CRT ceiling projectors still the bomb with HD - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 57 Old 02-03-2014, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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This is something I just wrote over at my Don't Dump Your CRT RPTV! thread, which just hit its 400th page and now has received (incredibly!) more than a million views. A friend over there, Last But Not Least, says I should place it where it belongs as well, so here goes. It's about CRT ceiling projector technology and how today's HD affects that. My point of view is that if you own a CRT ceiling projector, these days with today's HD you can't do too much better than that, even today. You should keep your projector and keep it fully dialed in.

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Thanks Mr. Bob. I have heard of VDC and in fact I checked their website for the price of a 07MP CRT for my 2 Sony 1271Q projectors.


Your 1271Q projectors are capable of true greatness now that we have HD. Back when you bought them, the best they had to work with was upconverted 480i via a Faroudja or Runco Controller or Crystal Image or some other highly expensive scaler. Now with HD these incredible Sonys - and all other CRT ceiling projectors of that time period - are capable of receiving many times more pixel density than existed back then native, and ALL COHERENT. NONE of it synthesized via scaling. ALL NATIVE HIGH RESOLUTION HD of many times the density of 480i and none of it stomped on or upconverted in any way. Content which simply didn't exist when those projectors were made.

Resulting in a HUGE spike in performance. Pictures so naturally crisp you fall into them. Put native HD into those projectors now and see what it looks like! You will be amazed.

If you want to see what that kind of CRT projector is capable of now, go to the AVS thread Screenshot War!!!!!!!! And be prepared to have your jaw drop. The Thread Starter, a guy named Cliff in Indiana, has a G90 double stack, fully dialed in by incredible calibrator Ken Whitcomb. It has precision resolution with untouched HD that Faroudja owners using 480i can only cry over. At times he adds a third G90 and that combo delivers over 525,000:1 contrast ratio, static AND dynamic. It's truly dazzling. Up in OLED territory.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/900831/screenshot-war/5460#post_24140128

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I will be glad to dial in both your 1271Qs whenever you are ready.

b

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post #2 of 57 Old 02-05-2014, 05:50 PM
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Say Bob

Your comments made a lot of sense...... ten years ago. CRT projectors with seven and eight inch tubes are now candidates for the nearest landfill as tubes for these have not been made for several years now. I had sets of new eight inch tubes here for $1200 a year ago with no buyers to be found. VDC Novatron in Shreveport sent 60,000 RPTV tubes to the crusher in the last two years for lack of demand; I talked to them every week until they closed about fourteen months ago. Sony 07s and other electrostatic-focus systems turn into blurs after a few thousand hours, and no amount of calibration can solve that. Nine inch tubes are still made in small quantities for the simulation market, in the $1200+ each range for bare tubes, rendering most eight inch systems worthless unless they can be fitted with nine inch tubes like the Marquee 8500 and a few Barco models. The path of least resistance is convenience and low cost, and the flat panels have sent CRTs to fossilization.

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post #3 of 57 Old 02-06-2014, 01:25 AM
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Start using time on something that make sense.
In no way what so ever will a CRT be better in HD material. In every possible picture or film.

I have seen with mods and without mods and 808 and 909, cine 9, and so on.
New sim tubes and super gun and so on.

Stop this nonsense. A CRT is history in picture. SD resolution compared with a good digital.
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post #4 of 57 Old 02-06-2014, 06:32 PM
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Tim at E-Tech ooo ehometech@earthlink.net ......your Marquee Pro Shop!

Tim, how's business these days? I'm honestly curious. I know you to be a CRT specialist so I'm surprised to hear that you don't think it's relevant anymore.
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post #5 of 57 Old 02-07-2014, 10:06 AM
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Guys

You need only to look at VideoGon's free CRT ads http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/fs.pl?projcrta

Five years ago you would see fifteen new ads a week, there were fifteen the last year.......

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post #6 of 57 Old 02-09-2014, 12:59 PM
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+10
Lol
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post #7 of 57 Old 02-11-2014, 07:57 AM
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Wow, it's either one extreme or the other, isn't it? As one of the last guys on the face of the planet that makes his living working on CRTs, and has for the last 15 years, I think both extremes are wrong.

For the average person, using a CRT is indeed long dead. I always compare it to the person that drives a 1965 Mustang. The average person won't want to drive a carbureted car, they want something to jump into, turn the key, and go. That's what digital is today. Thing is, you have the people that like the tweaking, the fact that they can replace a tube/rebuild a carburetor, something that you simply cannot do with a digital. A digital is a throwaway unit, as is most electronics today. Once it fails, you buy a new one. That is absolutely not the case with CRT.

Thing is, things like tubes for a 12XX Sony CRT are long discontinued. They were $750 each from Sony back when they were available, but Sony hasn't had them available in over 10 years. Ditto for any other parts for any of their CRT projectors. As with the 1965 Mustang, CRT is strictly a DIY thing. If you don't know electronics, don't like tweaking, then don't buy a CRT.

Still, a CRT doesn't need constant tweaking as many think or state on forums like this. My own Barco retro 808s, that weighs 350 lbs and has a 72" 4:3 image on it, has 49.000 hours on it, and is going strong. I hadn't touched it in over 5 years, save for last weekend when I pulled the tubes to defungus them. That took an hour and $25 worth of parts. CRT simply gives a different image than an LCD, plasma or LED TV. The masses have been told by the manufacturers that a digital image is the 'real' thing. It's far from it IMHO. Colors are overprocessed and oversaturated. Some like that, I don't.

DJ Dee, I think your comment above is equally ignorant. It`s fine if you like the digital image, but don`t rain all over the CRT image. I won`t even sit here on my soapbox arguing that the image is better. I will say that it`s different. I personally prefer it, and am still selling lots of CRTs, about 50% to HT owners, and 50% into the commercial/industrial market.

My own HT is about to get a renovation this summer, and I hope to have two 9" projectors hanging by the fall. While I won't use the HT a lot, maybe 200 hours a year, guaranteed that both sets will still be hanging there in 10 years, whereas most digital owners will have gone through at least one projector due to failure.

I used to stand yelling on my soapbox defending CRT, and there's many posts in the archives here that do just that. smile.gif At this point, it is indeed pointless arguing. I personally will take a well set up high end CRT over a digital any day, and still have customers running 20+ year old CRT projectors like the Sony 12XX. It's a chassis that simply won't die. I also personally wouldn't spend the time or money to retube one at this point. I'd get a different, higher end CRT.

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post #8 of 57 Old 02-11-2014, 11:16 AM
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Curt Palme god luck smile.gif
Fun when someone have interest of selling comment.
hehe

And NO knowledge of what happened the last 10 years in digital PJ.
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post #9 of 57 Old 02-11-2014, 12:27 PM
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there's definitely at least one person in this thread talking out of their butt-hole and it's not Curt

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post #10 of 57 Old 02-11-2014, 12:42 PM
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Hehe look whos talking.
I feel sorry for you, don't you think he can answer for him self? Hehe
He started it I just say fact and confronts him, we are not on the same page. And I dont care just fun.
This discussion was over a long time a go.
Get rude, just prove me more right.
I smell CRT fan boy hehe
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post #11 of 57 Old 02-11-2014, 03:51 PM
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It's not even worth responding to DJ Dee. That's why I got out of the nightclub/DJing industry.
Brian Hampton likes this.

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post #12 of 57 Old 02-11-2014, 04:40 PM
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Well Guys

"the Bomb" just found another target.........VideoGon is gone

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post #13 of 57 Old 02-11-2014, 11:01 PM
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There we go, so you know how to strike back curt nice. God one to👏 that tok a long time to dig out I think.
The fact is the same if you try to be funny, you all find this out some day.
To bad that one day in the future you all gonna say **** that Dj dee guy was right.
I'm off . Enjoy SD 👍
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post #14 of 57 Old 02-12-2014, 07:23 AM
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"This is the age of knowing what you're made of"

-Viagra commercial.

Somehow relevant.

My short view- Technology made a wrong turn when it left behind CRT. I have a friend who still prefers his desktop CRT monitor to LCD. Analog brings things to life and they look alive and natural. Most Speakers are still analog. It's fine for most of the delivery to be digital, converting to analog in the end can result in natural life like reproduction.
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post #15 of 57 Old 02-12-2014, 07:58 AM
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We talk projektor a not monitors. And nature like do not exist compare to digital PJ.
CRT PJ Way to soft and unsharp for HD material. For Bluray that we watch.
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post #16 of 57 Old 02-12-2014, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post

We talk projektor a not monitors. And nature like do not exist compare to digital PJ.
CRT PJ Way to soft and unsharp for HD material. For Bluray that we watch.

Well, we can agree to dis-agree. I had many CRT front projectors. The natural life like look of CRT is not my imagination. I experienced it with CRT FP and I can still experience it with other types of CRT.

I have had a digital projector for 5 years now... it's much easier but not without it's own little issues.

I miss my CRTs but I'm not going back to them. I just happen to believe they may have been the best that ever there was. Sometimes convince wins... often actually.
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post #17 of 57 Old 02-12-2014, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

It's not even worth responding to DJ Dee. That's why I got out of the nightclub/DJing industry.

I see this now. It's not just the broken english.... There is more to it.

DJ Dee ... I shouldn't provoke you but,... have you seen HD on CRT? .... 1080p on CRT?... It does exist and looks fantastic. Some people know this even if they use digital display of all types all day long these days.
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post #18 of 57 Old 02-13-2014, 06:17 AM
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Have you seen hi end Crt,a marquee 9500 LC ultra HD or cine 9, or 909 side by side with source blue ray 1080p on these, side by side with jvcx500 /Sony vw1000es
You can't have, and newer will I think. And I have Then you understand me.
Does not matter, CRT is ok and fun to adjust.


A lot of writing errors in the first, iPhone correcting poor, sorry hehe
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post #19 of 57 Old 02-13-2014, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim in Phoenix View Post

Well Guys

"the Bomb" just found another target.........VideoGon is gone
wow that sucks, I still used that site once in a while. I've contacted audiogon, last time this happened they fixed it, hopefully they do so again. : (

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post #20 of 57 Old 02-13-2014, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post

Have you seen hi end Crtt the marquee 9500 LC ultra HD or cine 9, or 909 side by side with 1080p on these side by side on jvcx500 /Sony vw1000es
You can't. Then you understand me. I have.

I don't think that's the key to understanding you, I really don't.

I had a high end CRT FP running 1080p. I use LCOS now but in my opinion CRT was the very best.

Either way, ... you're aggressive stance against CRT makes zero sense, did that ever occur to you?... so like Curt said,... there's really no point in responding to you about it.

It's like you're afraid someone may still have and love a CRT somewhere ...

-Brian
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post #21 of 57 Old 02-14-2014, 02:38 AM
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LOL you guys live in the Stone Age keep it upp lol
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post #22 of 57 Old 02-14-2014, 09:08 AM
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I am kinda glad that the crt died and the digital projectors took over.

Because me and many others could get very affordable crt-projectors, that we never could otherwise get.

And that very good digital projectors came out, that have a msrp that a new crt(if they still were produced) could never match.

I know live in a small studio apartment in the city with a fully calibrated JVC projector. Before that I owned a Barco Cine 9.
I dont miss the Barco - it had a fantastic picture. But I think the JVC is better, but that is just my subjective opinon. And
convenience have of course its impact.

PS! If the JVC Lcos with high contrast hadnt come out, I would probaly still have crt.

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post #23 of 57 Old 02-14-2014, 11:42 AM
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You are kind and correct.
Me to.smile.gif
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post #24 of 57 Old 02-19-2014, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Johnny View Post

I am kinda glad that the crt died and the digital projectors took over. Because me and many others could get very affordable crt-projectors, that we never could otherwise get.

Mostly true. Though there were surplus and decommissioned (used) CRTs available at affordable prices to hobbyists long before digitals 'took over'. And their build-quality and reliability meant Used didn't have the negative impact it would have otherwise.

Quote:
And that very good digital projectors came out, that have a MSRP that a new crt (if they still were produced) could never match.

Another often overlooked point!

Quote:
I know live in a small studio apartment in the city with a fully calibrated JVC projector. Before that I owned a Barco Cine 9. I don't miss the Barco - it had a fantastic picture. But I think the JVC is better, but that is just my subjective opinion. And convenience have of course its impact... If the JVC Lcos with high contrast hadn't come out, I would probably still have crt.

I respect that. And no one could say you're wrong. Any reasonable person wouldn't even try.

But DJ Dee is stirring up trouble here by his incendiary commentary, like "Enjoy your SD". Which is bullsh!t, plain and simple. What I don't understand is why anyone is responding to him. It's not possible to have an intelligent discussion with someone with such extreme bias. Unfortunately, they exist on both sides of the 'fence'. A little respect goes a long way.

- Tim
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post #25 of 57 Old 02-19-2014, 07:04 AM
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But DJ Dee is stirring up trouble here by his incendiary commentary, like "Enjoy your SD". Which is bullsh!t, plain and simple. What I don't understand is why anyone is responding to him. It's not possible to have an intelligent discussion with someone with such extreme bias. Unfortunately, they exist on both sides of the 'fence'. A little respect goes a long way.[/quote]

I said that after much bulshit talk from different people, and intelligent discussion !! That should be about fact not fantasy. Even on a CRT forum. And my statements are based on pure fact 100%

If some like CRT they like CRT if someone like digital they like digital. And like said if not the high contrast on digital PJ today And allot more that comes with it, I also would prefer CRT.
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post #26 of 57 Old 02-19-2014, 11:25 PM
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I never owned a CRT front projector, so I have no idea what they would look like. My only CRT experience has been with direct view sets. I always bought the high end monitors. The last CRT I ever owned was a Sony 34" WEGA 16x9 set that weighed more than I do.

Despite all the good points, there were two things that really bugged me about CRT technology. One was geometric distortion. I never owned a CRT set in my life that produced straight lines from top to bottom, or side to side. There was always bending somewhere in the image and it just drove me crazy! The other was blooming. Any time there was an explosion, or an extremely bright scene, the image would "breathe".

I'd be curious to learn if those anomalies still plague even the highest end CRT projectors.
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post #27 of 57 Old 02-20-2014, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgrele View Post

I never owned a CRT front projector, so I have no idea what they would look like. My only CRT experience has been with direct view sets. I always bought the high end monitors. The last CRT I ever owned was a Sony 34" WEGA 16x9 set that weighed more than I do.

Despite all the good points, there were two things that really bugged me about CRT technology. One was geometric distortion. I never owned a CRT set in my life that produced straight lines from top to bottom, or side to side. There was always bending somewhere in the image and it just drove me crazy! The other was blooming. Any time there was an explosion, or an extremely bright scene, the image would "breathe".

I'd be curious to learn if those anomalies still plague even the highest end CRT projectors.


CRT is the best technology for gaming, because of innputlag that is micro seconds, and motion resolution that is pure and simple fantastic on CRT.

The problems that you talk about are mostly adjustments and possibly error on the convergens card.
I had this problem with my Barco also. And I also see this in every 8" and spessialy when the resolution is higher than 720P
Whith the 9" this problem is mostly gone and 1080p works fine.
About the blooming can't say, have not seen that on all my CRTs at least how you describe it. Maybe someone else.
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post #28 of 57 Old 02-20-2014, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post

LOL you guys live in the Stone Age keep it upp lol

I haven't added anyone to my ignore list for quite a while. welcome.

btw - please don't reply. I won't read it. Of course if you feel it'll make you a better person by all means knock yourself out.
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post #29 of 57 Old 02-20-2014, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post

LOL you guys live in the Stone Age keep it upp lol

Hehe wait until someone breaks into your residence and takes your digital toy. My Sony and NEC projectors would take a couple of people to move. Let's
say I'll be dead before my projectors ever give out with new spare CRT's in storage. I still see Sony G90's listed on eBay for above $10K. Like fine wine
someone will want one.

As for digital pictures simple minds like simple pleasures. In the real world what you see is never that sharp unless if your DNA is Superman DNA
which I doubt it is. Digital will never ever match the true blacks of a CRT.

Hehe I couldn't resist.
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post #30 of 57 Old 02-20-2014, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgrele View Post

I never owned a CRT set in my life that produced straight lines from top to bottom, or side to side. There was always bending somewhere in the image and it just drove me crazy!
Other than a test pattern or similar static image you would be hard pressed to see any geometry errors in video or film sources. I'm surprised you had issues with the Sony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgrele View Post

The other was blooming. Any time there was an explosion, or an extremely bright scene, the image would "breathe".
If the CRT had air coupled lenses blooming can be a problem. I believe all high end projection CRTs have liquid coupled lenses.

AJF

No such thing as a stupid question! Well have you got a minute ?
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