Four 18" Fi IB Woofer Build Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:04 PM
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NickTF,

It looks really good! Glad you completed it. Looks like it's going to take me another 4 months before I can start my ht room. Where you able to make a REW of your setup? I'm excited to see it.

Thanks,

Neil
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:40 PM
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I've been looking at IB for a few years now, but never pulled the trigger.
I spent all my time and money getting everything else just right: stadium seating, surround sound, projector, HD DVR, etc. and just kept my $150 powered sub doing what it could.

The current awesome selection of IB drivers means this is the time to do it. A year or so ago, the Parts Express 15" Dayton IB was still one of the best options.... no more.

I'm going to build exactly what you did, Nick. I've already contacted Fi for the 18"s and will probably get a Crown XS1200 to power them. $1300 + plus wood for a subwoofer that will kill ANY commercial sub (let's just be honest)?!?! No brainer.

Thanks for the awesome thread.

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Old 02-07-2008, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Glad you guys like, I definitely do, ha! I'm telling you for the money invested in this thing it's simply phenomenal and I can't imagine doing anything else, atleast with the very limited wood working skills that I have. I can't imagine trying to finish something and make it turn out decently so hiding my limited abilities is only one of the many posatives of this deal for me!

All considering a multi 18" IB Fi woofer setup I recommend it highly. You will spend a great deal of time treating your room though to eliminate all the rattles and things coloring the sound that never did before cause the air these things move!!!

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

NickTF,

It looks really good! Glad you completed it. Looks like it's going to take me another 4 months before I can start my ht room. Where you able to make a REW of your setup? I'm excited to see it.

Thanks,

Neil

I never ran a REW on it because of the SMS-1's on-screen graph. If you desire though I may be able to shoot the graph up on the projector and post it though. Let me know. Be patient man, you'll be happy you waited

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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Old 02-07-2008, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

What $199 ...under $800 for FOUR ! WOW This is dirt cheap. WOW

I contacted Fi Car Audio...me wants woofa. If I ever have internal bleeding you know the cause.

WOW

Fi Car Audio here I come....

These drivers are really only designed for IB use, they hard bottom at xmax, which makes them unsuitable for Ported. Sealed doesn't work due to the enclosure size needed. If you want, I'd go with the Q series

Are you gonna do an IB? If you were, I'd say get 8 or more of these and finally satisfy that bass itch once and for all.
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

These drivers are really only designed for IB use, they hard bottom at xmax, which makes them unsuitable for Ported. Sealed doesn't work due to the enclosure size needed. If you want, I'd go with the Q series

Are you gonna do an IB? If you were, I'd say get 8 or more of these and finally satisfy that bass itch once and for all.

My plx 3602 could not bottom these woofers when tested on my floor in stereo pair, that should be extracting everything or close to the plx 3602 has to throw out being these woofers are two ohm single coils. The clip lights were lighting up. I played music material with strong content damn close to 20hz and I heard no bottom clackidy clack noises. The amp was on one of the three 20 amp dedicated circuits I have for my equipment too. I'm sure that's way over the 600 watts at 20hz these require to be pushed to xmax at 20hz.

That being said scott has indicated these aren't for anything else then IB but then again who knows how they'd really work in a ported sealed setup until they try it.

8 of these in an IB, I'd like to hear that but only for a few seconds ha ha

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NickTF View Post

My plx 3602 could not bottom these woofers when tested on my floor in stereo pair, that should be extracting everything or close to the plx 3602 has to throw out being these woofers are two ohm single coils. The clip lights were lighting up. I played music material with strong content damn close to 20hz and I heard no bottom clackidy clack noises. The amp was on one of the three 20 amp dedicated circuits I have for my equipment too. I'm sure that's way over the 600 watts at 20hz these require to be pushed to xmax at 20hz.

That being said scott has indicated these aren't for anything else then IB but then again who knows how they'd really work in a ported sealed setup until they try it.

8 of these in an IB, I'd like to hear that but only for a few seconds ha ha

If I were going ported/sealed I'd go for the Q though like indicated unless Scott would say otherwise.

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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Old 02-08-2008, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

These drivers are really only designed for IB use, they hard bottom at xmax, which makes them unsuitable for Ported. Sealed doesn't work due to the enclosure size needed. If you want, I'd go with the Q series

Are you gonna do an IB? If you were, I'd say get 8 or more of these and finally satisfy that bass itch once and for all.

8!!! That would be 58L's of air displacement!!!! Yes they are only for IB which is why they are $200. What's wrong with that?

As for the hard bottom issue... I am trying to find the thread over at "The Cult" but Scott and the owner of Acoustic Elegance (AE) were talking about the diffences in their drivers. To make it short the owner of AE said that the Fi's bottom at xmax...Scott said that is not the case. Can never find anything when you need to??

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Old 02-08-2008, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Avus_M3 View Post

8!!! That would be 58L's of air displacement!!!! Yes they are only for IB which is why they are $200. What's wrong with that?

As for the hard bottom issue... I am trying to find the thread over at "The Cult" but Scott and the owner of Acoustic Elegance (AE) were talking about the diffences in their drivers. To make it short the owner of AE said that the Fi's bottom at xmax...Scott said that is not the case. Can never find anything when you need to??

These are hand built if I remember correctly and I understand from Scott's original thread's that they were at the very best supposed to be very close to bottoming at xmax. In fact I think his exact words were xmech is around xmax, or something close to that. Is it possible being these are hand built that some do and some don't bottom at xmax??? Bottm line is who cares if they do, get four or more of these at 30mm xmax one way and see how long you like them at level. Mine really never move and they produce prodigious amounts of sound, when they start to move they don't move much and the sound being generated at these limited movements is. And as far as eight of these goes I just can't imagine being able to use something like that in an IB configuration in anything other then a room which has been designed completely around these kind of sound pressures

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

These drivers..... they hard bottom at xmax,

That's incorrect.
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Thomas-W View Post

That's incorrect.

Do you recall the thread?

Maybe when you bought your subs Nick they were from the original batch of 30. IIRC he ordered 100 more to keep on stock...maybe they changed design slightly?

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----Check my QUAD 18" Fi IB Build Thread!! (DONE) King of the 400 lb Gorilla
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:30 AM
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I distinctly remember reading that, could you show me the xmech info? Maybe things have changed, either way, my point is that scott did not recommend them for anything but IB use.

Keep in mind who I was recommending those too, I wouldn't say that to pretty much anyone but aurthur, for most, a pair would do extremely well, 4 is over the top enough. All I was saying was that the Ficar Q's are the ones made for porting.
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:37 AM
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Here is what Fi Car said over at the shack

"Xmax is 30mm and suspension and motor limit right about at the same time.
At about 500-600 W it hits its linear limits at 20Hz. Power needs will vary accordingly."

For the 15"er he said that the suspension goes 2mm beyond what the motor does, 22mm xmax, 24mm xmag.
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avus_M3 View Post

Do you recall the thread?

Maybe when you bought your subs Nick they waere from the original batch of 30. IIRC he ordered 100 more to keep on stock...maybe they changed design slightly?

Yes Avus, they were from the original 30!

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:49 AM
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I only have the lowly IXL 18s. And there is no way that I could attempt to bottom those without structural damage to the house.

IB is very different from boxed subs. I know on here we have folks with some outrageous box designs that incorporate multiple large drivers. Great for them. I bet that if you try to bottom any four 18 inch design in a reasonable sized house, let alone a room, you will break something. Unless you are in a small sealed box where the backwave causes so much pressure you cannot get much output.

In the IB there is no pressure on the backwave or the frontwave. So all the energy from the front wave goes out into the room. And all the energy from the backwave goes into whatever separate volume the builder has chosen. Only at resonance is there anything appoaching that in a ported box sub. So when we IB owners say that the cones are barely moving to produce room shaking bass, we are not exagerating. It is something you have to experience. I think this is in part because if we feed the IB 10 hz we get 10 hz output, and of course all the rest too. I can measure some sound pressure below 10 hz as well but my room really is not big enough to get 5 hz rolling very well. When you sum up the output from low to crossover frequency the IB is transferring a lot of energy into the room. I have screwed around with big boxes and big drivers for a long time. It is easy to get 30 hz and above and get that punch in the chest. It is very difficult to get 8 hz and get that nausea in the stomach. I know that my IB gets that. Nick felt it when we were playing tones and I plugged in a low tone. His gills got a bit green.

So if you get a decent 18 in an IB I certainly would not worry about bottoming.

I couldn't even get close to bottoming a set of dual 15s with 20mm xmax. About the most those cones ever moved was 10mm.

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Old 02-08-2008, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HT Nut View Post

I only have the lowly IXL 18s. And there is no way that I could attempt to bottom those without structural damage to the house.

IB is very different from boxed subs. I know on here we have folks with some outrageous box designs that incorporate multiple large drivers. Great for them. I bet that if you try to bottom any four 18 inch design in a reasonable sized house, let alone a room, you will break something. Unless you are in a small sealed box where the backwave causes so much pressure you cannot get much output.

In the IB there is no pressure on the backwave or the frontwave. So all the energy from the front wave goes out into the room. And all the energy from the backwave goes into whatever separate volume the builder has chosen. Only at resonance is there anything appoaching that in a ported box sub. So when we IB owners say that the cones are barely moving to produce room shaking bass, we are not exagerating. It is something you have to experience. I think this is in part because if we feed the IB 10 hz we get 10 hz output, and of course all the rest too. I can measure some sound pressure below 10 hz as well but my room really is not big enough to get 5 hz rolling very well. When you sum up the output from low to crossover frequency the IB is transferring a lot of energy into the room. I have screwed around with big boxes and big drivers for a long time. It is easy to get 30 hz and above and get that punch in the chest. It is very difficult to get 8 hz and get that nausea in the stomach. I know that my IB gets that. Nick felt it when we were playing tones and I plugged in a low tone. His gills got a bit green.

So if you get a decent 18 in an IB I certainly would not worry about bottoming.

I couldn't even get close to bottoming a set of dual 15s with 20mm xmax. About the most those cones ever moved was 10mm.

That's a big part I think alot miss, that is the effeciency these things have at infrasonics as compared to a sealed setup. Sure they are not as effecient as a similar displacement ported enclosure but not many like the idea of having four 18" drivers in a HUUUUUUUUGE box in their room including myself.

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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Old 02-08-2008, 12:44 PM
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Well I am dead set on the Fi's and have been talking with Scott back and forth. I have been without bass for a long time now and have withdrawals. My ONLY hesitation right now is do I order 4 or do I order 6? I want nothing left to be desired. At the same time I don't want to blow out a wall or windows hehe.

My room is ~3300 - 3600 cubic ft with a huge opening in the rear (no wall) that opens to the kitchen, dining room, and back to the rest of the house. See pics below:

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----Check my QUAD 18" Fi IB Build Thread!! (DONE) King of the 400 lb Gorilla
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Old 02-08-2008, 12:44 PM
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View into living room:
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...70014029_7.jpg

View into living room 2:
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...70014029_4.jpg

View going out of living room:
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...70014029_8.jpg

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Old 02-08-2008, 12:46 PM
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Nick, how hard do you typically push your 4 18's? Any desire for additional drivers even if to push the each driver less, lower distortion, increase sensitivity, etc??

BTW: Not trying to threadjack Nick...just asking about your experience and what you would recommend. I don't know anyone else who has ran these in an IB yet. Build thread will start when I place my order.

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Old 02-08-2008, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avus_M3 View Post

Nick, how hard do you typically push your 4 18's? Any desire for additional drivers even if to push the each driver less, lower distortion, increase sensitivity, etc??

BTW: Not trying to threadjack Nick...just asking about your experience and what you would recommend. I don't know anyone else who has ran these in an IB yet. Build thread will start when I place my order.

In my room six would be an absolute waste of money and effort. Four is more then I need and more then my room in it's current shape can deal with and I have a new construction home 6 months old!!! Unless your room is way larger then mine spend the extra money and effort reinforcing walls and structures aiding to eliminate offending vibrating structures, fixtures, accessories, etc. Remember, i'm only giving them about 2500 watts because of the 2 ohm coils. That's my biggest gripe with the woofers, I wish they were single 4 ohm coils as four is probably the most popular number for these and just about all pro amps are 2 ohm stereo/4ohm bridged stable. Not really sure why scott selected 2 ohm. Probably to keep from producing too much SPL via more power

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:02 PM
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well I to have a similar room to yours and I just built a Rythmik DS1500 and it does well,... I had the boxes from a long time ago. I always wanted to do a IB set up. I have the room for 2 manifolds if needed. Its a Quad level home and I have 2 areas that are level with the garage floor. They would mount right at the mid panel of the Martin Logans One being over the coyotes head in the wall as that is the back of the garage, and the other on the right side same place.

You think 4 AE 15 in a twin manifold or 2 FI l18 would be better. The room is 23 x 16 with a stair way leading up the back to the kitchen. its all wood flooring with concrete walls under the wood raised panels.
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by C.A.P View Post

well I to have a similar room to yours and I just built a Rythmik DS1500 and it does well,... I had the boxes from a long time ago. I always wanted to do a IB set up. I have the room for 2 manifolds if needed. Its a Quad level home and I have 2 areas that are level with the garage floor. They would mount right at the mid panel of the Martin Logans One being over the coyotes head in the wall as that is the back of the garage, and the other on the right side same place.

You think 4 AE 15 in a twin manifold or 2 FI l18 would be better. The room is 23 x 16 with a stair way leading up the back to the kitchen. its all wood flooring with concrete walls under the wood raised panels.

Four 15s would have the edge in the higher bass frequencies but I think the IB 18s would be very close in the lower ranges when comparing two 18s to four 15s. The 30mm xmax is what gives them that advantage I think. Not sure what displacement is off the top of my head in the 15" AE woofers?

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:14 PM
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Nick, how big is your room??

-The Dave
----Check my QUAD 18" Fi IB Build Thread!! (DONE) King of the 400 lb Gorilla
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Avus_M3 View Post

Nick, how big is your room??

It's tricky because it opens up about half way through. 23' long x 12'1" wide with a vaulted ceiling starting at 8' going to 10'. The wall on the right when facing the screen wall is only 8' long though and then it opens up into the entire kitchen, dining, foyer area of the house. Let me see if I still have my home plan on my photobucket page.

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Doesn't give you the dimensions of the entire open area but gives you a ruff idea. Disregard the sub placement options, I created this when I was considering using the garage/living room common wall for IB placement.


29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:42 PM
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True true...I guess 6 would just be bragging rights with 43.5L of displacement. I should use that $$ for an EQ.

-The Dave
----Check my QUAD 18" Fi IB Build Thread!! (DONE) King of the 400 lb Gorilla
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Avus_M3 View Post

True true...I guess 6 would just be bragging rights with 43.5L of displacement. I should use that $$ for an EQ.

Definately a wise investment!!! EQ made a big difference in "slam frequencies" and in revealing infrasonics!!! I had a big peak at the 30-40hz area.

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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Old 02-08-2008, 02:04 PM
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The big question is what to get and where? So much to do...

-The Dave
----Check my QUAD 18" Fi IB Build Thread!! (DONE) King of the 400 lb Gorilla
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Old 02-08-2008, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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The big question is what to get and where? So much to do...

Well I love my SMS-1 and they can be had for around $450 on ebay from time to time. Lots of other alternatives too! You've got your homework cut out for you but that's half the fun!!!

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Old 02-08-2008, 09:27 PM
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The big question is what to get and where? So much to do...

What to get

4 18 inch Fi IB drivers
1 EQ solution such as Nicks SMS-1, my Rane PE17's or a Behrninger FBD
1 Amplifier, and there are lots of choices.

Check out the Nady XA900 on musicians friend. I use that for four IXL 18's and it doesn't even breathe hard. There is the Behringer amp, and Crown, and QSC, and I like the Tapco Juice series. Picked up two of those on eBay. 1400 watts each and they are very happy with two ohms per side. If you have four of the Fi 18s, I might be willing to part with the Tapcos. You could feed each Fi with 700 watts of heart stopping woofage.

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