The Dave's Quad 18" Fi IB Build Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 178 Old 04-06-2008, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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After getting settled, eating dinner, etc me and my wife look to see what we had from Netflix. We had the Simpsons movie, Big Love season 2, and Hot Rod. We pop in Hot Rod. I wasn't even going to turn on the sub because I figured what's the point with a movie like this? Actually, the sub sounded very realistic and really made the movie a lot "fuller" sounding. Little things like Adam ?Samberg? slamming the front door shut on his brother, the motorcycle, ect all sounded much more realistic.

The subs do blend very nicely with the mains. I still have to figure the appropriate way to set this up with the bass management on my receiver. There is a setting called bass peak level that goes from -80 to +12db. It is supposed to limit weaker subs to prevent them from going above their capabilities. Should I set this to 0db or +12db as to not limit the sub? This is NOT bass level but the peak level so I would imagine this wouldn't be running the subs hot. It would just allow the subs on big transients or peaks to do what they do best right?

As for the bass level should I run that at 0db and adjust at the amp so I have some amp headroom or run the amp all the way up and adjust at the receiver? I typically listen to movies anywhere from -18db depending on the level of the movie up to -10db for the most part. The mains are capable of some high output.

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post #92 of 178 Old 04-06-2008, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's some pics of the setup (temporary). For size reference, the plasma is 60" (Pio 6010).

Taped up to cut





Me cutting


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post #93 of 178 Old 04-06-2008, 01:35 PM
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Quote:


As for the bass level should I run that at 0db and adjust at the amp so I have some amp headroom or run the amp all the way up and adjust at the receiver?

Typically, one sets the amp to max and adjusts the receiver. Just because the attenuation knob on the amp is at max doesn't mean 'you have no headroom' in the amp. It just means it isn't attenuating the incoming signal at all. I have my amp at full but my receiver's LFE level is at 5 on a 0-20 scale.
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post #94 of 178 Old 04-06-2008, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Pushing the beast in (more like sincerely begging it to fit in between the studs)





Installed





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post #95 of 178 Old 04-06-2008, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Once the proper wire is ran in wall and the cover is finished up I will clean up the area and take some proper shots for the gallery

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post #96 of 178 Old 04-06-2008, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Once the proper wire is ran and cover fabbed up I will take some proper shots for the gallery

I will include graphs either tonight or tomorrow. They sound very realistic! For movies it adds a great deal of realism :P . For music I might dial them a little punchier...we will see.

I honestly haven't had enough time to play with them yet. I can say this...even when it was pounding pretty good it seems like these beast are barely moving!! I need mo' powwa!!! Eh...EQ first hehe.

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post #97 of 178 Old 04-07-2008, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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So I am screwing around with REW learning the program. I am having volume disparity with using the tone on the receiver to set 75db and the volume on REW. First couple attempts using 512K sweeps of my subs.


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post #98 of 178 Old 04-07-2008, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avus_M3 View Post

I am having volume disparity with using the tone on the receiver to set 75db and the volume on REW.

Not sure I understand what you mean by volume disparity. Which receiver do you and where is the gain set at on your receiver? As you may know, many receivers display the volume in terms of attenuation in "negative dB", so as you turn the volume up it gets closer to 0 dB or "reference" level.

On a side note, is the interface between the subwoofer manifold and the wall air tight? Is the attic space also sealed? Just curious. I'm not expert in IB installs by any means!

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post #99 of 178 Old 04-08-2008, 10:54 AM
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Yikes! That FR is bringing back bad memories of my own at home.

Jk, Dave. The extension looks pretty good. Is this measurement with zero EQ work done? Well, hehe...I would think so. Obviously you knew going in that with an IB system there is no moving it around to get better FR. Just moving where you sit and Ive seen your living room so I think the layout is staying as is. Will just have to EQ out the peak in the upper 30's and do what you can about the trough in the 40-60 region. Honestly, Im still dealing with the exact same problems in my own system. I moved my subs around a bit so now both the woofers are pointed in the middle of the room directly behind the tv. (I so need a front projection system) Anyway...I haven't come around to re-REW'ing how or if that changed anything regarding the FR. For you, I would try reversing the polarity and see what changes. Sometimes it will be better. In my room reversing it made the dips worse so I keep them at normal. Yup.

Put some more listening time into them, see how they sound after a week. Then try out some EQ if you have the patience. REW helps a TON.

If you dont have a copy already, go pick up War of the Worlds. Can get it cheap off Amazon. Its a worthy bass demo to own, for sure. The DTS version of the Haunting is a must own as well. Titan A.E. is a good choice too. There are other good bass movies out there. Lots, actually. Would try something other than LOTR for a bit, though. I found them all to have nice, but sometimes boomy or "bassy" (if that makes sense at all) low end thats more for show.


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post #100 of 178 Old 04-08-2008, 11:19 AM
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Get yourself an EQ and go to work! You will find music is alot more enjoyable but it depends on what you listen to. I like the SMS-1 cause I can change between presets instantly if I like with some music sounding better to me in the unfiltered setting and some sounding better when I dial up the 50-80hz area! It's dependant on the source to me (regardless of flat this or flat that).

Remember, the cones don't move on anything except the lowest notes. Mine move a ton if I get stupid with ultra low frequency content material but it usually is too much for my liking or too much for my home's liking at that point! But at the same time when playing material with lots of output in the 50-80hz area of the system they hardly move at all, but are vibrating my chest with impact!

What kind of power are you pushing again AVUS? I'm working with 2500 rated watts from my plx3602.

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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post #101 of 178 Old 04-08-2008, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btp View Post

Not sure I understand what you mean by volume disparity. Which receiver do you and where is the gain set at on your receiver? As you may know, many receivers display the volume in terms of attenuation in "negative dB", so as you turn the volume up it gets closer to 0 dB or "reference" level.

On a side note, is the interface between the subwoofer manifold and the wall air tight? Is the attic space also sealed? Just curious. I'm not expert in IB installs by any means!

Yes I know how receivers work on volume. Thanks for making me feel stupid. What I am talking about is using the tone on the receiver setting 75db and using the tone on REW setting 75db (different receiver volumes to get at 75db tone).

As for the sub, I have not secured the sub yet (although it is dang tight) and since I haven't physically secured it completely I have not run some caulk around it yet so there is a *small* amount of air I can feel when putting my face next to the manifold on the living room side. That is my next task.


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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yikes! That FR is bringing back bad memories of my own at home.

Jk, Dave. The extension looks pretty good. Is this measurement with zero EQ work done? Well, hehe...I would think so. Obviously you knew going in that with an IB system there is no moving it around to get better FR. Just moving where you sit and Ive seen your living room so I think the layout is staying as is. Will just have to EQ out the peak in the upper 30's and do what you can about the trough in the 40-60 region. Honestly, Im still dealing with the exact same problems in my own system. I moved my subs around a bit so now both the woofers are pointed in the middle of the room directly behind the tv. (I so need a front projection system) Anyway...I haven't come around to re-REW'ing how or if that changed anything regarding the FR. For you, I would try reversing the polarity and see what changes. Sometimes it will be better. In my room reversing it made the dips worse so I keep them at normal. Yup.

Put some more listening time into them, see how they sound after a week. Then try out some EQ if you have the patience. REW helps a TON.

If you dont have a copy already, go pick up War of the Worlds. Can get it cheap off Amazon. Its a worthy bass demo to own, for sure. The DTS version of the Haunting is a must own as well. Titan A.E. is a good choice too. There are other good bass movies out there. Lots, actually. Would try something other than LOTR for a bit, though. I found them all to have nice, but sometimes boomy or "bassy" (if that makes sense at all) low end thats more for show.

They are loosening up a good amount which is good. Someone else said check the polarity as well. I don't see how I could have got the phase wrong? I bridged the amp ch1 + to the poistive of the first sub, then that subs - to the subs above it's +. The - from that top sub to the other sides top subs +, the - of that subs to the + of the bottom sub, from the bottom subs negative to the ch2 + on the amp. I can try reversing the channel hook ups on the amp? Besides that initial listen the boominess has subsided.

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post #102 of 178 Old 04-08-2008, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickTF View Post

Get yourself an EQ and go to work! You will find music is alot more enjoyable but it depends on what you listen to. I like the SMS-1 cause I can change between presets instantly if I like with some music sounding better to me in the unfiltered setting and some sounding better when I dial up the 50-80hz area! It's dependant on the source to me (regardless of flat this or flat that).

Remember, the cones don't move on anything except the lowest notes. Mine move a ton if I get stupid with ultra low frequency content material but it usually is too much for my liking or too much for my home's liking at that point! But at the same time when playing material with lots of output in the 50-80hz area of the system they hardly move at all, but are vibrating my chest with impact!

What kind of power are you pushing again AVUS? I'm working with 2500 rated watts from my plx3602.

I will look into an EQ...just no funds right now. I am using a Crown CE4000 pushing a solid 2400wrms.

Here is a my wiring diagram (mad paint skills):


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post #103 of 178 Old 04-08-2008, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I did play around with REW a little more and got some better readings. I set the SPL meter to medium instead of low. This changed the graph a lot but changed the level settings which I took care of. I double checked the distance and level settings in the receiver and REW. I also set the sweep to 512k. I also changed the distance from 13.5 ft to 15 ft. It seemed to shift the dip a Slight way right.

Here is the graph. Also, do I need to use the smooth function at all? I just post non-smoothed.

EDIT: I forgot to mention I opened the door in the attic area (finished to non-finished space) so there was more volume and for testing raised the XO to 150hz.


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post #104 of 178 Old 04-09-2008, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I switched the amp outputs to reverse the polarity...no go. It was hooked up right. I also tested with the door in the attic both open and closed...no real difference.

Things are looking a lot better though as you can tell from the latest graph I posted besides that real nasty notch around 90 - 95hz. It is not a x-over issue because in the second graph I raised the x-over to 150hz instead of 80hz (just for testing) and also killed the mains.

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post #105 of 178 Old 04-09-2008, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avus_M3 View Post

Yes I know how receivers work on volume. Thanks for making me feel stupid. What I am talking about is using the tone on the receiver setting 75db and using the tone on REW setting 75db (different receiver volumes to get at 75db tone).

Sorry, that wasn't my intention at all. I just didn't understand what you meant by "75 dB tone" and was trying to clarify/ask where the gain settings were, etc.

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post #106 of 178 Old 04-09-2008, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by btp View Post

Sorry, that wasn't my intention at all. I just didn't understand what you meant by "75 dB tone" and was trying to clarify/ask where the gain settings were, etc.

No problem. I knew you meant well .

I think I can get a pretty good natural response if I can just find/tame that damn null .

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post #107 of 178 Old 04-09-2008, 01:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avus_M3 View Post

I think I can get a pretty good natural response if I can just find/tame that damn null

Bass traps would be helpful in this area.

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post #108 of 178 Old 04-09-2008, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Bass traps would be helpful in this area.

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I wonder if it's a reflection from the ceiling down since I have vaulted ceilings?



Here's with the polarity reversed:





Here's the difference from using smoothing:

No Smoothing (as I have been posting)





Post 1/3 Smoothing


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post #109 of 178 Old 04-09-2008, 01:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Avus_M3 View Post

I wonder if it's a reflection from the ceiling down since I have vaulted ceilings?

That might explain the major depression in the 90-100 hz region. However it might not.

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post #110 of 178 Old 04-09-2008, 04:52 PM
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The freq response can be corrected the easy way.

The huge dip at 95Hz should be a non issue,as nay mains can(should) handle 60Hz down.

The rest of the subwoofer range is easy to correct,the 30-40Hz peak ,being a peak you do not stress by substractinng here. The 45 to ~64Hz ineeds only slight boost and the 16-22Hz again...a slight boost.

All should be good after fine tuning.Each room has its little gremlins,the huge dip around 95Hz...who uses an IB sub or any sub this high? IMO cutting to mains is done 50-80Hz and here you leave the issue in the proverbial dust.

With mains placement you can fine tune further upper bass.The worst cases are nasty dips in the 560Hz down range.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #111 of 178 Old 04-09-2008, 05:22 PM
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The huge dip at 95Hz should be a non issue,as nay mains can(should) handle 60Hz down.

It would def be a non-issue if it weren't for the fact that the LFE xover isn't a brick wall. If one crossed over at 80Hz, they wouldn't want a big dip just above that.
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post #112 of 178 Old 04-09-2008, 05:29 PM
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That is an issue, except remember, even with an 80Hz crossover, the mains are doing most of the work, the sub is down quite a bit and the combined FR would make a negligible null in the overall system response if the mains were out of it (they may or may not be, I don't know) the bigger issues is that the LFE channel carries content up to 120Hz and that information will be quite messed up unless you are using a low pass on your sub.
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post #113 of 178 Old 04-09-2008, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

It would def be a non-issue if it weren't for the fact that the LFE xover isn't a brick wall. If one crossed over at 80Hz, they wouldn't want a big dip just above that.

Then you cross over to the mains at 60 or 70Hz,its is not a major issue.

If the crossover was set at fixed high point and the dip was below or too close ,then it would be.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #114 of 178 Old 04-10-2008, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

The freq response can be corrected the easy way.

The huge dip at 95Hz should be a non issue,as nay mains can(should) handle 60Hz down.

The rest of the subwoofer range is easy to correct,the 30-40Hz peak ,being a peak you do not stress by substractinng here. The 45 to ~64Hz ineeds only slight boost and the 16-22Hz again...a slight boost.

All should be good after fine tuning.Each room has its little gremlins,the huge dip around 95Hz...who uses an IB sub or any sub this high? IMO cutting to mains is done 50-80Hz and here you leave the issue in the proverbial dust.

With mains placement you can fine tune further upper bass.The worst cases are nasty dips in the 560Hz down range.

My mains are very capable of going down to 60 hz. Read page 4 of the link I provided on my system: http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/148/ (if you don't feel like scouring the previous post).

As for the IB running that high it won't, it will be crossed at 80hz (lowest my receiver will go) but I know they are still in play around there.


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It would def be a non-issue if it weren't for the fact that the LFE xover isn't a brick wall. If one crossed over at 80Hz, they wouldn't want a big dip just above that.

Exactly what I was thinking.


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Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

That is an issue, except remember, even with an 80Hz crossover, the mains are doing most of the work, the sub is down quite a bit and the combined FR would make a negligible null in the overall system response if the mains were out of it (they may or may not be, I don't know) the bigger issues is that the LFE channel carries content up to 120Hz and that information will be quite messed up unless you are using a low pass on your sub.

Does the process work in reverse? Does the LFE get rerouted to the mains above 80hz or is it simply thrown away? I would imagine that it is most likely receiver dependant. Any good demo or source to test this with high freq lfe content?

BTW I should be receiving the new BluRay version of Digital Video Essentials whenever Amazon gets around to shipping it . I need to call them!


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Then you cross over to the mains at 60 or 70Hz,its is not a major issue.

If the crossover was set at fixed high point and the dip was below or too close ,then it would be.

My receiver allows me to select 80, 100, or 150hz x-over. Otherwise I would cross them at 60hz. The mains handle bass pretty damn good.

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post #115 of 178 Old 04-10-2008, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I got a little time to do some more tweaking. I tested different settings for integrating the mains with the IB. It looks like actually setting the mains to Large and the sub to Plus works best. I would like a little protection for the mains to run as small though. All graphs were taken with the amp on the towers set to 4 out of 10.


Mains (Large) by themselves from 15hz - 20khz


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post #116 of 178 Old 04-10-2008, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Mains (Small) and Sub On





Mains (Large) and Sub On





Mains (Large) and Sub Plus


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post #117 of 178 Old 04-10-2008, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are some higher level sweeps. The sub and system still has more in it and I know this but I am just cautious so I don't cause any damage or blow anything. I want to let everything break in nicely.

This was at 0db (reference) IIRC?? Might have been +3db? I will run some higher stuff later.





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post #118 of 178 Old 04-10-2008, 10:40 PM
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Almost 120 db at 5 hz. Cool.

 

 

Welcome my son, welcome to the machine....Must it be? It must be!

 


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post #119 of 178 Old 04-11-2008, 01:22 AM
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Aww, come on, whats happening at 3Hz? 1Hz? DC?

I love the high level sweeps
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post #120 of 178 Old 04-11-2008, 05:33 AM
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looks like your mains and your sub are having a bit of cancellation at the lower teens. I would leave it as Mains (Large) and SUbs Plus, as this is giving you the most natural FR. Use the DEQ to bring down the hump in the mid bass 20-50hz, and you outta be in good shape.

looking good.


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