency bands and on proper surfaces, placements of everything, etc... I'm actually a bit fearful your outrageous setup will not show its full potential due to inferior in-room acoustics. I hope I'm wrong.
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post #105 of 663 Old 06-29-2007, 07:53 AM
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DH,
Hats off to ya ! Lowing distortion is, in my opinion the biggest priority in HT sound systems.I learned that quick.


It is very easy to get people on the defence when your system differs with theirs. Read between the lines and do your research and you'll be fine. This is all trial and error and I'm sure your subs will live up to your design. Over kill ruins companies, but gives us just what we need as an end user.headroom,headroom,headroom!!!!!

Keep the photo's coming, and you may be our only female DIY'er.Thanx for sharing with us !

KG
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post #106 of 663 Old 06-29-2007, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by shr-t View Post

I second that! This plan is totally amazing in it's insanity!

Just please get an independent acoustical consultant etc. to design the acoustics of that relatively small space, I mean proper amounts on absorption/diffusion over proper frequency bands and on proper surfaces, placements of everything, etc... I'm actually a bit fearful your outrageous setup will not show its full potential due to inferior in-room acoustics. I hope I'm wrong.


Absolutely agree 100% To spend that kind of jack on equipment and not address the room would be absolute insanity.

120@20@14'
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post #107 of 663 Old 06-29-2007, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by shr-t View Post

Just please get an independent acoustical consultant etc. to design the acoustics of that relatively small space, I mean proper amounts on absorption/diffusion over proper frequency bands and on proper surfaces, placements of everything, etc... I'm actually a bit fearful your outrageous setup will not show its full potential due to inferior in-room acoustics. I hope I'm wrong.

Im sure it's going to be loud in any part of the room...... regardless of how things are placed

it's like being in a closet with a f-14 with afterburners on!!
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post #108 of 663 Old 06-29-2007, 09:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dirtyharriett View Post

I probably won't listen much louder than I do with my current system. It just should sound a WHOLE lot better if you know what I mean. I can hardly wait to hear the martian craft come up out of the ground and start vaporizing everyone in WOTW. That is going to sound sweet... I hope. I have never heard an IB sub system before so this will be a big change for me...

I would say that with the power you will have your going to think that martian is making its way out of your floor

Like the others have said as well, running the manifold sitting out will get you nothing, unless you just like watching the drivers move about. But once you drop that beast in the floor you should look something like
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post #109 of 663 Old 06-29-2007, 10:12 AM
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As someone who's already taken a similar but somewhat less well funded trip to dynamic audio bliss as Dirtyharriett I'm happy to say: Nicole...your officially my heroand Mr. Dirtyharriett is a lucky man.

Most people on these forums have no idea what having true impact in the mids and highs is all about. For instance my center uses two 15" mid-woofers and a 4" compression driver...all you have to do is watch ANY movie with Sam Elliott in it and you'd know what I mean. You not only hear him talk but you feel it in your gut...all without distortion...crackling...boominess...etc.

I'm sorry 6.5" mids and 1" tweets just don't cut it for me anymore.
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post #110 of 663 Old 06-29-2007, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dirtyharriett View Post

Durham, NC... when we are done I will GLADLY let fellow HT enthusiasts come over for a listen... by the way... I am a Dudette...

Sanford, NC here. I won't need directions, I'll just follow the sound.
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post #111 of 663 Old 06-29-2007, 11:11 AM
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Yes, DH, you are my hero right now!

You really should consider an in-depth acoustic analysis of the room so you can properly treat it. Because the room is arguably the most important part of your system.
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post #112 of 663 Old 06-29-2007, 11:47 AM
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THat's one awesome measuring stick!
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...tallation.html


Looking forward to your project!
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post #113 of 663 Old 06-29-2007, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr View Post

I listen to mostly metal and crazy music. But I also have Yanni Live at the Acropolis DVD. That concert is pretty nice at high SPL. It's a very interesting
audio experience to see the battle of violins playing when the system is running
at high output

i have that dvd

there is one song when they show a close-up of the bass player plucking a string on this beautiful floor standing bass

it's so awesome to see the string vibrate and to feel the deep clean powerful bass simultaneously, it's incredible

All this noise about noise.
♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫
Finding the acoustic sweet spot.
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post #114 of 663 Old 06-30-2007, 05:41 PM
 
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I find it very amusing that you have a pair of ear muffs pictured in the background
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post #115 of 663 Old 06-30-2007, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by sonytheater View Post

I find it very amusing that you have a pair of ear muffs pictured in the background

Haha, sustained listening to 120+dB bass can give you real bad headaches the day after. A bass hangover.

I don't blame her for the earmuffs I use them too when seeing how loud it could go.
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post #116 of 663 Old 06-30-2007, 08:13 PM
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But really, will this thing beat a Gatham.......I had to.........no one else took the time to think of it.....no wait, how about the krell Master what ever.......hold on there are more...


Has anyone figured the excursion at about 120db for...lets say 15hz. I'l bet those things don't move more than 1/2" peak to peak.


KG
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post #117 of 663 Old 06-30-2007, 08:59 PM
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Chrisbee said it over on the cult, if she sees cone movement at all, she can kiss her hearing goodbye.

Jerry the HT Nut
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post #118 of 663 Old 07-01-2007, 12:52 AM
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If she sees cone movement at all, she kiss her dreams of staying amongst the living goodbye.

120dB at 15Hz comes with a 18mm peak to peak cone movement, roughly 1/3 of the drivers' xmax.

At xmax, she will hit 130dB at 15Hz, this is a feat that would make most car stereo guys drop their jaws.


*edit, my mistake I modeled that for 16 drivers, she 'only' has 12, this means she hits 120dB at 15Hz with 24mm of peak to peak excursion (12 of the 27mm of xmax) with the full 54mm stroke, she would hit 127dB at 15Hz. Although this model really means nothing because it is the 1m gp measurement and the woofers would never be with 1m of each other.
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post #119 of 663 Old 07-01-2007, 02:40 AM
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I can but the problem is that you are getting into such an insane vas that you won't even have an IB anymore if your enclosure isn't big enough, you will just have a plain old sealed sub. I would need to know how many cubic feet your crawlspace is, or whatever you are using for the enclosure.

Just for kicks, using your described system would yield 143dB at 27Hz in a 2000 cubic foot enclosure, at this point your run out of XMAX and start to really distort the drivers, shortly after this the drivers bottom out, do this very much and your drivers are completely smoked. At 20Hz the driver array can only take 14,500watts producing 138dB, at 10Hz the drivers can only take 9800watts producing 126dB, at 5Hz the drivers can take 8900watts - 113dB, lastly at 1Hert the drivers can take 7500watts, only 77.5dB. Keep in mind that even within xmax these drivers are going to exhibit some crazy amounts of distortion with this kind subsonic load, they just aren't made to move super slow. Also keep in mind that those #'s are 1meter ground plane estimations and bear little evidence of actual performance, partly because modeling isn't perfect but also because you will never be within 1meter of all these drivers. Also, of course you know that in your room they will behave entirely differently.
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post #120 of 663 Old 07-01-2007, 03:38 AM
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Hmm, I dunno if thats very promising, you might just be making a massive, high Q, sealed sub. Lets assume that each manifold that holds 4 18's is 12 cubic feet, 6 of those is 72 cubic feet, but lets give you the benefit of the doubt and say its 100, this would mean that you enclosure would at best be 1000 cubic feet, at worst, I'd say about 4-500. 1000 isn't so bad, but it really isn't IB standards, 500 or so isn't an IB at all with the amount of drivers you have. An IB is typically 10x the combined vas of all the drivers, with very low Q drivers, you can get away with 5x or a tad less if you wish. The vas of 24 Q18's is about 240cubic feet, this means that you are looking at between 2-4x vas. Now, it is IB'ish, it will have many of of its defining characteristics, and there will probably be some that will say that it is an IB, but from my understanding, it won't, especially not with a very high Q driver like the Q18.

By adding 12 extras you will change your setup from IB to a large sealed sub, you will have crazy leaks in your crawlspace, even if you go through the work of sealing them up. Not just this but you are also basically making your room into a large sealed sub, this is pretty sweet to think about, but I just might have to say that it is a bit excessive...by anyone's standards. I don't remember how big your room is though, if its 1500-2000 cubic feet, things will be interesting, if its 4000-6000 cubic feet, then flame on I say!
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