CRT "motion resolution" superior to Digitals? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 04-18-2009, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I read that CRT projectors have superior "motion resolution" compared to digital projectors?

Where are the links or references that have test results of CRT vs digitals motion resolutions?
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post #2 of 19 Old 04-18-2009, 12:19 PM
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There was this thread over in the digital section.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1117231&page=9. Scroll down a bit to one of the Cow is Ok posts. He posts some of his measurements. That is the only recent thread I recall on the subject.
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post #3 of 19 Old 04-18-2009, 12:35 PM
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post #4 of 19 Old 04-19-2009, 07:52 PM
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Depends on the digital.

Sharp LCD A950 does full 1080 in motion, as do the new Panasonic Plasmas with NeoPDP panels. I don't know of any digital pjs that retain full 1080 in motion (SSE or silk-screen effect is the artifact).
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post #5 of 19 Old 05-02-2009, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse S View Post

Depends on the digital.

Sharp LCD A950 does full 1080 in motion, as do the new Panasonic Plasmas with NeoPDP panels. I don't know of any digital pjs that retain full 1080 in motion (SSE or silk-screen effect is the artifact).

I think you mean the samsung a950 lcd, right?
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post #6 of 19 Old 05-03-2009, 03:47 PM
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this in my opinion is the biggest problem that digital has, the motion and movement however slight it may be will not match CRT

those of you that have a DVDO scaler, take a look at the judder bar pattern, the white bar that moves from side to side, no digital in the world can match the CRT image stability during movement, use this pattern to test and you will see what I mean

when they can is when I will consider a switch, the RS20 is not even close really

-Gary
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post #7 of 19 Old 05-22-2009, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Gary,
I know that CRT projectors are the best but, in your opinion, which digital projector(s) did the best job of doing the judder bar pattern?
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post #8 of 19 Old 05-22-2009, 08:13 PM
 
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Part of the problem, I think, is because a digital is sample-and hold, there is no black between frames that occur to 'break up' the motion which causes smearing in your vision as you scan across the screen smoothly.

In other words, with a CRT or with film, as you scan your eyes across following a 'moving' object, there is decay there that goes black so that the sequence of images is broken and you don't have a smear behind where your eye is tracking the 'virtual' object of the actual fixed image. On a digital, the image is static, and as you pan your eyes it stays full intensity the whole time.

In my view, what needs to happen to more truly match what you see on a CRT is the ability to drive a digital display at a very fast refresh rate and insert some black frames to break up the constant image. I think the weakness of attempts to do that right now is that the refresh isn't high enough so the black-frame time is very significant, and you thus lose a whole lot of light output.

As someone who has switched my theater from a CRT to the JVC RS20, it is probably the largest downside for me. In a comparison solely between images, without considering all the other cost and time and life and brightness flexibility options that go into choosing a projector, just purely images, I do feel that I prefer the image of a 9-incher.
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post #9 of 19 Old 05-22-2009, 08:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biomed_eng_2000 View Post

Gary,
I know that CRT projectors are the best but, in your opinion, which digital projector(s) did the best job of doing the judder bar pattern?

In my opinion, I think a DLP does a little better than an LCOS display. My presumption here is because the mirror dithering kind of breaks it up, but that's difficult to prove since it is so fast that it really should be effectively the same thing as a truly constant-hold as it is on an LCOS. However, if you pause a still image on a 3-chip DLP and on an LCOS machine, then scan your eyes across it tracking a smooth moving object (like your fingertip or something) you'll notice some difference. I would have to attribute that to the dithering that continues to occur on a DLP.

I leave 1-chippers out in terms of my own viewing because I always see rainbows. But I admit that I'm an oddball on this one, so you might clump 1 and 3-chip dlps together, it's just you have an added thing happening with color that further breaks things up which in a way may give a 1-chipper an advantage in terms of pushing it closer to a CRT with motion, but then if you're seeing colors breaking down behind that then it's a whole other can of worms. But then again, there are rainbows happening on a CRT too, so it's really just a worm fiesta happening no matter what kind of display you're looking at.

I guess just be happy with what you've got?
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post #10 of 19 Old 05-22-2009, 08:22 PM
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Well said Chris. I've noticed this several times with all digitals.

What do you think of frame interpolation?

Cliff
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post #11 of 19 Old 05-22-2009, 09:10 PM
 
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Cliff: I don't like frame interpolation for film at all. Would never consider using it for a second for film.

For TV, I think it looks 'strange' mainly in the sense that it is different and unusual. It varies depends on implementation, I'm most familiar with Samsung LCD's flat panel implementation, which I don't think is the best out there, so only judging on this particular implementation I find it a bit hard to get used to.

It does/would reduce the kind of motion issues that you get with a sample-and hold like an LCD, but then everything looks radically different.

That all being said, my benchmark is accuracy, and it's a VERY different look and feel to a film, which is why I never ever would consider using it there. I don't feel the same thing about TV, but then I don't really watch TV except CSPAN, so needless to say I don't care a whole lot about what stuff looks like on TV.

So in the end, I think it's intriguing, and I'd love to see a really high-end and well executed implementation of frame interpolation, and I can see it being very useful for certain specialized tasks (virtual reality, simulators etc) or content, but it is a drastic departure from the look of the content as it was created that I'm interested in, thus inaccurate. And in my book, inaccurate generally always equals bad.
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post #12 of 19 Old 05-22-2009, 09:17 PM
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I found it a bit funny as well. Liked it a bit at first but then the nasties appeared.

The thing that sucks for me is time to either retube soon or jump to the digital side. The only projector that even has a glimpse for me right now after reading is the Lumis. That is BUKO bucks though so not an option right now.

I guess I'll just have to go for the Quad Stack.

Cliffy
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post #13 of 19 Old 05-23-2009, 12:31 AM
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Cliff, I've been eyeing the Lumis also, but if I had the chance to do the quad stack G90 which do you think I would do?

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post #14 of 19 Old 05-23-2009, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

Cliff, I've been eyeing the Lumis also, but if I had the chance to do the quad stack G90 which do you think I would do?


We'd definitely have to see that one side by side for sure. For simplicity, the Lumis I bet throws one heck of a pic.

A rear projected quad stack/blend though, hmmmmm.......
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post #15 of 19 Old 05-23-2009, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr View Post

We'd definitely have to see that one side by side for sure. For simplicity, the Lumis I bet throws one heck of a pic.

A rear projected quad stack/blend though, hmmmmm.......

Ahh...But the speakers behind the screen ruin the image. BTW how was ST IMAX?


Mike
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post #16 of 19 Old 05-26-2009, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

Cliff, I've been eyeing the Lumis also, but if I had the chance to do the quad stack G90 which do you think I would do?


I have both my Marquee and Lumis connected to Radiance dual output. I can switch and mask the output for each projector instantly. Both throws a pleasant pic. The Pro/Cons of each PJ is obvious but I see no reason to switch if I owned only 1 PJ. Re motion resolution advantage for CRT, Check my sticky thread in the digital Forum.
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post #17 of 19 Old 05-26-2009, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

I have both my Marquee and Lumis connected to Radiance dual output. I can switch and mask the output for each projector instantly. Both throws a pleasant pic. The Pro/Cons of each PJ is obvious but I see no reason to switch if I owned only 1 PJ. Re motion resolution advantage for CRT, Check my sticky thread in the digital Forum.

Well that's very interesting... so you think that if I replaced my hot rodded marquee blend for the Lumis I wouldn't be happy?

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post #18 of 19 Old 05-26-2009, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gino AUS View Post

Well that's very interesting... so you think that if I replaced my hot rodded marquee blend for the Lumis I wouldn't be happy?


You will be happy with either of those PJs. IF you can keep up with the trouble/time of maintaining a stack at optimal performance, I see no reason for paying premium to get the lumis.
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post #19 of 19 Old 05-26-2009, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

You will be happy with either of those PJs. IF you can keep up with the trouble/time of maintaining a stack at optimal performance, I see no reason for paying premium to get the lumis.

Ummm... I have been blending with the DVX8022 (BlendZilla) for 3 years now and have had my hand in other blend setups worldwide

(My blend setup cost me much much more than the lumis, heck the BlendZilla was $17K on its own)

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