RL-P18 meets the "DOH! button" - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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post #301 of 330 Old 12-14-2007, 04:54 PM
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Incredible Brad! I have a concern though. I had 5" of snow in PA and my snow blower had a warning stating to use ear protection because at idle it's 109db! I know 117db would be very rare in real world use and the snow blower is constant noise, but we must remind ourselves that these are ear damaging levels. Don't get me wrong. I love high performance too, but I/we have to be careful. It's very easy to forget.

Still, very impressive numbers Brad!

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post #302 of 330 Old 12-14-2007, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks... I'm still amazed at what these subs will do and can't imagine life (er, uh... I mean movies) without them!

I'm pretty sure low frequency sound doesn't affect your hearing in the way higher frequencies do, but maybe I should do a little research on that.

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post #303 of 330 Old 12-15-2007, 11:32 AM
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Good setup for you to protect your hearing and your head when the drop ceiling lives up to it's name:





This sign needs to be on your door (OSHA standards) for all who enter:



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post #304 of 330 Old 12-15-2007, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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You tryin' to be funny, Dave?

I did some digging online and found a few interesting articles on the subject low frequency noise and/or "infrasound". Here is a section of particular interest from a paper titled "A Review of Published Research on Low Frequency Noise and its Effects":

Quote:


Hearing loss. High levels of A-weighted noise lead to damage to hearing. Do
high levels of low frequency noise, whose measured levels would be
depressed on an A-weighted measurement, have similar effects? This was one
of the early investigations in the American Space Programme (Mohr et al.,
1965). Mohr exposed subjects to single tones and narrow bands of noise in the
range 10-20Hz, at levels of 150-154dB for two minutes. There was no change
in hearing sensitivity as reported by the subjects and no measured temporary
threshold shift (TTS) at about one hour after exposure. In other work (Jerger et
al., 1966), subjects were exposed for 3 minutes to 7-12Hz at levels 119-144dB.
TTS of 20-25dB was found at high frequencies (3kHz to 6kHz), but recovery
was complete in a few hours. Nixon (Nixon, 1973) used a piston-phone
coupled to the subject’s ear via an earmuff to produce levels of 135dB at 18Hz.
Six five minute exposures were used with one to two minute rest periods
between. TTS was observed in one third of the subjects used, but this
recovered after about half an hour. Later work (Burdick et al., 1978) indicated
that there may be some permanent threshold shift (PTS) for long term high
level exposure. In one experiment, chinchilla were exposed for three days to
octave band noise at, 100dB, 110dB and 120dB centred on 63Hz. The highest
level led to PTS of up to 40dB at 2kHz in the chinchilla. When human subjects
were exposed to the same low frequency noise at 110dB and 120dB for four
hours, a TTS of about 15dB resulted, extending from low frequencies up to
2kHz. The frequency used by Burdick et al is higher than in the other
experiments and might be expected to have a greater effect. There is an
indication that long-term exposure to very high levels may cause permanent
hearing loss.

If subjects exposed to 150 dB SPL in the range of 10 to 20 Hz showed no signs of hearing loss (after an hour of recovery time), I'm not too worried about listening to 120 dB at 20Hz for very brief periods of time.

Here's a bit more from the same paper on page 25:

Quote:


Aural pain is produced by exposure to high levels of noise, occurring when the
displacement of the middle ear system exceeds its normal limits. Thresholds of
pain are given as rising from about 140dB at 30Hz to 165dB at 2Hz (von
Gierke and Nixon, 1976). However, there may be people with middle ear
problems whose pain threshold is lower than this.

It appears that low frequency noise will produce TTS in some subjects after
short exposure, but that the recovery is rapid and complete.
Work has not been
carried out on the effects of very long exposures to high levels of low frequency
noise. The levels experienced in exposure to environmental low frequency
noise are considerably lower than the levels used in the hearing loss
experiments described above.


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post #305 of 330 Old 12-15-2007, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a picture of the subs as they currently sit. This is also how they were oriented when I did that last REW graph. Much better overall response with them pushed into the corners. With the subs laid down under the screen, there was a HUGE dip around 43 Hz. But I'm not sure I will leave the subs there for long. They're too close to the left and right mains in my opinion, so I'm concerned there may be issues with reflections especially given the bipolar design of the Def Techs.



You may (or may not) haved noticed the dual center channel speakers. Of course I've already been told this is a HORRIBLE idea, that it would cause all manner of problems with phase and imaging, but I thought I'd go ahead and try it anyway. Can't say I've noticed much of a difference one way or the other. *shrug*

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post #306 of 330 Old 12-16-2007, 12:36 AM
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I have dual venter channels in both my 5.1 and my older pro logic setups. The center channel is extremely powerful and articulate in both systems. I feel that dual centers are by no means a detriment. I like the way the woofers are set up now. You really get the corner loading effect that way. Once they are finished, they will basically disappear into the corners and you could always dress the corner to basically hide them, and no one would know the difference. Looks great.

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post #307 of 330 Old 12-16-2007, 07:06 AM
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Thanks for the article Brad. I stand corrected.

Do you get annoying light reflection with the white drop ceiling?

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post #308 of 330 Old 12-16-2007, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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It does reflect light but I haven't found it very annoying. What's worse is how it rattles when the subs get moving. I may tear it down at some point and sheetrock it. The whole room needs LOTS of work. The way things are arranged right now is very temporary. The front row of seats and the subs are sitting on a 4" high subfloor which needs to come out because it is acting like a reverse riser. And I still need to build the riser for the rear row of 5 seats.

Well... at least I have something to do in my "spare time"!

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post #309 of 330 Old 12-16-2007, 10:35 AM
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I can't stop thinking about these "MAD" scientist who were cranking out 150db's!! There sure was some interesting research done in the 50's - late 70's?!?!

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post #310 of 330 Old 12-16-2007, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Dave... you'll love this!

Quote:


Johnson (1982) described an experiment he experienced himself. He listened to 172 dB / 4 Hz for less than 30 seconds by using an earcup. He felt no pain but a "massaging" of the tympanic membrane.

Is that NUTS or what? Here is perhaps my favorite part from the same article:

Quote:


Several investigations revealed subjective aural complaints. Karpova et al. (1970) reported on pressure in the ear after exposure to industrial infrasound (5, 10 Hz / 100, 135 dB) for 15 minutes. Slarve et al. (1975) described similar effects. Subjects told painless pressure in the ear during 8 minute exposure to 144 dB / 1 Hz - 20 Hz. A "sensation reflecting pressure build-up in the middle ear" occurred in the tests number 9, 10 and 11 of Mohr´s experiments (see above) during exposures without ear protection, whereas three of the five persons also described a "tympanic membran tickle sensation". Two of three subjects experienced middle ear pain during "brief" periods without ear protection exposed to narrow band noise, overall sound pressure levels 143 dB - 145 dB / maxima at 25 Hz - 40 Hz (tests 12, 13, 14).

So, the real question is... are we building subwoofers or tympanic membrane ticklers?!

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post #311 of 330 Old 12-16-2007, 02:50 PM
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There seriously needs to be a new term coined for these setups. Sub subwoofer sounds lame.

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post #312 of 330 Old 12-16-2007, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I think my next one's gonna have to do 172 dB at 4 Hz.

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post #313 of 330 Old 12-17-2007, 09:06 AM
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Man, how many Rlp-18 would you need?

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post #314 of 330 Old 12-17-2007, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't know... but 4 Hz isn't sound... it's WIND! I can just imagine the ear muffs that crazy scientist (Johnson) was wearing going FLAP, FLAP, FLAP just puffing air like mad to produce 172 dB at 4 Hz. Must be kind of like hooking your head up to a steam engine... minus the heat and the moisture of course.

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post #315 of 330 Old 12-24-2007, 10:44 AM
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Man, that just looks nuts Bradley. Well done! You will have many tinkering to go with them. Although Im sure they sound brilliant.

When are you planning on painting them? Is it still too wet up there to do any effective painting? I remember thinking my subs looked bad-ass when they were together but when they "went black" they took on a new found glory of bad-ass'd ness.

Another joins the basshead brotherhood.

Merry Christmas Bradley.

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post #316 of 330 Old 12-26-2007, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey, Scott... belated Merry Christmas to you and yours! I will probably get around to painting them some time in January after the holiday madness has died down. Of course I've been too "busy" enjoying the subs to worry about the paint. Last thing I watched was the recent HD DVD release of Blade Runner which had some decent LFE... more than I was expecting for an older film. They did a great job with the remaster. Good stuff.

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post #317 of 330 Old 12-26-2007, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitod View Post

I had 5" of snow in PA and my snow blower had a warning stating to use ear protection because at idle it's 109db!

So you're in Pocono, PA? I live near Seattle but right now I happen to be visiting someone in Wayne, PA (near Philly). Too bad it's so far to Erie, PA, or I'd be tempted to give Craigsub a call and ask if I can come over and see all his toys.

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post #318 of 330 Old 01-17-2008, 02:13 PM
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Maaannn. I love that last pic of the dualsters.

Have you come around to painting them yet or are you too busy having fun with them?

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #319 of 330 Old 01-17-2008, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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No, but I got that damn subfloor all ripped out! Here's a picture of when I first started.



I'll have to take another picture now that I got it all out. Nothing but bare concrete now. Still gotta decide what to lay down. Not a fan of carpet, but that would be better acoustically than laminate, etc.

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post #320 of 330 Old 01-17-2008, 05:05 PM
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Why did you rip out the subfloor?

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post #321 of 330 Old 01-17-2008, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Mainly because it was acting as a "reverse riser" for the front row of seats. A little more room floor to ceiling could also help in terms of the screen and subs or center channel speakers going below or above it. I think the previous owners installed the subfloor just to insulate the floor from the concrete slab. I didn't find anything scary underneath it.

Next tasks on the list (in addition to finishing off the floor) are painting the subs and building a riser for the rear row of 5 HT recliners.

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post #322 of 330 Old 01-17-2008, 09:30 PM
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btp,

Nice compact subs,Bob Carver may get ideas from these. You can be proud of these. You can see care was taken in the braces,often people botch up braces,your subs have pro quality bracing ! All openings rounded over,this is how I do all braces,rounded.

Looking again at all your pics, I almost started to have a bad cough. The MDF dust is nasty, I will go thru this in the next few days,your build has inspired me.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #323 of 330 Old 01-27-2008, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

btp,

Nice compact subs,Bob Carver may get ideas from these. You can be proud of these. You can see care was taken in the braces,often people botch up braces,your subs have pro quality bracing ! All openings rounded over,this is how I do all braces,rounded.

Looking again at all your pics, I almost started to have a bad cough. The MDF dust is nasty, I will go thru this in the next few days,your build has inspired me.

Thanks... but compact?! At 4 feet tall (standing on end), no one has ever referred to them as compact or small.

If I see that Bob Carver character hiding in the bushes outside of my house, I'll call the police!

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post #324 of 330 Old 01-27-2008, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Minor update:

I finally weighed one of the subs using two digital bathroom scales. Came in between 212 and 213 pounds. A bit less than I expected, but then I tried to be "judicious" with my use of MDF (trying to keep the interior volume as large as possible) and the design of the braces.

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post #325 of 330 Old 01-27-2008, 08:16 PM
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Digital bathroom scales rule,this is a space age method to find out just how much a sub weighs.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #326 of 330 Old 02-15-2009, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btp View Post

Let's be real about what?

Don't worry... I don't need a graph that says "120 dB" to reassure me the subs are working well and shaking the entire house.

Discussing measurement data or techniques in no way detracts from my enjoyment of the subs. Makes it more fun, actually, because the discussions and debates usually lead to greater knowledge and deeper understanding in the end.

Just want to say I've read and learned much for your thread, and many others here.
Love the DIY spirit and the sharing/collaboration that goes with it.

I've found once I started taking measurements for my IB sub, it helped tie all the books I've read into reality, still learning.
You read this and that acoustic/speaker book, but until you take measurements, think about what they mean, and experiment you are not really learning.
So, I am/was/are partially driven with a passion to learn. Plus maximizing my investment's output for listening pleasure.

Hard thing to do is "call it quits" with the graphs/tweaking and just enjoy the sound.
How long did it take you to "de-compress" from this build?
Or, the journey is never ending?
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post #327 of 330 Old 02-16-2009, 10:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow... first new post on this thread in over a year!

Oh, probably took a few months at least to decompress and stop obsessing over the details and whether or not the subs were performing exactly as they "should" and so on. After a while my focus tends to get turned to other things (some HT related and some not), so I guess that helps.

I'm pretty happy with the subs as they are now. The goal was ample output down into the low teens with enough headroom to not have to worry about bottoming out, and these subs do that very well. The only thing I might like to change would be the sheer SIZE of the cabinets. If I had the time and money that would probably manifest itself as a four-driver sealed configuration like Scott is doing.

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post #328 of 330 Old 02-17-2009, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btp View Post

Wow... first new post on this thread in over a year!

Oh, probably took a few months at least to decompress and stop obsessing over the details and whether or not the subs were performing exactly as they "should" and so on. After a while my focus tends to get turned to other things (some HT related and some not), so I guess that helps.

I'm pretty happy with the subs as they are now. The goal was ample output down into the low teens with enough headroom to not have to worry about bottoming out, and these subs do that very well. The only thing I might like to change would be the sheer SIZE of the cabinets. If I had the time and money that would probably manifest itself as a four-driver sealed configuration like Scott is doing.


I saw your build via your sig and checked it out, just goes to show be careful what you type in the web, it's there for the whole world to see over and over and over.....

Ok, I'll inform me wife just another 3-4 months for my IB sub "thing" as she calls it, possible by Memorial weekend, that I should be over obsessing about freq/EQ/db/nulls/peaks/measurements/charts/REW/etc/etc

They've gotten used to me being up Sat/Sunday 4am doing my tweaking "thing" until they wake up, then dad is red-eyed sometimes.

Did I mention Bass traps......
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post #329 of 330 Old 02-19-2009, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btp View Post

Deja vu? Actually, I'm using the saw horses this time which makes it easier to fit and adjust the clamps.












The interiors of these are so nice you should be using 3/4" plexi on 1 side to show off your router artistry.

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post #330 of 330 Old 02-19-2009, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Ok, I'll inform me wife just another 3-4 months for my IB sub "thing" as she calls it, possible by Memorial weekend, that I should be over obsessing about freq/EQ/db/nulls/peaks/measurements/charts/REW/etc/etc

They've gotten used to me being up Sat/Sunday 4am doing my tweaking "thing" until they wake up, then dad is red-eyed sometimes.

"Thing" is a fairly mild term for it. I usually say it's a DISEASE.

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