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Stealthlude's Avatar Stealthlude
01:07 AM Liked: 10
post #1 of 126
12-21-2007 | Posts: 966
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I was just wondering is anyone around here has used their new LMS-Ultra drivers yet?

Expencive but they seem very tempting. I also read some threads on people rather using multiple smallers drivers in an array.

I just wanted to ask if you guys rather have TWO 15" TC2000 drivers (maybe with passive raidators) or a single LMS 18" sealed.

I know the TC3000 is more in tune with something like the LMS series but I already have (2) TC2000 15"s.
Looneybomber's Avatar Looneybomber
06:49 AM Liked: 23
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If all depends on how much room you have available. If you're tight on space (but not on money) and can only afford to lose real estate to one small'ish sub, a single 18" LMS would probably be your best bet. IF, however, you have room and have a very laxed WAF, dual TC2k's in large ported enclosures is a mighty fine setup.

And the TC3k is not in tune with the LMS. TC3k is more of an SPL oriented driver and the LMS is good at both, producing far less distortion...but you have to pay for it.
geoffstgermaine's Avatar geoffstgermaine
07:14 AM Liked: 11
post #3 of 126
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I pretty much agree with everything Looneybomber said. If you want a single smaller enclosure and are willing to pay the difference then the LMS-Ultra is a good choice for a very high quality solution. Ilkka's tests at HT Shack have shown that the LMS technology is amazing at reducing distortion. I'll be interested to see what the street price of the LMS-Ultra 18 is relative to the $1999 MSRP.
jpmst3's Avatar jpmst3
07:38 AM Liked: 224
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From what I remember, the new LMS has just been slightly tweaked for power handling and the like. It is 95% the same as the old LMS of which many of us have used/are using.
armystud0911's Avatar armystud0911
08:28 AM Liked: 14
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The TC-2000 is a more linear driver with lower distortion than the TC-3000. The TC3000 is all about getting the most powerful motor and the longest stroke/highest power handling for the cheapest amount of money (not that its a cheap driver). The LMS is all about quality and low distortion while being the biggest baddest beast of a sub ever. A pair of TC2000's would compete quite favorably against an LMS, and now, considering the price of an LMS is now over double what it used to be, I wouldn't even bother yourself by thinking about it.
Looneybomber's Avatar Looneybomber
08:49 AM Liked: 23
post #6 of 126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffstgermaine View Post

I'll be interested to see what the street price of the LMS-Ultra 18 is relative to the $1999 MSRP.

I read somewhere, TC was selling them from their site at 1300.00. I can't prove it though.
jpmst3's Avatar jpmst3
08:52 AM Liked: 224
post #7 of 126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

I read somewhere, TC was selling them from their site at 1300.00. I can't prove it though.

The last I had heard it was $1500, so that is a small improvement if true.
armystud0911's Avatar armystud0911
08:54 AM Liked: 14
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Well, their site has them listed at $1999, that is the figure I was referring to, $1300 isn't so bad though.
jpmst3's Avatar jpmst3
08:56 AM Liked: 224
post #9 of 126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Well, their site has them listed at $1999, that is the figure I was referring to, $1300 isn't so bad though.

Hell, a brand new one went for < $900 a couple of weeks ago on ebay.
Looneybomber's Avatar Looneybomber
09:11 AM Liked: 23
post #10 of 126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Hell, a brand new one went for < $900 a couple of weeks ago on ebay.

I thought that was a 15" though. Could be wrong.
jpmst3's Avatar jpmst3
09:17 AM Liked: 224
post #11 of 126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

I thought that was a 15" though. Could be wrong.

Nope, I believe it was an 18.. There is a thread about it here somewhere. We remarked about what a good deal someone got.
Stealthlude's Avatar Stealthlude
01:24 PM Liked: 10
post #12 of 126
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Very interesting.

I guess I should be taking space constraints into the equation.

I do have some minor space constrains but nothing that cant be solved by a little brain power and some wood working skills (i.e. turning the enclosure into an end table or coffee table)

The reason for the LMS was more or less just to own and try one of their flagship drivers, but fact it saves space for me was just a +

The TC3000 right now takes up VERY little space, and when people see it, they don’t believe that “big sound” comes from that “small box”.

I’ve been told before my TC2000s in a ported array or LLT would sound great compared to an LMS 18”, but what about my Dual TC2000s in a SEALED BOX?

I was thinking of building my TC2000 15”s into a sealed array and maybe use passive radiators since it’s a new technology to me I am really itching to try.
geoffstgermaine's Avatar geoffstgermaine
03:43 PM Liked: 11
post #13 of 126
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Are you trying to compare the sealed TC2000 to a sealed or ported LMS 18?
armystud0911's Avatar armystud0911
04:40 PM Liked: 14
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the TC2000's would prolly be pretty close to a single LMS5400, however, I think the LMS would stay linear longer. Heres how they stack up

Max displacement

2x TC2000= 13.9L
1x LMS5400= 10.5L

Max displacement Xmax

2x TC2000's = 9.5L
1x LMS5400 = 9.0L

Max displacement 1% total bl deviation (according to audiopulses website)

2x TC2000 = 6.0L
1x LMS5400 = 7.2L

Of course this doesn't tell the whole story, but in general, if you aren't going to pr the LMS, you can expect pretty similar output and SQ results, I doubt most discerning listeners could tell a difference if the Q of both alignments were similar.
Willd's Avatar Willd
04:57 PM Liked: 10
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Quote:


I doubt most discerning listeners could tell a difference if the Q of both alignments were similar.

Maybe, maybe not. Ilkka's tests of the 5400 make me think otherwise though.
armystud0911's Avatar armystud0911
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I don't even think I have seen those, I saw his tests with the PR's but I can't find anything about the LMS over there anymore, its not on his indexes and google turns up nothing.
I was kinda disappointed that he put the pair of TC2000's in 140L enclosure, a larger box may show some different results. Due to enclosure/driver placement, he only gained 3.5dB by doing a pair of TC2000's.
jpmst3's Avatar jpmst3
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Army, is this the thread you were referring to?
armystud0911's Avatar armystud0911
05:58 PM Liked: 14
post #18 of 126
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yeah thats it, something seems odd there, a pair of TC 2000's is 5dB down from a single F113?
jpmst3's Avatar jpmst3
06:04 PM Liked: 224
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Ya, I dunno about that one.
armystud0911's Avatar armystud0911
06:19 PM Liked: 14
post #20 of 126
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I know paper doesn't show everything, but seriously, a TC2k and an F113 have pretty much the same displacement with a nod to the TC2k, how is it that a PAIR of them are down 5dB from a single F113? Yeah the F113 is high quality and all but really now, the TC2k is very well built as well, 10" spiders, a vc that can handle incredible loads, a fairly linear motor and all that robust construction should count for something
Looneybomber's Avatar Looneybomber
08:39 PM Liked: 23
post #21 of 126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

all that robust construction should count for something

What amp was he using?
geoffstgermaine's Avatar geoffstgermaine
08:49 PM Liked: 11
post #22 of 126
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On which measurement is the dual TC2K down 5 dB from the F113?
Willd's Avatar Willd
09:19 PM Liked: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

I don't even think I have seen those, I saw his tests with the PR's but I can't find anything about the LMS over there anymore, its not on his indexes and google turns up nothing.

Well he hasn't posted the individual reports yet on his most recent set of tests, but he had posted a small test comparing the TC-2000, SDX-15, and 5400 by themselves that was interesting.

Quote:
yeah thats it, something seems odd there, a pair of TC 2000's is 5dB down from a single F113?

There were some issues with the TC-2000 tests done last spring. Since then Ilkka has upped the amplification greatly (CE-4000) and he's received the new tall roll surround top assemblies for the TC-2000s (one of the pair had a manuf. defect). He told me he may or may not retest the TC-2000s. But at any rate, the sealed TC-2000 results aren't exactly comparable to the F113 results.

But to simplifiy it, Ilkka has stated that the TC-2000 is capable of more clean output than the SDX-15, especially down low where the TC-2000 has dual 10" spiders compared to the single spider on the SDX-15 (which is 8.5" I believe?)? And look at how the single SDX-15/CE-4000 sub compared to the F113 in the last round of tests.

Edit: I found the free air inidvidual driver tests that Ilkka performed.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...1-post116.html
armystud0911's Avatar armystud0911
01:16 AM Liked: 14
post #24 of 126
12-22-2007 | Posts: 4,423
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So.....does this mean we can trust his TC-2000 vs LMS testing?
Willd's Avatar Willd
01:44 AM Liked: 10
post #25 of 126
12-22-2007 | Posts: 5,647
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Eh?
Stealthlude's Avatar Stealthlude
03:15 AM Liked: 10
post #26 of 126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffstgermaine View Post

Are you trying to compare the sealed TC2000 to a sealed or ported LMS 18?

No, I am trying to compare Sealed to Sealed.

From what I understand the TC3000 and LMS series dont shine in ported boxes. I also understand the TC2000 shine IN PORTED boxes.

That why I asked if the TC2000 would also be well suited for a sealed alignment.

I like and prefer sealed subs, so I wanted to know if I can use and if the TC2000 will peform WELL in a sealed box (not just will it work, but will it shine) I dont want to go LLT, I dont have to space to do it, and like sealed more.
Willd's Avatar Willd
12:58 PM Liked: 10
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12-22-2007 | Posts: 5,647
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Yes the TC-2000 will perform well in a sealed enclosure.
Stealthlude's Avatar Stealthlude
04:58 PM Liked: 10
post #28 of 126
12-22-2007 | Posts: 966
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Willd,

You are always a great help, thanks. I think I am going to start designing my dual 15" TC2000 alignment after the holidays. I already have my XS1200 to power them, and to help add LFE in the really low end I am going to compliment my HT system with some Clark Synthesis bass shakers / transducers.

Has anyone has any experience with the Clark Synthesis stuff? Silver vs Gold vs Platinum series? I have a spare Crown 402D laying around and plan on using that along with the DCX2496 crossover. I might need anywhere beteween 2 to 4 of them. I am going to start with 2 to keep the cost down.
Willd's Avatar Willd
07:37 PM Liked: 10
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12-22-2007 | Posts: 5,647
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You're welcome. I meant to tell you, I just had a similar experience with my XS900 to your experience with the XS1200. I watched Live Free or Die Hard last night and the clip lights came flickered far too much. I think I know why though....the voltage on my LFE output isn't nearly enough for the XS. My XR55 has a 200mV output IIRC while the XS needs 1.4V for full power output.

On one scene (the tunnel scene with the car crashes) it actually hard clipped and I heard a loud noise. For a second I thought I bottomed the driver, but then I realized that wasn't the case. So for the record, serious clipping with the XS can definitely sound like a clank.

So basically I've have to either get a Cleanbox and mod it, or wait for Chuck's RCA-XLR-Highpass device to be finished.
Richard Mayer's Avatar Richard Mayer
09:25 PM Liked: 10
post #30 of 126
12-22-2007 | Posts: 863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

You're welcome. I meant to tell you, I just had a similar experience with my XS900 to your experience with the XS1200. I watched Live Free or Die Hard last night and the clip lights came flickered far too much. I think I know why though....the voltage on my LFE output isn't nearly enough for the XS. My XR55 has a 200mV output IIRC while the XS needs 1.4V for full power output.

That doesn't make any sense. The clip lights do not care about the input signal, they are about output only. If they lit, it means that the amp is already delivering full power.

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