Any 18’s on the horizon with XBL^2? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 711 Old 02-04-2008, 02:13 PM
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Well the real problem with that, Kevin, wouldn't so much be that we couldn't trust you, but rather that your data wouldn't translate as a real world comparison to other tests. The nice thing about ilkka is that he has tested so many systems with his same methods, for your data to mean anything, we would have to see how it compares to some of the models ilkka tested and go from there.
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post #92 of 711 Old 02-04-2008, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

You don't need 44mm of xmax or even 38mm xmax to get me interested, as we already discussed, those ideas are just too impractical, even in large ported enclosures, it can be hard to use that much excursion, as you know, you need 4x the power to get the driver to do twice the excursion. I'd be psyched about an 18 with ~30mm xmax. It would be real nice to have a lower qts, that way we could 6-7 cubes sealed and yield a critically damped box, unlike our current high excursion 18" offerings. Your right, super tiny enclosures for PR's don't make sense either, too much mass is required and its too hard on the PR's. But I would love it if we could do 8 cubes or so tuned to ~15Hz with a pair of 18" PR's. A hp filter would be in order, but as I see it, there is just no need to do insane excursion due to the how prohibitive it can be, requiring beefier PR's, more power, higher cost ect. What would be nice is a target price right around $650 or so, kinda like an 18" tumult. That way you wouldn't price yourself outside of the market and could still generate enough demand to keep costs down and profits up a bit. If it can't be done, hey it can't be done, thats fine, its just what I think would revolutionize the diy market.

Yea.... Larry is right. The current Maelstrom-X which IS coming to market fits your needs. It models pretty good with a couple big PRs in about 7-8 cubic feet. It has a Tumult-like motor, with some Le improvements. The BL curve is -30% @ 33mm, 20% @ 30mm & 10% @ 26-27mm. X-mech is out to around 41mm. It has a couple shorting rings in it so the Le curve is pretty sweet too. Cost is projected to be $350 so your saving some money too.

The driver I'm talking about would be a LMS-5400 type driver with similar performance & T/S parameters. Hopefully better performance, since we should be able to improve upon both the inductance and suspension linearity.

We would design a 4" VC using XBL^2 to match their listed BL curve, we would use some super secret Le tricks, we would tool and design both a 12" spider & symmetric surround that would have very good Kms/Cms curves. We would have to tool a basket too.... Overall, it would be an overkill design to minimize Le, BL & suspension non-linear behavior.

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post #93 of 711 Old 02-04-2008, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Well the real problem with that, Kevin, wouldn't so much be that we couldn't trust you, but rather that your data wouldn't translate as a real world comparison to other tests. The nice thing about ilkka is that he has tested so many systems with his same methods, for your data to mean anything, we would have to see how it compares to some of the models ilkka tested and go from there.

Point taken, and I don't have time to measure everything under the sun either.

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post #94 of 711 Old 02-04-2008, 03:22 PM
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Exactly, and therein lies our dilemma. Also, there is a lot of information that, unfortunately, a gp measurement simply doesn't tell. How a sup performs in a room is all too often very different. For example, if I took an opposed driver, sealed subwoofer and measured its gp performance, the gp measurement would not demonstrate the reverb effect that second driver (or even a port) would have on the wall behind it, providing a massive amount of gain, possibly in the realm of 4-6dB! I don't know how much it winds up being, simply because I haven't tested it before. Of course, rooms bring some many problems into the equation of testing subwoofers that we quickly dismiss them, understandably. However, this does not make the gp results any less misleading than they are. We need to understand that, especially for subs that are receiving additional output from sources not facing the mic, in room measurements will be drastically different from gp measurements, subs that have all front firing output are easier to tell with gp.
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post #95 of 711 Old 02-04-2008, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Kevin,

Negatory, I'm signed up for a pair of the Maelstrom's and won't be changing direction here. Our wishful thinking per your 'LMS Slayer' would be in addition to this...course I'd need more Face Audio gear too

Larry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Haskins View Post

I agree.... Ilkka's measurements generated a lot of interest. But here is part of the problem. You where going to buy a pair of Maelstrom's so I just lost a sale.

All joking aside, I'd send a unit to Ilkka for 3-rd party measurements. He needs a chamber though.... those outdoor THD measurements are highly suspect. I have access to a good chamber which would actually give more accurate THD measurements but nobody would trust me.

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post #96 of 711 Old 02-04-2008, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 04FLHRCI View Post

Kevin,

Negatory, I'm signed up for a pair of the Maelstrom's and won't be changing direction here. Our wishful thinking per your 'LMS Slayer' would be in addition to this...course I'd need more Face Audio gear too

Larry

Your one of my favorite customers Larry.

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post #97 of 711 Old 02-04-2008, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Haskins View Post

It takes more than thought.... it takes $$$$ ;-)

At this time I'm paying for the new Maelstrom-X, the DPL-15 and a new PR. I also have a new plate amp integrating the Woofer Widget to fund so there is a limit to my pocketbook.

Maybe later this year.

Certainly. I meant the idea of it is something to think about or ponder. Sure, it wouldn't sell like the Tempest-X, but as the market in general expands, more folks are willing to pay for a pricier driver if it at least performs as its price would suggest.

Quote:


The driver I'm talking about would be a LMS-5400 type driver with similar performance & T/S parameters. Hopefully better performance, since we should be able to improve upon both the inductance and suspension linearity.

We would design a 4" VC using XBL^2 to match their listed BL curve, we would use some super secret Le tricks, we would tool and design both a 12" spider & symmetric surround that would have very good Kms/Cms curves. We would have to tool a basket too.... Overall, it would be an overkill design to minimize Le, BL & suspension non-linear behavior.

If you could actually put out a driver such as this, for around $1K or less, you'd have a winner.
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post #98 of 711 Old 02-04-2008, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

If you could actually put out a driver such as this, for around $1K or less, you'd have a winner.

Without a doubt. I don't know how many would be sold, but if it could handle just as much power as the LMS (if not more), the car audio guys would be all over it. That would certainly help sales.

YID DIY
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post #99 of 711 Old 02-04-2008, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Haskins View Post

We would design a 4" VC using XBL^2 to match their listed BL curve, we would use some super secret Le tricks, we would tool and design both a 12" spider & symmetric surround that would have very good Kms/Cms curves. We would have to tool a basket too.... Overall, it would be an overkill design to minimize Le, BL & suspension non-linear behavior.

To clarify, this is a purely hypothetical driver?

I can't wait to see the Maelstrom-X. I've been considering some 18s and looking at the specs and price this seems like quite the driver.
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post #100 of 711 Old 02-04-2008, 07:03 PM
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Kevin,

When is the Maelstrom-X going to show up ? Any rough projection, I am INTERESTED. Like ...SOLD. You know I am in a mad driver purchase mode.

The time is now,I let the LMS fly by... ,this will not happen again.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #101 of 711 Old 02-04-2008, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffstgermaine View Post

To clarify, this is a purely hypothetical driver?

I can't wait to see the Maelstrom-X. I've been considering some 18s and looking at the specs and price this seems like quite the driver.

Yes... hypothetical at this point.

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post #102 of 711 Old 02-04-2008, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

Kevin,

When is the Maelstrom-X going to show up ? Any rough projection, I am INTERESTED. Like ...SOLD. You know I am in a mad driver purchase mode.

The time is now,I let the LMS fly by... ,this will not happen again.

Chinese New Year is holding us up a little. I should have the final engineering sample sometime after the holiday. From that point its about 60 days until I have them in stock.

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post #103 of 711 Old 02-04-2008, 09:15 PM
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is there a place to pre-order these? where will they be sold from? diycable.com ?
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post #104 of 711 Old 02-04-2008, 11:28 PM
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"You have a Crown K2 hooked up to a pair of Avalanche 18s, right?"

Right

"So you're either running ~4ohm a channel or 8ohm bridged, correct?"

Running one channel @2 ohms, so 1250 W.

"And you've clipped it when nothing else was running on the 20A circuit or only when all the other stuff you listed was as well?"

Everything was going; I was watching Serenity.

"So you're assuming that all the other stuff you listed doesn't pull 5A of current or more and that there is zero line sag occurring, correct?"

I'm assuming the other stuff *did* draw at least 5 A, so 20 A total.

Perhaps I misunderstood your point; I thought by the breaker being the limiting factor that it would trip.

Or did you mean it would cause the amp to clip from line sag? If so, I don't know how you can generalize w/o knowing the length and size of wiring all the way back to the power pole.

"You could toss 100 drivers in that room, and have the efficiency increased massively, but the circuit would still be a limiting factor."

The goal is sufficient clean output. 100 speakers would increase efficiency and output by more than 20 dB.

With 100X less power required, how is the circuit limiting the system performance?

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post #105 of 711 Old 02-04-2008, 11:47 PM
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"I'd be psyched about an 18 with ~30mm xmax."

Doesn't the XJ-18 already do that?

Kevin,

"The BL curve is -30% @ 33mm, 20% @ 30mm & 10% @ 26-27mm."

The Maelstrom sounds just like the XJ-18. How do they differ? If you can point me to T-S specs I can answer that myself.

Any specs yet on the new PR? Will there be one for Qms?

Noah
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post #106 of 711 Old 02-05-2008, 07:56 PM
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I want a few of them.

"The choices we make define our lives, because choice, not chance, determines destiny"

They call me the 18 year old DJ Audiophile-upgradeitis infected-guy!
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Maelstrom X = XJ-18
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post #108 of 711 Old 02-05-2008, 09:45 PM
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"Maelstrom X = XJ-18"

Ah, thanks.

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post #109 of 711 Old 02-05-2008, 09:49 PM
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They come out...I order...

Cannot repeat myself enough. No more letting drivers fly by...

I am bass deprived

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #110 of 711 Old 02-05-2008, 11:17 PM
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I will take 2 monsters I am looking to shell out $1000 a piece for JL 13w7 drivers. But if I could get better performing 18" now we are talking.

Nate

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post #111 of 711 Old 02-06-2008, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Nasty N8 View Post

I will take 2 monsters I am looking to shell out $1000 a piece for JL 13w7 drivers. But if I could get better performing 18" now we are talking.

Nate

Four Maelstrom-X's (regardless of their final TSP at production), will destroy 2 JLW7's and cost less. Just one has a vd of a tad over 7liters. Two 13W7's displace around 8 liters. 28L vs 8L

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post #112 of 711 Old 02-07-2008, 02:13 PM
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Ok... we have ran some numbers on this and we think it can be done. For you people with mental problems and bass related disorders.

Project Goals:

*18" Driver with Insane amounts of output, and the world's best linearity.
*X-max 40mm one-way, over 8.6L of Vd.
*X-mech 50mm
*4" VC with a few tricks to improve power dissipation. Dual 3 Ohm voice coils because your going to need a pro-amp to power it. No plate amp on the earth has the power necessary to fully take advantage of this beast. I'm optimizing it so that it works with the Face Audio F1200-TS that has two channels of 1775W into 3 Ohms. That gives us 3550W of power (not continuous but should get peak power without tripping anything) that functions on a 20A breaker and cost only $785. Car audio competition guys get a 1.5 Ohm load.
*Some incredible tricks to minimize Le & Le based distortion/flux modulation with power, VC position and frequency. Counter-coil rather than shorting rings which doesn't saturate with power.
*World's most linear suspension components, 12" tooled spider with some special tricks, stay tuned. RevSurround with symmetric Cms curve for the surround. Tinsel leads integrated into the spider for zero lead-slap or noise.
*Same T/S parameters as the Maelstrom-X. So... should work great in 7-12 cubic feet PR or ported, >5-6 cubic feet sealed.

*Projected Price <$1000 ea
*Projected Weight: 40-45lbs (we are using neo motor to keep size/weight under control)
*Projected Availability: Fall 2008 Shooting for November

I may run a batch of 18" PRs with the same suspension components and basket so we can have a reasonable sized PR design right out of the gate. Projected package price of driver, PRs + Pro-amp $2K

No pre-orders, I'll only sell them when I have stock. By that time I'll have production parameters and hopefully some basic measurements to back-up performance claims.

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post #113 of 711 Old 02-07-2008, 02:19 PM
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not gunna lie...that was exciting to read

Sounds Great Kevin! Hows the more humane 18 coming??
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post #114 of 711 Old 02-07-2008, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
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not gunna lie...that was exciting to read

Sounds Great Kevin! Hows the more humane 18 coming??

Its Chinese New Year so nothing happens until after vacation.

The design is done, we are just fiddling with suspension compliance and mass. We should see the 3rd pre-production prototype measured this month and then its 60 days until I have inventory.

I expect late April early May before they are shipping.

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post #115 of 711 Old 02-07-2008, 02:43 PM
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Kevin,

SIGN ME IN

This is NOT the year of the RAT...it is the year of the SUBWOOFER ! Cannot wait to see this beast ready for shipping,I order TWO.

I have money set aside,NOW.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #116 of 711 Old 02-07-2008, 03:08 PM
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Do you guys like flat cones? I have a sample of this sexy flat aluminum honeycomb cone, flat black.

If you have any ideas for cone cosmetics let me know.

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post #117 of 711 Old 02-07-2008, 03:38 PM
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Pics????

Nate

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10,000 Watts, custom built speakers, 10' CIH screen = Holy Crap
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post #118 of 711 Old 02-07-2008, 04:00 PM
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those flat black sound nice...ive also always liked the titanium or silver fronts with a nice black finish for the box....you deliver half of what your talking about and you can make it whatever the heck you want and ill still be buying at least 2...
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post #119 of 711 Old 02-07-2008, 04:15 PM
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I'll take some pics of the 15" sample I have. Its kind of a glossy black which I didn't like but we can cover the face with whatever finish we want.

It could be a thin aluminum layer with silkscreen, anodizing or laser engraving. The sky is the limit if you throw money at it. The only issue with aluminum is denting. If you smack it good it leaves an dent in the cone. The flat aluminum honeycomb sample I have is tough, very difficult to dent. It could have a carbon fiber face and that would probably hold up better than an aluminum face.

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post #120 of 711 Old 02-07-2008, 05:35 PM
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Man oh man, that's a sweet sounding driver.

The honeycomb cones sounds pretty interesting. I can't wait to see pics. I'd probably be down for one of these with a couple of PRs.
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