I need some advice about buying a CRT Projector - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 41 Old 11-20-2008, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi all.

I'm strongly decided on a CRT projector. After doing my research, I know that my room can properly hold a 120" screen, and I know that light can be completely removed from said room.

I am strongly set on 1080p. Mostly because it is the strongest standard right now, and if not 1080p, and the ridiculous life of these CRT projectors, I might as well get a digital projector (lighter, smaller, and 720p/1080i).. These are my basic reasons for it.

I also consider it a big deal how these are more along the lines of industrial quality and modular, and this STRONGLY puts me towards CRT projectors.

I was looking at the Marque 8500, and the NEC XG 1351 LCs for sale on Curtpalmes site, but according to his guide, they can handle 1080p alright, just not AMAZINGLY, and possibly even softly. I do not want to plan to get something like this, and then have complaints afterwards after I spent a good deal of money on one.

So I come here, to ask your opinions, thoughts, and other details... What projector should I get? Would I be good with a NEC XG 1351 LC... is there a similar alternative that will do this better?

I must also mention that a while back (few months ago) I was asking questions about the Marque 8500, but now that I have the money to spend, I have doubts in my mind that need quelling so to speak.

I appreaciate all input, and thank you ahead of time for putting in the time to respond to my questions..

- undeclared
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post #2 of 41 Old 11-20-2008, 08:26 PM
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Well...Welcome Undeclared...

If cost is no object and you have your mind set on a mind blowing picture...then you need to look along the line of the 909's and 9500 ultras...just to name few...

Before I write what I m gonna write I want you all to be clear on this one!
Curt and some of the others on this forum have seen the true potential of a WELL set up CRT PICTURE IS!!!

So when they say something in the line of what the guide says....they are most likely referring to unmodified/not too well set up....basically something for the everyday joe!

I could be wrong on this...

There is so much to consider other than the display device itself...
examples are:

What is your source gonna be...
Are you gonna use a video processor or not...
how far you gonna sit...
are you gonna have it stet up by someone that actually knows what they are doing?
Screen size and material!
Are you going for size only or where the "sweetspot" of your pj is?

Plus a lot more...

Sure a bulb machine will trough a picture....and it will do it after a 2 minutes setup...
...but, chances are a lot of the people have not seem a well setup properly calibrated picture!

Once you see that...your addiction to these 250 pound monsters has started!

My advice would be for you to find someone that knows what they are talking about and then then go check out their setup and see for yourself and then decide if that 5/35k bulb machine is worth the money!

You see short of spending 30k for a triple dlp marantz/jvc/whatever...you will never come close to a crt picture...and even then it lacks the "reality" that these devices are capable of projecting...

We are talking about three (2) part projection systems that work in an orchestrated environment....that just does something to the brain! (...at least to mine! and some of the others in this forum!)

Consider that for a 3 dimensional environment...they still use CRT's. and the government can certainly spend mega bucks on the latest techs...(...with tax payer money!)

If you are asking questions in this forum then my guess would be that you have instinctively "smelled" the possibilities..."old technologies" as it is called other places does not necessary mean that it is not superior in some way to the "new"
technologies!!!

It all depends on where your values are set!

...and before all the super spending "cutting edge" people show up and say I am bashing your technology! Know this....sure I would love a high tech setup with all the bells and whistles...but at the end of the day,how much value/satisfaction are you getting from your setup..

Everyone wants something different! So what you will need to do is to make a list and figure out what is important in the picture you are getting!

Oh almost forgot...higher resolutions do not automatically mean a nicer picture...whether it is 480i or 4000/4000dpi ...don't get stuck in the specs!!!
I am NOT going to get into the physics of it...suffice to say it all depends on how the source was made and how you deliver it!

HDTV/bluray/hddvd and this so called "full 1080p" devices and signals are not what they claim they are...(at least the majority of it!)

Sure it is nice to have as much bandwidth as possible in the video chain...it makes for some nice "maneuvers" on the screen...not to mention other stuff...

Personnaly for standard dvds I have yet to find a cleaner signal than a properly setup sdi dvdplayer to a nice video processor!

For the higher capability signals it all depends how they were filmed and what it is that you are trying to accomplish with it...

Again keep in mind that a nice crt/dlp/lcos/ would really suck with a poorly setup video chain/material!


I hope I didn't go to far in my arguments/points...

Good luck

Martin
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post #3 of 41 Old 11-20-2008, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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You know, after what you just said.. and the added fact that I realized it will still look STUNNING after all this.. even if I display in 1080i or something.

I'm so very used to the fact that interlaced looks like crap compared to progressive, but is this fact really true about really big screen stuff?

As far as getting it setup, I'll find a local in Montreal who can do it for me..

I think I'm sold on the 1351 LC, both because it's liquid cooled, but also because it's quite a good price for what I'm getting (though I may be looking at a bit more for calibration..

Figure out the sweet spot "size", buy a screen of that size, etc..

Add in like an HDMI 1.3a card, maybe a switcher on top of that... Be broke after that, but have a kickass home theatre :P
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post #4 of 41 Old 11-20-2008, 09:04 PM
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You may want to consider a Marquee 8500. Then you could add Mike Parker mods later to 'take it to the next level'. Then later on you could upgrade it to a 9500.

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post #5 of 41 Old 11-20-2008, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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How is the Nec 1351 LC compared to a Marquee 8500? and mostly, why is it so popular (the marquee)?
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post #6 of 41 Old 11-21-2008, 06:07 AM
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The marquee is popular because of its upgrade capabilities, with upgrade to the 9 inch model and also with mods to boards and lenses etc. Also it is still in production so the availability of parts is there for now and the future as Marquees used in corporate and simulators are retired for new sets. And reliability, these are workhorses. The one difference between the two are the LC tubes, there are 8500LC's but they are hard to find. Also the NEC is louder. If looking for a marquee buy from Curt or another reputable reseller as the ones on the bay usually have problems even though they are less expensive in the long run it will cost you as much as one from Curt Palme. Plus Curt is great with service after the sale.

But the LC has much more in adjustment controls and those who have them love them, Ask Gary Murell, he has had his for a long time. Best thing is if you can see each and then decide. I know there are Marquee owners in Montreal or near by.

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post #7 of 41 Old 11-21-2008, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashou66 View Post

The marquee is popular because of its upgrade capabilities, with upgrade to the 9 inch model and also with mods to boards and lenses etc. Also it is still in production so the availability of parts is there for now and the future as Marquees used in corporate and simulators are retired for new sets. And reliability, these are workhorses. The one difference between the two are the LC tubes, there are 8500LC's but they are hard to find. Also the NEC is louder. If looking for a marquee buy from Curt or another reputable reseller as the ones on the bay usually have problems even though they are less expensive in the long run it will cost you as much as one from Curt Palme. Plus Curt is great with service after the sale.

But the LC has much more in adjustment controls and those who have them love them, Ask Gary Murell, he has had his for a long time. Best thing is if you can see each and then decide. I know there are Marquee owners in Montreal or near by.

Athanasios

Gotcha, so the Marquees are infinitely upgradable to some of the highest quality stuff available, they are SICK modular (if I understand you correctly?) and have a million different mods and upgrades.

The one thing that confuses me is that you say the Nec is louder? But it's an LC model, aren't those by definition running cooler and quieter?
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post #8 of 41 Old 11-21-2008, 10:06 AM
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Quote:


The one thing that confuses me is that you say the Nec is louder? But it's an LC model, aren't those by definition running cooler and quieter?

LC = Liquid COUPLED - it has nothing to do with cooling.
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post #9 of 41 Old 11-21-2008, 10:06 AM
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The XGLC is sharper than a Marquee...but the XG is loud! Buyer beware if you like a quiet theater....also, don't be stuck on 1080p...with a crt, it is just not required. It IS required on digital displays however....
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post #10 of 41 Old 11-21-2008, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undeclared View Post

Gotcha, so the Marquees are infinitely upgradable to some of the highest quality stuff available, they are SICK modular (if I understand you correctly?) and have a million different mods and upgrades.

yes but more importantly they're still being made, so the supply of used parts from surplus will be around longer.
http://vdcds.com/products/crt/8110-8500-9500.html
Quiet is good too, Having a loud theatre is the same as reducing the dynamic range of your audio system. Quiet parts of the movie should be quiet and not sound like a swamp boat is driving through your basement.

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post #11 of 41 Old 11-21-2008, 03:06 PM
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If you add an 100 ohm resistor to the red lead to the deflection board fan on the XG, then the whine is knocked out of it and it sounds like any other CRT projector.

I would run an XG LC at 1080i 96hz. Not 1080p 60hz, it judders. You will need a scaler/Video Processor or a PC to do this.

Running a CRT directly from a BD player or DVD player can be problematic - I'd really recommend a scaler/VP or a PC.

G70s seem to handle direct connection quite well, XG's can be more finicky.

I would (and have) chose an XG LC over any air coupled projector. If you buy a Marquee, a 8500 is worse than an XG LC (comparable to a plain XG), a 8500LC is comparable to an XG LC, a Marquee 9500 (LC) is better.

A G70 is also a good choice, the only downsides are it has an AKB line (white line above the screen) and when it fails it's a bit harder to fix than an XG or Marquee.

If you buy a CRT it will break at some stage. They are old. You need to be able to handle that.

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post #12 of 41 Old 11-21-2008, 05:07 PM
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...Also necs are harder to setup and dial in...

I remember how many ajustments my lowly 6pg had...and all the ajustments seem to be interconnected...so i had to figure out which order to do them to get a decent pic out of it...

I have stuck with a marquee for 4 years and then went to a 9 inch sony....

Definably would like a 9 inch marquee ultra in the future...

anyhow good luck with your setup

Martin
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post #13 of 41 Old 11-21-2008, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post


A G70 is also a good choice, the only downsides are it has an AKB line (white line above the screen) and when it fails it's a bit harder to fix than an XG or Marquee.

If you buy a CRT it will break at some stage. They are old. You need to be able to handle that.

Just wanted to add that the G70 only has AKB line when AKB mode is enabled, I leave it off, however even if it is on it is usually blanked out by the black fabric sorrounding the screen. IMO the biggest downside to a G70 is the gullwing distortion you get at the top and bottom of the image.

Mark,

Could you explain why the G70 is harder to fix than an XG or Marquee when mine blew a PS board I simply pulled the board and sent it to Curt Palme, how would an XG or Marquee be any different?

RGB

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post #14 of 41 Old 11-21-2008, 06:59 PM
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Only some G70s will have decent colours/brightness with AKB disabled - at least that is my understanding.

And G70s are prone to some strange failures.

When an XG fails, it's usually simple to diagnose.

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post #15 of 41 Old 11-22-2008, 10:38 PM - Thread Starter
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That's kind of a big deal if I'm going to have to ever repair it.

Is this gonna happen once every few years? Once every few months?

I have to know these details because honestly if I'm spending a few grand I expect something that works consistently, otherwise I can just get a run-of-the-mill 720p projector for $400 on special and new bulbs every once in a while..
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post #16 of 41 Old 11-23-2008, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post

Only some G70s will have decent colours/brightness with AKB disabled - at least that is my understanding.

And G70s are prone to some strange failures.

When an XG fails, it's usually simple to diagnose.

I disagree. NEC's are just as effed up as SOnys..

If you want straightforward troubleshooting, get a BArco or E'home.

(undeclared, this is one tech doing tech talk smack with another tech )

Mark has worked on a LOT of NECs, so have I. I've also worked on literally 1000s of other sets. Every once in a while one problem defies solving remotely, sometimes it's bad troubleshooting via email, sometimes a customer gives wrong information so you are troubleshooting down the wrong track, once in a blue moon a set fails in a way that you don't expect.

Rest assured, there are usually plenty of parts available for the 'big 4' (NEC, Sony, Barco, E'home) of sets out there. Right now I'm hoarding sets like crazy to strip them down so I have a big inventory of parts for almost everything out there.

Also keep in mind that a digital projector chassis is designed to last 2-3 bulb lifespans on average. Sometime during the life of the second or third bulb, the chassis will fail. It can't be repaired, so you need to buy a new set.

Cheers!

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post #17 of 41 Old 11-23-2008, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undeclared View Post

That's kind of a big deal if I'm going to have to ever repair it. Is this gonna happen once every few years? Once every few months?

Based on my experiences, if you buy a refurbished Marquee, there is a 5% chance it will need a repair in the first 5 years you own it and run it.
Here's an example of how reliable they are. I helped a friend score an 8500 6 years ago. He got worried when he saw it had 40,000 hours on the chassis but he has ran it every single day and uses it for all his daily TV viewing. There has never been a single repair to the set yet.
You have to keep in mind these machines were made for industry and designed to run 24/7, that's why they cost around $20k to $40K new. They are not built like throw-away consumer technology.

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post #18 of 41 Old 11-23-2008, 10:10 AM
 
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Sure a bulb machine will trough a picture....and it will do it after a 2 minutes setup...
...but, chances are a lot of the people have not seem a well setup properly calibrated picture!
------------------------------------QUOTE--------------------------------

Yea a CRT can also throw a pic in 5 minutes after its mounted and roughed in as well.

Calibration does apply and after a good digital projector is calibrated you would be supprised.
You dont need a 250 pound projector any more. Im not trying to deter you from buying a CRT but you do need to concider that the projectors you are looking at are all used and have milage on them. I dont care if the tubes are new or not the unit is used and your putting an old projector into a new installation.

I would concider a 1080p digital like a Pioneer Kuro / RS2. Have you ever seen what that machine can do? And if you decided to do a big anamorphic screen in the future your screwd with your CRT. The digital atleast will be able to support that type of set up as I think they may become more popular as price of equipment is dropping and more manufactures make lenses and motorised sleds.

A Barco would be a nice choice for a CRT though if you do go CRT. They have nice styling and at least have a modern look to them. They are also very easy to get set up. I got to work on a Barco / Zenith 9" unit a few years ago. We ran it with a DVDO HD+ at 1080p and MAN that looked seriously good. I heard though this guys machine died and some company ( not me )pulled it down and put in a Epson Digital ( I dont like Epson's )

What do I have in my theater you ask?

A DWIN HD-700 CRT projector running at 720p Mine has a little over a 1000 hours on it now.
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post #19 of 41 Old 11-24-2008, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic C View Post

I would concider a 1080p digital like a Pioneer Kuro / RS2. Have you ever seen what that machine can do?

RS2 is a sweet machine if you have $6K to spend


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic C View Post

What do I have in my theater you ask? A DWIN HD-700 CRT projector running at 720p Mine has a little over a 1000 hours on it now.

There is a huge range of CRT machines to choose from betweeen the RS2 and $500. Dwin that will deliver 80%/90% of the performance of the RS1 for less than half the cost.

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post #20 of 41 Old 11-24-2008, 08:55 PM
 
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I agree but its hard to find a good running with very low hours projector for less then the price of an RS 1 or 2

Im problably wrong though as I have no idea what used machines are going for these days and what kind of quality is available. I just dont condier CRT any more as choice 1
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post #21 of 41 Old 11-24-2008, 10:59 PM
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What I was talking about wasn't to put down the bulb machines!

But seriously..which one can be run for 100,000 hours?
Not to mention the stunning picture you can get out of a decent 8 inch, compare that to a single dlp 2 to 3 times its price...

When it comes down to I still prefer a CRT, don't get me wrong it is not because of the value...I can certainly afford a jvc,marantz, or a new runco....but when it comes down to it...It just does not make me happy...

I have a quite setup with the best picture you can get from a standard/bluray dvd...sure i run a video processor/moome card, these are all added expenses but at the and I get to enjoy it with the minimum amount of headaches. and it is as transparent as a well setup audio system!

keep in mind that these are only my thoughts and some of the others frequenting this forum...

Hope the thread was helpful for unknown...Also Curt is right!

Vic C...you will no need an anomorphic lens with a CRT to compensate for the inabilities of the projectors lense...you can do all that in an htpc or a video processor..and the results are so much better!

Good luck on you hunt unknown

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post #22 of 41 Old 11-24-2008, 11:29 PM
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100,000 hours?

In your dreams.

Tubes last for 3000 hours. That's 33 sets of tubes.

Marquee counting hours when it's turned off doesn't count (stupid design that).

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post #23 of 41 Old 11-25-2008, 08:05 AM
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3k hours?? I hope not!

Mine has 1500 hrs and looks clean. Perhaps after 5000 hrs it starts focus loss slowly. It all depends how hard you drive the tubes. But generally CRT is a lot more robust in built Q compared to main stream digital counter parts.
My DLP (a Dark chip 3) has 500 hrs and I see uniformity issue (one side is much brighter that the other which I never had when new) from side to side and brightness have changed drastically but my XG still looks as good as new with probably 25% (at most) reduction in light output. Long term dependibility/reliability and serviceability of CRT should be better than main stream digital pj's if that is the criteria.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #24 of 41 Old 11-25-2008, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post

Tubes last for 3000 hours. That's 33 sets of tubes.

I have no idea which CRT your refering to? A marquee run at normal contrast won't even show a mask at $3K hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post

Marquee counting hours when it's turned off doesn't count (stupid design that).

you have no idea what your talking about when it comes to Marquee's, they do not count hours when turned off

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post #25 of 41 Old 11-25-2008, 10:21 AM
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I was talking about chassis...NOT TUBES!!! (even though the tubes last a heck of a lot than 3k hours...the only time i see "wear" at low hours is when a neanderthal has "set" it up)

These beasts should have a defense mechanism in place to zap those with lower understanding of how to use them...

bottom line is that all my crts have lasted a lot longer than any other tech that i have bought and owned...


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post #26 of 41 Old 11-25-2008, 10:23 AM
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I think an EM focus crt run at low contrast would stay sharp and bright for at least 8000 hours...
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post #27 of 41 Old 11-25-2008, 10:55 AM
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I think an EM focus crt run at low contrast would stay sharp and bright for at least 8000 hours...

yes absolutely

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post #28 of 41 Old 11-25-2008, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
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Tubes last for 3000 hours.

Of all people, I'd think that you'd consider the premature replacement of tubes ecologically immoral.
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post #29 of 41 Old 11-25-2008, 12:42 PM
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Smartarse Clarence.

3k hours is still 10 years.


We'll see how long your tubes really last. I had an Xtra at 4500 hours and it needed a new green if you were fussy. I'm fussy. I really don't think an XG/G70 or G90 will go much past 3k hours, not if you USE it.

Stirred you lot up didn't I? Hahaha.

And yes Dragan, Marquees do count hours when the power cord is plugged in, but the projector is turned "off". That's how they fry their filaments too.

Loving my Electric Bike!!
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post #30 of 41 Old 11-25-2008, 04:04 PM
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I am a relative new comer to this site as far as participation goes, but here is my 2 cents. IMO set up is not easy, especially for someone that has no experience and and no where to get help. If you get the projector from Curt and he is gonna support you than so be it. I bought an NEC XG135 from a theater guy in my state in 2001. I had it set up by another HT guy, including an ISF calibration. It looked great. Over the years it has lost its "pop" so to speak. I have focused it to keep it sharp, but it just doesn't look that good any more. I think the colors have drifted or something. I am projecting a 120 inch pic. The bulb hours are something like 3500, but I believe it was reset before, maybe even more than once. SOOO now I am on the list to get the new JVC RS 20. Why, I CAN NOT get any help with this thing. Guys in my area will not even look at it. All I want to get is an opinion of if it can be readjusted to look better than it looks now. Most HT dealers, even the ones that used to sell these machines have NO interest in giving me an opinion and won't even return my calls. One dealer will come to my house for an ISF tuning for $400 and a convergence is $1000. This is really frustrating. Jason at AVS will come see me when he is in the area sometime in the future. Will my projector be fixable? I don't know.

My advice. If you are not willing to do ALL the work yourself, get a digital projector. At least there is support.
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