Any 18’s on the horizon with XBL^2? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 711 Old 02-09-2008, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Sweet!

Hmm, so if you're using a 1200 per driver; I suppose I need to order a second unit...Oh, by the way; I'm ready for my Maelstroms

Larry
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post #182 of 711 Old 02-09-2008, 05:57 PM
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Quote:


WillD,
Right, but at that point you could just buy another driver. Maybe what we need is for the PR's to have the uber excursion instead of the drivers?

What would you do with the two drivers then, run them sealed? The same thing could be said for virtually any driver chosen. Why go with an SDX and two PRs when you could get two SDXs for the same money? Etc....
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post #183 of 711 Old 02-09-2008, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Willd View Post

What would you do with the two drivers then, run them sealed? The same thing could be said for virtually any driver chosen. Why go with an SDX and two PRs when you could get two SDXs for the same money? Etc....

You need both.... look at the excursion plots. That is two 18" PRs with the same suspension and mechanical travel as the driver.

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post #184 of 711 Old 02-09-2008, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

What would you do with the two drivers then, run them sealed? The same thing could be said for virtually any driver chosen. Why go with an SDX and two PRs when you could get two SDXs for the same money? Etc....

Right. Running 2 sealed vs one PR'd could be an option.I'm not saying that either way is better. Its just when you start talking about 3 and 4 PR's per one driver it seems like a lot of trouble to go to.
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post #185 of 711 Old 02-09-2008, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Right. Running 2 sealed vs one PR'd could be an option.I'm not saying that either way is better. Its just when you start talking about 3 and 4 PR's per one driver it seems like a lot of trouble to go to.


Three doesn't work so well. You get some enclosure rocking. Having two PRs with the driver downfiring works good though. You can center the driver on the enclosure and the force from the two PRs on opposing sides cancels.

As shown in the simulations, the dual sealed would take up more space, require an extra amp and have more distortion down low. From simply looking at the simulation the dual PRs is an attractive way to go.

Figure:

$1K for the driver
$500 for x2 18" PR
$785 for the Amp
$300 Woofer Widget
--------------------
$2585 Plus MDF for enclosure

That gives you everything you need including room measurement, 4-band PEQ, Subsonic Filter and other subwoofer signal processing functions.

You get >125db in-room from 14hz up.

About 114dB anechoic from 20Hz and up.

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post #186 of 711 Old 02-09-2008, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Haskins View Post

You need both.... look at the excursion plots. That is two 18" PRs with the same suspension and mechanical travel as the driver.

Both what?

Keep in mind, this is all w.r.t the Maelstrom, not the Extreme-x driver.
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post #187 of 711 Old 02-09-2008, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Both what?

Keep in mind, this is all w.r.t the Maelstrom, not the Extreme-x driver.

Excursion on both the PR & the driver.

The Maelstrom-X would work in the exact same enclosure with just less output.

$350 Maelstrom-X
$260 x2 18" PR's from Creative Sound
$300 Behringer Amp
$300 Woofer Widget
-----------------
$1210


Same capabilities but output is lower: Still.... very good. Double up on these and you would have close to the same output.

>111dB @ 1M from 20Hz and up.
>123dB @ 1M from 15Hz and up in-room.

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post #188 of 711 Old 02-09-2008, 07:49 PM
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Just had a thought, why not use a 21" woofer basket for the 18"?
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/5210700...PA_Speaker.jpg
I can give you contact to the manufacturer if you like. Are your buildhouses in China?
They could probably do the manufacturing for you.

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post #189 of 711 Old 02-09-2008, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spezzy View Post

Just had a thought, why not use a 21" woofer basket for the 18"?
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/5210700...PA_Speaker.jpg
I can give you contact to the manufacturer if you like. Are your buildhouses in China?
They could probably do the manufacturing for you.

We almost get too much Sd with a 21". For our box sizes the 18" looks like about the right size.

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post #190 of 711 Old 02-09-2008, 08:33 PM
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21" drivers,no no boxes needed...to large. To make a 21" work well in the same box as a competent 18" you need one heck of a huge motor. And this would push prices up. Then all the excitement would result in a few orders.

A great 18" driver is all we need,multiples can be used if one is not enough.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #191 of 711 Old 02-09-2008, 09:24 PM
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I think he meant use the 21 inch basket for the 18".... trouble is it would have a small spider land. This would give you room for a huge surround... but not enough of a spider.

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
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post #192 of 711 Old 02-09-2008, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

I think he meant use the 21 inch basket for the 18".... trouble is it would have a small spider land. This would give you room for a huge surround... but not enough of a spider.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of.
Didn't know about the spider part, bad idea I guess.

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post #193 of 711 Old 02-09-2008, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

WillD,
Right, but at that point you could just buy another driver. Maybe what we need is for the PR's to have the uber excursion instead of the drivers?

Army,
Actually 22ft tuned to 15hz looks do-able to me, or 25ft tuned to 14hz. These have a built in house curve. Of course what this thing really wants is 40ft tuned to 11hz. I think what I'm going to do at first is put it in 10ft sealed & stuffed. I got it for $710 and I'm pretty certain that I can get most if not all of that back if I decide to sell it. I just wanted to try it out. If it isn't doing it for me, I'll get rid of it. Somebody had to try one for HT at some point.

$710 is a NICE price, I looked into that driver a while back, the cheapest I was quite was $1800. They do have a built in house curve due to the lower fs and the fact that the cone just never stops going out, I tend to like woofers that are down 6dB or so at the tuning, I often times still wind up having to tame the response a bit so, more output down there is really a waste. That driver also seems to want perhaps even a sub 10Hz tuning, I'd to do something like 7Hz tune in a closet size box.
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post #194 of 711 Old 02-10-2008, 12:16 AM
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Kevin,

That's for addressing our questions and for the interesting simulations.

You say 100% fill for the boxes; should your Q values perhaps be a bit lower?

I especially wonder about Qp, to which output is quite sensitive. Have you done any experimenting to see how far the stuffing needs to from the PR diaphragms to have minimal affect?

Noah
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post #195 of 711 Old 02-11-2008, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Kevin,

That's for addressing our questions and for the interesting simulations.

You say 100% fill for the boxes; should your Q values perhaps be a bit lower?

I especially wonder about Qp, to which output is quite sensitive. Have you done any experimenting to see how far the stuffing needs to from the PR diaphragms to have minimal affect?

Are you talking about the Q mechanical for the PR, QL box loss or Qtc of the system?

I'm not sure how many variables Ingmar changes with the %fill. That is a good question. If you change the % fill its about the same as increasing the box size by 10-15% in terms of tuning frequency of either the PRs or a port. Box losses would be higher but not enough to make a significant change in the response. I play with a range of them when I'm simulating a design because its difficult to know exactly what its going to be in the finished box design. You tend to get overall lower Qtc but that goes hand-hand with the larger box size.

The Q of the PRs should be independent of fill. If I'm doing a final design I play with some of the variables. You can also play with % fill in final product to make subjective choices about the real system. The PR system would allow you to play with tuning frequency & % fill much easier than a port. Just change mass & add/remove fill.

I have the QL = 15 which is probably what your talking about. A more typical QL = 7 would probably have been a better choice. It doesn't make a huge difference in the response though.

And no... I've not done any experimentation with how far the stuffing should be from the back of either the driver or the PR. I just stuff the enclosure such that I have plenty of wiggle room between the fill & the driver. I figure a 3"-4" buffer is plenty.

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post #196 of 711 Old 02-11-2008, 12:46 PM
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"Are you talking about the Q mechanical for the PR, QL box loss or Qtc of the system?"

Good question

I guess not Qa at that low freq.

If the fill moves, I guess that would be equivalent to box leakage, Ql.

"I figure a 3"-4" buffer is plenty."

Maybe, but I wonder, when the PR is capable of moving to within an inch of it.

It would be interesting to put in a plexiglass porthole so you could see what the fill does in operation.

Noah
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post #197 of 711 Old 02-16-2008, 08:25 AM
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I am curious to what this beast of a sub will look like
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post #198 of 711 Old 02-16-2008, 10:23 AM
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I am curious to what this beast of a sub will look like

Me too...

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post #199 of 711 Old 02-16-2008, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by aduljr View Post

I am curious to what this beast of a sub will look like

"Scariest environment imaginable...thanks. That's all you had to say, scariest environment imaginable" -Armageddon.

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post #200 of 711 Old 02-16-2008, 07:28 PM
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To keep this thread alive....

Kevin,

Better make sure this beast ~$1000 driver is produced,I am waiting.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #201 of 711 Old 02-17-2008, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

To keep this thread alive....

Kevin,

Better make sure this beast ~$1000 driver is produced,I am waiting.

Nov 2008. The wheels are in motion.

I've been given a shipping date for the Maelstrom-X & DPL-15 of April 15th.

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post #202 of 711 Old 02-17-2008, 09:20 AM
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Dpl-15?
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post #203 of 711 Old 02-17-2008, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Haskins View Post

Nov 2008. The wheels are in motion.

I've been given a shipping date for the Maelstrom-X & DPL-15 of April 15th.

Going to have to mark the calender. Sounds like a good reason to throw a party

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Dpl-15?

/\\
l l Yeah, what he said.

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post #204 of 711 Old 02-17-2008, 01:39 PM
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The DPL-15 is our IB/Dipole specific design.

Most of these will probably sell as IBs. I'm going to run a special when they arrive, $240 for two, $450/ for four, $850 for eight and all prices include shipping.

Not only will it represent a great value for IBs, with an excellent Cost/L of displacement, the XBL^2 motor and low inductance AlCu shorting rings promise very linear output. We maximized pole vent & basket spacing for low noise operation also.

Don't be fooled by the efficiency, they only need about 200W per driver to get up and moving in IB use. Model them, in an IB install they have great extension.

Singles are $125 each plus shipping.

Pre-Production Parameters:

Re: 6.1 Ohm
Le: 1.7 mH
Fs: 19.5 Hz
Qms: 3.27
Qes: 0.84
Qts: 0.67
Mms: 271g
Cms: 0.23 mm/N
Vas: 232L
Sd: 830 cm^2
Vd: 3.65L
BL: 15.67
SPL: 85.2 1W/1M
X-max: 22mm
X-mech 29mm


Motor Design:









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post #205 of 711 Old 02-17-2008, 07:31 PM
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Outstanding news !

In this case April and November are subwoofer order days.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #206 of 711 Old 02-17-2008, 09:00 PM
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[quote=Kevin Haskins;13139119]The DPL-15 is our IB/Dipole specific design.

Most of these will probably sell as IBs. I'm going to run a special when they arrive, $240 for two, $450/ for four, $850 for eight and all prices include shipping.

Not only will it represent a great value for IBs, with an excellent Cost/L of displacement, the XBL^2 motor and low inductance AlCu shorting rings promise very linear output. We maximized pole vent & basket spacing for low noise operation also.

Don't be fooled by the efficiency, they only need about 200W per driver to get up and moving in IB use. Model them, in an IB install they have great extension.

Singles are $125 each plus shipping.

Pre-Production Parameters:

Re: 6.1 Ohm
Le: 1.7 mH
Fs: 19.5 Hz
Qms: 3.27
Qes: 0.84
Qts: 0.67
Mms: 271g
Cms: 0.23 mm/N
Vas: 232L
Sd: 830 cm^2
Vd: 3.65L
BL: 15.67
SPL: 85.2 1W/1M
X-max: 22mm
X-mech 29mm

This looks pretty much the same as the the Fi car 15 Sub specs except that this one has 5mm more xmech and quite possibly a lower distortion motor. Price is the same too, wow, very nice. Now, you just need to make an 18" that costs $200 with 30mm xmax and maybe 36mm xmech with a large vas for a another good, larger IB/dipole driver.
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post #207 of 711 Old 02-17-2008, 10:51 PM
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wish I had the space and the permission to do the DPL-15...
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post #208 of 711 Old 02-18-2008, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

This looks pretty much the same as the the Fi car 15 Sub specs except that this one has 5mm more xmech and quite possibly a lower distortion motor. Price is the same too, wow, very nice. Now, you just need to make an 18" that costs $200 with 30mm xmax and maybe 36mm xmech with a large vas for a another good, larger IB/dipole driver.

I'm probably not going to do another 18". I prefer the 15"s for IB use because the manifold gets too large for four driver configurations. They also don't fit between standard stud spacing so there are some mechanical reasons to prefer a 15" vs. an 18". For IBs, just keep adding drivers until you get the output you need.

Both are IB drivers to its not surprising to see spec's close to the same. I can assure you though, the BL curve is flat, and the inductance is extremely well controlled.

XBL^2 has lost some converts since Wiggins was promoting it hard. I found most people don't give the split/gap short coil motor a second thought. When Adire went down the tubes and they put out all that crappy product and their reputation went in the toilet. Also, there has been some testing of product where people didn't see distortion improvements. Somehow people came to the conclusion that XBL^2 motors, are not necessarily delivering what they say. Somehow the driver really isn't any better. Nothing could be further from the truth. Flat BL certainly isn't the entire story but its a big part of getting low distortion. The ENTIRE driver design is important though, XBL^2 or other motor topology. If your suspension non-linearities dominate the THD spectrum, it won't matter that you have flat BL because there are other factors that are limiting you. That doesn't mean that XBL^2 is a poor design choice. It means that you need to work on your suspension design!

Anyway.... I'm rambling. Just venting to start the day.

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post #209 of 711 Old 02-18-2008, 10:11 PM
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your ramblings are pretty damn interesting if you ask me
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post #210 of 711 Old 02-18-2008, 10:51 PM
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"your ramblings are pretty damn interesting if you ask me"

+1 v

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