Anyone moving on from CRT in 2017? Anyone still interested in the hobby? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 75 Old 05-18-2017, 12:48 AM
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I'm sticking with CRT. I only got into it a few years ago with an NEC 9PG, and currently have a Barco Cine8 Onyx and a BG808s (that I am converting to LC as well and plan to blend them). I'm also looking for a 9 incher at an affordable price in the EU right now, and it's no easy task to find one!

My reasons for sticking it with CRT? The fact that I don't have to buy a whole new projector whenever there's a problem.

Here's my pros and cons. Keep in mind I'm comparing to a projector in the price-range that I got the CRTs for. So say between 300-600 EUR range, IE not a laser based system, just the average HD ready things you can get for around 600 EUR (Good luck finding a native 1080p projector for that price that performs even similar to the CRT).

Cons:
-Yes, setup takes time. Quite a bit of it in fact.
-Yes the limit is at 1080p
-Yes, my 8"-ers are not as sharp as a digital at the same resolution (the blend will fix that though)
-Yes they are huge, and not as simple as putting them on a table and aiming one at a wall
-Yes light output is low compared to digitals

Pros:
-No visible pixels (screen door), and this is the biggest selling point for me
-Black is black
-With colour filtered lenses, colours are much mroe vivid than I've seen any digital do (again not talking about the several thousand dollar new high-end stuff, I'm just not willing to spend that kind of money on a digital set that will die within 3 years tops)
-No 'rainbow' effect
-Build quality is far superior (I still have an old video only Sony that works flawless despite nearing 40 years old at this point) and it can actually be repaired instead of getting replacements for almost the same price as a new projector.)

In short, at the same price, I could not buy a better digital, and even if I could, I would not want to. The explanation? RoHS. For those of you who don't know, RoHS (Restriction of Hazardous Substances) is the standard that limits the use of heavy metals and all sorts of hazardous substances (like lead) in electronics. In short, it is the excuse for manufacturing E-waste instead of lasting electronics. You guys in the US don't have this, but everything that is made in the EU or made for use in the EU has it. When you buy a 6000 EUR projector, and have to spend 3000 EUR on complete new electronics for it every other year, well... I just don't want any of that. I'd rather make toilet paper from my money. At least that'd get some use

On a more serious note, RoHS for example doesn't allow the use of lead in solder. Lead is what made solder flexible. Without it, it is literally fragile and breaks and snaps. It is the reason behind all the consoles breaking their own processors, IE RROD, YLOD. The simple fact that with digital projectors lead-free solder, sub-miniature (IE short-lived) capactitors and heat are all neatly packed up in a small casing, is a recipe for repeated failures.

Admittedly for those not qualified in electronics, a CRT is a daunting task, and even the smallest failure will be a pain to fix, but for those who know their way around a soldering iron, the bang for the buck is with CRT, now that the prices are dropping, even moreso than in the past.

If you can point me to a 4K capable projector that I can get used for 600 EUR and will last me more than three years of use, point me in the right direction.
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post #62 of 75 Old 05-18-2017, 05:57 PM
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RoHS is really about as stupid as putting seatbelts and airbags on a horse. The regulators that came up with that IDIOTIC idea failed
to understand that once lead gets exposed to the environment, it rapidly passivates, forming a protective oxide layer on it that basically seals it away from the environment unless it is mechanically disturbed or the passivated oxide layer is stripped by chemical means.

To this day there are active lead lined aqueducts that were made during the days of the Roman Empire, in Italy, which are still in use
and still carry drinking water and lead contamination levels read below acceptable minimums as long as the lead ducts have not been damaged recently. And they're THOUSANDS of years old.

Additionally, the lack of lead causes tin whisker formation (we've been fighting for a cure for that without the benefit of lead for years) which makes electronics short themselves out. We've lost satellites to this problem. The usage of lead free solder is PROHIBITED, at least in the US, in electronic equipment to be used by our armed services.

The threat is dramatically overstated, and the environmental concerns raised by having to recycle FAILED electronics which failed early
and rapidly due to RoHS compliance requirements far outstrips the realistic concerns that would be associated with longer lasting electronics that do contain a small quantity of lead.

I guess those restrictions mean I would not be able to ship a G90 or Marquee to you, if I had one available at the right price? Is that right?
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post #63 of 75 Old 05-18-2017, 11:44 PM
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No, not at all. RoHS only applies to new equipment.

The biggest problem is the transport price across the Atlantic and customs and taxes.

I know, as I have imported 6 Marquee 9500 to Denmark.

What is a home theater without good sound??
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post #64 of 75 Old 05-19-2017, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmjohnson View Post

I guess those restrictions mean I would not be able to ship a G90 or Marquee to you, if I had one available at the right price? Is that right?
Yes and no. As a business getting a new piece of equipment, I would not be able to import it. As a private person getting a used bit of equipment, it's okay. As long as it's not 'store-bought'. Soon as there is a bill of sale, they will look for RoHS compliance. What's weird is despite that I can still buy leaded solder locally, and if you only buy raw electronic components (say capacitors) noone really cares whether they're compliant. It is really an excuse to generate E-waste and 'spur up' industry. More failed crap means more new crap that will fail soon.

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post #65 of 75 Old 05-21-2017, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by koldby View Post
No, not at all. RoHS only applies to new equipment.

The biggest problem is the transport price across the Atlantic and customs and taxes.

I know, as I have imported 6 Marquee 9500 to Denmark.
How much to get one over With tax?

AKA Diddern on some other forums, Here at AVS always been DJ Dee :)
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post #66 of 75 Old 05-21-2017, 08:12 AM
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How much to get one over With tax?
That depends very much on how you send them. I got my 6 by sea freight, so the price pr. Marque was about $100,-.
Then there were payment for packing, local pickup in USA and road freight to the harbour.
If sent by air and only one the price is around $500,-

Tax depends on the price you payed for the pj in USA.
In Denmark you pay about 5% customs of the PJ price + freight and then 25% tax of the Pj price + freight + customs.

Hope this answers your question.

What is a home theater without good sound??
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post #67 of 75 Old 05-21-2017, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by koldby View Post
That depends very much on how you send them. I got my 6 by sea freight, so the price pr. Marque was about $100,-.
Then there were payment for packing, local pickup in USA and road freight to the harbour.
If sent by air and only one the price is around $500,-

Tax depends on the price you payed for the pj in USA.
In Denmark you pay about 5% customs of the PJ price + freight and then 25% tax of the Pj price + freight + customs.

Hope this answers your question.
Thanx
About the same here I think 25% tax on value and shipping.
Dollar is very high now compared to before.
And shipping and tax will cost more than the CRT it selves. So not worth it ,if not price is under 300 dollar. Because then the real price will be around 1000 dollar. And that is around max what I would pay, for a 100% perfect 9 inch. With around the same runtime on the tubes. And not over 1-3000 hours.

Last edited by Dj Dee; 05-21-2017 at 09:37 AM.
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post #68 of 75 Old 05-21-2017, 08:57 AM
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Thanx
About the same here I think 25% tax on value and shipping.
Dollar is very high now compared to before.
And shipping and tax will cost more than the CRT it selves. So not worth it ,if not price is under 300 dollar. Because then the real price will me around 1000 dollar. And that is around max what I would pay, for a 100% perfect 9 inch. With around the same runtime on the tubes. And not over 1-3000 hours.
If you only want one and want it sent by air- yes, that is too expensive even in my eyes..

What is a home theater without good sound??
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post #69 of 75 Old 05-21-2017, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
Thanx
About the same here I think 25% tax on value and shipping.
Dollar is very high now compared to before.
And shipping and tax will cost more than the CRT it selves. So not worth it ,if not price is under 300 dollar. Because then the real price will me around 1000 dollar. And that is around max what I would pay, for a 100% perfect 9 inch. With around the same runtime on the tubes. And not over 1-3000 hours.
I think most of the CRTs have been liquidated by now. You would probably have a hard time finding one in good condition let alone one that was NIB.

Current projector - JVC RS25 and Marantz VP15S1
Future projector - pre-ordered new JVC from AVScience
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post #70 of 75 Old 05-21-2017, 10:06 AM
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I think most of the CRTs have been liquidated by now. You would probably have a hard time finding one in good condition let alone one that was NIB.
I think its possible to find good CRTs today, and if I do find one I might play but for my price limit. But you might have to pay way more than what it is worth today. And if you buy a CRT you must se the money you paid for it as loss. But for most of the enthusiasts this is a hobby and a cool one, and if you have a lot of CRTs laying around you know the time glass is almost empty and will do anything to promote CRT and drag down anything else. And in a year or to you might have to pay for someone to pick it up.
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post #71 of 75 Old 05-21-2017, 10:38 AM
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True and well said.

You can find used CRTs all over the place. Some in very good condition. The CRTs that some of these guys have bought are from liquidation sources. I think most of those have been sold by now.
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Current projector - JVC RS25 and Marantz VP15S1
Future projector - pre-ordered new JVC from AVScience
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post #72 of 75 Old 05-21-2017, 11:41 AM
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... But for most of the enthusiasts this is a hobby and a cool one, and if you have a lot of CRTs laying around you know the time glass is almost empty and will do anything to promote CRT and drag down anything else...
Hey I don't really care, the less people want CRT, the more projectors/parts are left cheaper. But as I said, show me a native 1080p or even 720p projector that you can get used for $600 with a bulb that will last more than 8000 hours, and actually electronics that will last half as long.
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post #73 of 75 Old 05-21-2017, 01:53 PM
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Hey I don't really care, the less people want CRT, the more projectors/parts are left cheaper. But as I said, show me a native 1080p or even 720p projector that you can get used for $600 with a bulb that will last more than 8000 hours, and actually electronics that will last half as long.


CRT also have limitations with lifetime on tubes, and parts. And actually to buy a bulb is cheaper than changing one tube or a replacementcard And if something goes wrong could be very expensive.
But 8000 hours on a bulb is hard, and I don't think a point trying. But have seen many JVCs and Sonys and Epson that have 4000+ hours on the lamp and still working.
I would personally change a bulb after around 2000 hours, and can easy spare 500 dollars a year to have the ultimate picture. That is 1,39 dollar pr day. I will not go bankrupt


I just got a new JVC now and shows 50 hours on the counter. And with my viewing I don't have to change lamp in the next 4 years. Then my JVC is old and new tec is in the air. And also got a spar lamp that I might never open.


But if the goal is a 500-600 dollar for a PJ and "new too projectors" I would not go for a CRT today. To much work to get a descent picture, big, heavy, more adjusting than watching film, heats to much and so on.
But you can get a great CRT today for 100-1000 dollars but need to have the time for it, and understand what you getting your self into. A CRT is not a plug and play device.

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post #74 of 75 Old 05-21-2017, 03:26 PM
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The thing is, right now, top-of-the-line 8" CRT sets can be had for very cheap, and even with moderately worn tubes they will outlive anything you can get in the pricerange. Even brand new tubes can be had at pretty decent prices if you trawl the internet.

You are right though, it's not plug and play, and you do need to know what you are doing. But if you know what you're doing, and can spare two days for a full setup and then 2 hours every half a year to do some touchup, it's the best bang for the buck right now.

But let's not get expensive repairs in here, while on a CRT today you can get a replacement circuit board for virtually any part under $80, with digitals your only option is factory new, which in case of an expensive machine will run you more money than your used projector is worth. And this is my main gripe with digitals. Once something other then the bulb goes, you're better off just getting a new one.

(As a sidenote, 4k is impressive, but not the same pricerange. I bought a decent Dell 4k monitor earlier this year (actually cost more than any of my CRT projectors that I own), and on a 24" screen, that is impressive. That is the perfect pixel density IMO. You literally cannot see pixels, yet the image is as sharp as it gets. For a projector though, I feel it is still too low a resolution to warrant the amount of money they cost. Plus there's not a lot of video material out there that is 4k. Once we take the next step (16k?), that's when I'll start taking interest in such high res for actual projection.)

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CRT also have limitations with lifetime on tubes, and parts. And actually to buy a bulb is cheaper than changing one tube or a replacementcard And if something goes wrong could be very expensive...
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post #75 of 75 Old 05-21-2017, 10:42 PM
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In my eyes there is no such thing as a top-of-the-line 8" CRT in 2017 then If you favor todays specifications, we all know that, even CRT owners. 8 inch you get for free today.
And on a cheep DLP you can see screen door close to screen. If you sit 1-2 meters form a 106 inch. I sit 2,7 meters from a 110 inch screen and cant see pixels at all even on my kids Epson 9300 that have around 60% fill rate. On my new JVC RS520 you have 97% something fill rate and that is more or less CRT. Even at 2 cm from screen you cant see the pixels, then on 4K display or a new e-shift

And if you have a budget 1080P PJ for 200-500 dollar "yes" get a new one, the bulb is more expensive. But around 6000-10000 dollar I will buy a new bulb if you are not Bill Gates.
And just so you know CRTs then the tubes usually don't last more than 2000-3000 hours if they are used heavy, and if you favor quality. But when you buy a 20-60 dollar PJ you wont see it and wont mind, and 8 inch is not for the big boys
I'm shore that you and some others might be very happy with a 8" I would not be. And if you wait some time longer,,, 9" will be for the same price, then even a better deal

First we need to get 8K before 16K
I'm confident that projectors will go more and more over to big flat screen TVs in the future.
And projector will mainly be in the big big home cinemas.

AKA Diddern on some other forums, Here at AVS always been DJ Dee :)

Last edited by Dj Dee; 05-22-2017 at 01:10 PM.
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