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Clarence's Avatar Clarence
01:03 PM Liked: 12
post #31 of 105
01-09-2009 | Posts: 8,851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Some people have said the G70VR lenses are not ideal on small screens... I have an 84" diag screen, so I wonder if the stock lenses would change things.

Chad, you can swap lenses with one of my G70s if you want to.
Chad B's Avatar Chad B
01:13 PM Liked: 517
post #32 of 105
01-09-2009 | Posts: 2,132
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New close ups of the 1 pixel wide lines.
LL
Chad B's Avatar Chad B
01:15 PM Liked: 517
post #33 of 105
01-09-2009 | Posts: 2,132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

Chad, you can swap lenses with one of my G70s if you want to.


You have anything else you could sweeten the deal with?
Clarence's Avatar Clarence
01:16 PM Liked: 12
post #34 of 105
01-09-2009 | Posts: 8,851
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Much better depiction. Very nice V 1:1 lines.
Chad B's Avatar Chad B
01:23 PM Liked: 517
post #35 of 105
01-09-2009 | Posts: 2,132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

Much better depiction. Very nice V 1:1 lines.

Thanks! Actually, I'd like to try a stock lens on the red just to see the difference. The HD 134's are rare and expensive, but if they don't work well with my screen size...
Clarence's Avatar Clarence
01:31 PM Liked: 12
post #36 of 105
01-09-2009 | Posts: 8,851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post


You have anything else you could sweeten the deal with?

I don't really have a personal interest in the VR lenses and I don't really know the limitations of them.

I'll probably be parting out one of the G70's... it's giving a Error 29, which goes away when I swap out the B board, so if you're just interested in getting a standard set of lenses instead of swapping, just LMK.
rajdude's Avatar rajdude
01:36 PM Liked: 10
post #37 of 105
01-09-2009 | Posts: 2,102
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good screenshot Chad!

It shows exactly what I am talking about (bandwidth problems)

I recall correctly, I was talking to Scott (tse) quite some time back and I think it was he who told me:

Notice the horizontal 1:1 lines pattern:
The PJ is fully resolving the 1080 horizontal lines....they don't have any color in them. Pretty much perfect!

Notice the vertical 1:1 lines pattern:
Although the PJ is displaying the 1920 vertical lines....the pattern is pinkish. The color shift has something to do with the bandwidth limitations of the projector. In the ideal case, there will be no color shift.

I hope someone more technical than me can chime in here and explain in detail why the pattern is pinkish.....and what exactly are we losing here (in terms of absolute detail)

Two tests I recommend:
  1. Try lower refresh rates (maybe with a HTPC if your Lumagen can't do it). See if that gets rid of the color shift.
  2. Try the same pattern on a Digital PJ.i know I know..but this is all in the matter of science! I bet the color shift will NOT be there.


For testingon my Office LCD monitor, I do not see any color shift. But in my G70 at home..the same pattern shows the pinkish colorcast. I am using Displaymate software to display a 1:1 pattern.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

New close ups of the 1 pixel wide lines.


Mark_A_W's Avatar Mark_A_W
02:03 PM Liked: 10
post #38 of 105
01-09-2009 | Posts: 8,110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

good screenshot Chad!

It shows exactly what I am talking about (bandwidth problems)

I recall correctly, I was talking to Scott (tse) quite some time back and I think it was he who told me:

Notice the horizontal 1:1 lines pattern:
The PJ is fully resolving the 1080 horizontal lines....they don’t have any color in them. Pretty much perfect!

Notice the vertical 1:1 lines pattern:
Although the PJ is displaying the 1920 vertical lines....the pattern is pinkish. The color shift has something to do with the bandwidth limitations of the projector. In the ideal case, there will be no color shift.

I hope someone more technical than me can chime in here and explain in detail why the pattern is pinkish.....and what exactly are we losing here (in terms of absolute detail)

Two tests I recommend:
  1. Try lower refresh rates (maybe with a HTPC if your Lumagen can’t do it). See if that gets rid of the color shift.
  2. Try the same pattern on a Digital PJ….i know I know…..but this is all in the matter of science! I bet the color shift will NOT be there.


For testing……on my Office LCD monitor, I do not see any color shift. But in my G70 at home…..the same pattern shows the pinkish colorcast. I am using Displaymate software to display a 1:1 pattern.


It just means the Red and Blue aren't quite as sharp as the Green. It's pretty standard
to get a purplish hue in a 1:1 at that level.

I'd be looking at one colour at a time. Blue is SUPPOSED to be defocused.


Those pictures are pretty good - that's 1080p 60hz right? That's sharper than my XG, and many have said the G70 has inferior bandwidth. Not if that pic is 1080p 60hz, the G70 is just fine.

I think 1080i 96hz is the best res for an 8"er. No judder like 1080p 60hz, no flicker like 1080p 48hz, but you have to try these all for yourself.


PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080=1920,112,128,115,1080,46,5,30,126655,542

Generic timing details for 1920x1080:
HFP=112 HSW=128 HBP=115 kHz=56 VFP=46 VSW=5 VBP=30 Hz=48

VESA detailed timing:
PClk=126.66 H.Active=1920 H.Blank=355 H.Offset=96 HSW=128 V.Active=1080 V.Blank=81 V.Offset=46 VSW=5

Linux modeline parameters:
"1920x1080" 126.655 1920 2032 2160 2275 1080 1126 1131 1161 interlace -hsync -vsync
Frank D's Avatar Frank D
05:06 PM Liked: 27
post #39 of 105
01-09-2009 | Posts: 1,353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Here's my G70VR displaying a resolution pattern, HDMI 1080p24 into a Lumagen VisionHDP conveting to 1080p60 into the G70 via a Moome card.
It doesn't show in the photo, but it actually does faintly differentiate the single pixel wide lines, both vertically and horizontally.
Test pattern generator is a Quantum Data 802BT.

Have you tried feeding the Lumagen 1080i60 to see if there was any difference in the pattern? I have feed the Lumagen 1080i60 and 1080p24 and the p24 signal showed a sharper image (Used both a Toshiba XA2 HD DVD player and Sharp 20U Blu Ray player with same results). I found this interesting as I was told by Lumangen that there should be no difference between 1080i60 and 1080p24.

I used the 1080 resolution pattern in HD DVE basic HD DVD and also Blu Ray disks.

I have a Sony G90 and inputed 1080p60 from the Lumagen.
Chad B's Avatar Chad B
05:35 PM Liked: 517
post #40 of 105
01-09-2009 | Posts: 2,132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank D View Post

Have you tried feeding the Lumagen 1080i60 to see if there was any difference in the pattern? I have feed the Lumagen 1080i60 and 1080p24 and the p24 signal showed a sharper image (Used both a Toshiba XA2 HD DVD player and Sharp 20U Blu Ray player with same results). I found this interesting as I was told by Lumangen that there should be no difference between 1080i60 and 1080p24.

I used the 1080 resolution pattern in HD DVE basic HD DVD and also Blu Ray disks.

I have a Sony G90 and inputed 1080p60 from the Lumagen.

Yes, I have and I got the same results (1080i input blurs lines, 1080p/24 input shows lines) with a strange exception. Input 1080i to the Lum and 1080p/60 to the G70, and most of the time it blurs the horizontal lines, like it is doing a poor job of deinterlacing. But if I have the pattern up, go into the Lum's menu, cycle the deinterlacing settings from auto 1 to film, etc, then leave it on auto 1, when I get out of the menu it suddenly clears up when the on screen menu disappears and displays the individual lines like it's supposed to! However, I can't get it to stay like that no matter what I try.
I think Lumagen should address this. I've observed it not only on my G70 but also on a friend's JVC RS20.
Frank D's Avatar Frank D
08:38 PM Liked: 27
post #41 of 105
01-09-2009 | Posts: 1,353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

Yes, I have and I got the same results (1080i input blurs lines, 1080p/24 input shows lines) with a strange exception. Input 1080i to the Lum and 1080p/60 to the G70, and most of the time it blurs the horizontal lines, like it is doing a poor job of deinterlacing. But if I have the pattern up, go into the Lum's menu, cycle the deinterlacing settings from auto 1 to film, etc, then leave it on auto 1, when I get out of the menu it suddenly clears up when the on screen menu disappears and displays the individual lines like it's supposed to! However, I can't get it to stay like that no matter what I try.
I think Lumagen should address this. I've observed it not only on my G70 but also on a friend's JVC RS20.

What verion firmware date are you using on your Lunagen HDP?
Chad B's Avatar Chad B
11:25 PM Liked: 517
post #42 of 105
01-09-2009 | Posts: 2,132
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I'm using the second to last firmware from July of '08, I believe.
tse's Avatar tse
12:17 PM Liked: 10
post #43 of 105
01-11-2009 | Posts: 1,420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

New close ups of the 1 pixel wide lines.

The one on/one off vertical lines are showing a lack of green so the color is tending toward purple. There needs to be more high frequency output from the green video amplifier to make the lines gray. Green usually poops out first because it takes alot more green than the other colors to make gray.

For an experiment try turning down the contrast and see if the lines don't become more gray.

Forum member Lyckman posted a picture showing closer to ideal responce.

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...&&#post8769734

Scott
rajdude's Avatar rajdude
07:47 AM Liked: 10
post #44 of 105
01-12-2009 | Posts: 2,102
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Hi Scott!
It has been a very long time I have talked to you on AVS.

Hey, thanks for chiming in here. I could not explain (technically) why this pattern was less than ideal.

I looked at Lyckman's screenshot...For a CRT projector that surely is an awesome shot.

does a 9500LC have a higher bandwidth than a Sony G70 or even G90?


One question while we are talking about this issue:
Last night I looked at this pattern. I looked at each color individually. Green and red were very well defined. Blue was pretty much useless. I could see absolutely no lines in the 1:1 pattern. I guess that is due to the automatic defocussing.

For a sharper 1080p picture, should we disable the auto-defocus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tse View Post

The one on/one off vertical lines are showing a lack of green so the color is tending toward purple. There needs to be more high frequency output from the green video amplifier to make the lines gray. Green usually poops out first because it takes alot more green than the other colors to make gray.

For an experiment try turning down the contrast and see if the lines don't become more gray.

Forum member Lyckman posted a picture showing closer to ideal responce.

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...&&#post8769734

Scott


nashou66's Avatar nashou66
07:53 AM Liked: 86
post #45 of 105
01-12-2009 | Posts: 4,366
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if you turn off blue defocus then you will not have a good grey scale, all your colors will look wrong.

And Yes the 9500LC' have a better Video chain, its is a higher bandwidth but that is not the only thing the Marquees video path is very simple. its the cleanest of all PJ video Chains from what Mike Parker has said in the past. And he has looked at i think all makes.

Athanasios
tse's Avatar tse
06:52 PM Liked: 10
post #46 of 105
01-12-2009 | Posts: 1,420
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Hi Rajdude,

Glad to see that you are still hanging in CRT world. I think the Marquee has one of the highest bandwidth video systems out there. For years I tried to get owners of different brand projectors to post pics of one off/one on pixel test patterns and got very few takers.

For some reason the blue usually has the worst focus. I don't know why but blue only contributes about 11% of the light so it doesn't hurt so much to be not so good. Probably better to have plenty of blue light from a little defocus than to have perfect blue focus.

Scott
mp20748's Avatar mp20748
06:30 AM Liked: 13
post #47 of 105
01-13-2009 | Posts: 6,339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tse View Post

Hi Rajdude,

Glad to see that you are still hanging in CRT world. I think the Marquee has one of the highest bandwidth video systems out there. For years I tried to get owners of different brand projectors to post pics of one off/one on pixel test patterns and got very few takers.

Scott

I have all three (G90, 909, Marquee) of the top CRT projectors in my shop.

No question, the Marquee has the highest bandwidth video chain of them all.

Under good testing (one pixel test - sq wave/rise time test), the 909 rates about half of it's published bandwidth.
rajdude's Avatar rajdude
06:56 AM Liked: 10
post #48 of 105
01-13-2009 | Posts: 2,102
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Folks,
I got into some trouble yesterday night.

On my HTPC 1080p resolution does not "stick". I mean, when I reboot or even minimize media center, the PC automatically switches to 1600x1200!!

To go to 1080p I have to go to nVidia control panel >> custom resolutions >> test. again and again.

Yesterday I installed the latest nvidiadriver from Jan 8th, hoping it will take care of this problem. Unfortunately, it does not! The new driver fails while setting 1080p/48 rez.

Anyway, I rolled back the driver and now the old driver also does not work properly. It seems that it (the old driver) is not reducing the porches. I get very bad flicker.

Any tips from HTPC users out here?
Frank D's Avatar Frank D
07:47 AM Liked: 27
post #49 of 105
01-13-2009 | Posts: 1,353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

For a sharper 1080p picture, should we disable the auto-defocus?

Yes but grey scale will be off in the mid ire levels.

Here is a suggestion:
One may be able to disable the auto-defocus and have the best of both worlds ie. sharp blue and very good grey scale but you would need something like a Lumangen HDP to do this. The Lumagen offers grey scale adjustment at various points thereby allowing one to correct the mid level ire grey scale.

Has anyone tried this or something similiar?
cinema mad's Avatar cinema mad
05:06 AM Liked: 34
post #50 of 105
01-14-2009 | Posts: 1,840
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It is as simple as this, A Stock SONY G70 CANNOT FULLY RESOLVE Standard 1080p @60HZ let alone 1920x1200p @ 96hz... The image produced will undoubtedly be soft compared to A more optimum res like others have recommended....

Cheers....
Mark_A_W's Avatar Mark_A_W
05:35 AM Liked: 10
post #51 of 105
01-14-2009 | Posts: 8,110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

It is as simple as this, A Stock SONY G70 CANNOT FULLY RESOLVE Standard 1080p @60HZ let alone 1920x1200p @ 96hz... The image produced will undoubtedly be soft compared to A more optimum res like others have recommended....

Cheers....

How do you know it will be soft? Have you tried it?

Yes, the desktop will be soft. But video may not be - there's less information in 1920x1080 video than 1920x1200.

I'm not saying it will be good. I'm saying I don't know.

1 test is worth 1000 opinions.
cinema mad's Avatar cinema mad
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Hi Mark, FWIW I have A low hour G70 with mint Tubes but would'nt wast my time and effort setting up A res like standard 1080x1920 @60hz when it will not produce optimum results no .... Do it right the first time...

Cheers....
rajdude's Avatar rajdude
07:34 AM Liked: 10
post #53 of 105
01-14-2009 | Posts: 2,102
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Would a screenshot put your apprehensions to rest ?


BTW, why would someone want to use 96 Hz ?

Also isn't the "standard" for 1080p is 24 Hz?

Here in USA.... no station broadcasts 1080p@60Hz. We only get 720p@60 and 1080i@60

How is it down under?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

It is as simple as this, A Stock SONY G70 CANNOT FULLY RESOLVE Standard 1080p @60HZ let alone 1920x1200p @ 96hz... The image produced will undoubtedly be soft compared to A more optimum res like others have recommended....

Cheers....


rajdude's Avatar rajdude
07:37 AM Liked: 10
post #54 of 105
01-14-2009 | Posts: 2,102
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I'm going to try exactly this.....once I can get 1080p working again on my HTPC.

My HTPC is able to do automatic greyscale calibration in 10 minutes! Just hook up the meter and run the routine.....10 minutes later my response is razor flat!

Gotta love software!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank D View Post

Yes but grey scale will be off in the mid ire levels.

Here is a suggestion:
One may be able to disable the auto-defocus and have the best of both worlds ie. sharp blue and very good grey scale but you would need something like a Lumangen HDP to do this. The Lumagen offers grey scale adjustment at various points thereby allowing one to correct the mid level ire grey scale.

Has anyone tried this or something similiar?


Mark_A_W's Avatar Mark_A_W
01:55 PM Liked: 10
post #55 of 105
01-14-2009 | Posts: 8,110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

Hi Mark, FWIW I have A low hour G70 with mint Tubes but would'nt wast my time and effort setting up A res like standard 1080x1920 @60hz when it will not produce optimum results no .... Do it right the first time...

Cheers....

I know.

And I have a low hour XG LC.


They are basically identical in performance (except you have an AKB line).


Doug Baisey once setup an XG at 1200p, that is what the customer wanted. He said it looked good.

I wouldn't do it, but I wouldn't dismiss it without trying it first.
Mark_A_W's Avatar Mark_A_W
01:59 PM Liked: 10
post #56 of 105
01-14-2009 | Posts: 8,110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

Would a screenshot put your apprehensions to rest ?


BTW, why would someone want to use 96 Hz ?

Also isn't the "standard" for 1080p is 24 Hz?

Here in USA.... no station broadcasts 1080p@60Hz. We only get 720p@60 and 1080i@60

How is it down under?

"BTW, why would someone want to use 96 Hz ?"

Because it is a multiple of 24fps and you avoid judder.



"Also isn't the "standard" for 1080p is 24 Hz?" Yes, but you can't watch that on a CRT. You need to go to 48hz (flicker), 72hz, 96hz or 120hz. If you do 96hz or 120hz you really need to make those resolutions interlaced.

How is it down under? HDTV is 1080i 50hz. But Bluray is same as you guys.
rajdude's Avatar rajdude
06:45 PM Liked: 10
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01-14-2009 | Posts: 2,102
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perhaps I should have clarified my comment on the 96.......
I know 24 is way too low for a CRT PJ. Hence most people try to use 72.
IMHO 48 with reduced porches (as described in this thread) seems to be an ideal solution.

But 96p is just too much overkill when you achive the desired smoothness at 48 or 72.

96i sounds interesting....but why would we want to go that high refresh and then make it low rez 1080i?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post

"BTW, why would someone want to use 96 Hz ?"

Because it is a multiple of 24fps and you avoid judder.



"Also isn't the "standard" for 1080p is 24 Hz?" Yes, but you can't watch that on a CRT. You need to go to 48hz (flicker), 72hz, 96hz or 120hz. If you do 96hz or 120hz you really need to make those resolutions interlaced.

How is it down under? HDTV is 1080i 50hz. But Bluray is same as you guys.


Mark_A_W's Avatar Mark_A_W
06:52 PM Liked: 10
post #58 of 105
01-14-2009 | Posts: 8,110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdude View Post

96i sounds interesting....but why would we want to go that high refresh and then make it low rez 1080i?


Sigh....

Think of 1080i 96hz as 1080p 48hz, but without the flicker. The resolution is the same.
MikeEby's Avatar MikeEby
07:01 PM Liked: 10
post #59 of 105
01-14-2009 | Posts: 2,452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post

Sigh....

Think of 1080i 96hz as 1080p 48hz, but without the flicker. The resolution is the same.

Dark scenes on an XG look great at 48hz, bright scenes give me a headache from the flicker.

Mike
cinema mad's Avatar cinema mad
07:04 PM Liked: 34
post #60 of 105
01-14-2009 | Posts: 1,840
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The harder/faster the retrace time to produce the image on the raster the less accurate the image to A point compared to A slower retrace but the down side can produce fliker if you dont set up the optimum Timing & the harder you drive the Tubes the faster they wear no?....

1080i is the same rez as 1080p its just Interlaced instead of Progressive...
Cheers....

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