Tim Martin's Got a WINNER BLENDING TWO 9" CRTs Side-By-Side!!! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 216 Old 07-22-2003, 03:01 PM
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Lifter,

I have two of the graphics cards that 9x media lists, but they are totally useless for one of the two main reasons to have a system such as this: scaling HDTV across two projectors. All you can do is stretch a windows desktop across two (or more) monitors with one of those cards, but they do not allow for a blend zone and possibly more importantly, they do not allow for the ability to capture an HD image and split it into two halves and scale it.


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post #92 of 216 Old 07-22-2003, 04:13 PM
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Well, your right about the no blend zone. But if you could input an HD signal into your PC (i.e. the H3DII) then I don't see why it wouldn't work. But yeah, w/o the blend zone it wouldn't work well on CRTs.

Sean
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post #93 of 216 Old 07-22-2003, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tim
Say Art

With a throw distance of 2/3 that of one projector on a given screen size, you might go larger on the screen and still need to move the projectors closer. You need to determine if you have noticeable tube wear on your tubes that might call for new tubes, can your pjs do 64khz effortlessly, and will your ceiling accomodate other mounting positions, maybe closer than what you use now. Also, do your projectors allow for green convergence-on-incoming-images like test patterns.
Closer would actually be better. Yes, my PJs converge on green ( really a must for stacking) but their sweet spot is 45khz. My thought was this product and two 9" CRTs anyway.

Art


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post #94 of 216 Old 07-22-2003, 07:53 PM
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What happens if you want to watch 4:3 material? Just run with one projector?

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post #95 of 216 Old 07-22-2003, 09:47 PM
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I have 2 ECP 4500s... both in good shape and stable... Kinda makes you wonder....

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post #96 of 216 Old 07-22-2003, 10:11 PM
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with 4:3, you can move it to either side or leave it in the middle and have a constant height setup

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post #97 of 216 Old 07-22-2003, 10:19 PM
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I have a question that has been bothering me about this system.

With the tube brightness feathering that will be going on in order to blend the inner third of the image, won't the longer term tube wear be uneven as the 'outer' two thirds of the image will be running at full brightness/contrast?

In the long run will this then compromise the ability to maintain an accurate white & colour balance across the screen?

As I see it, the inner third of the tube is only carrying a smaller proportion of the brightness/contrast load for any given tube, and the phosphors will eventually reflect this.

Tim, any comments?

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post #98 of 216 Old 07-22-2003, 10:26 PM
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Hey, I just happened onto this thread, and the technology looks very cool. And no, I'm not here to ask if it can be done with digital projectors :)

Seeing the screen shot with the blending turned off, and the resulting hotspot in the center, gave me an idea: perhaps you could modify the blending software to do some sort of hotspot/color shift compensation as well. Supplying this kind of compensation in the blending hardware might potentially allow for the use of a higher-gain screen than might otherwise be selected, while still achieving a nice uniform brightness across the screen.

Heck, this feature alone might be worth using a box like this with a single projector.

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post #99 of 216 Old 07-22-2003, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lifter
Well, your right about the no blend zone. But if you could input an HD signal into your PC (i.e. the H3DII) then I don't see why it wouldn't work. But yeah, w/o the blend zone it wouldn't work well on CRTs.
That won't happen. The H3DII will take an HD signal, but it just runs it through the Faroudja 2300 chip and then out. It will not send it to the PCI bus of your computer so that it would be able to hit the graphics card. There is WAY too much data to send across the computer's bus.

The only way to use a PC for this right now is for decoding the computer can do. Right now, that is DVD and HD transport streams, which were compressed HD feeds - not the uncompressed data, from either an HDTV tuner card that records the stream or from HD-DVD like the Terminator 2 WM9 file.

You cannot get a PC to split HDNET's live signal right now. Perhaps with a 169time modded receiver, the AVX1, a firewire capture card and then a device to delay the audio stream to make up for the video processing that will likely take several milliseconds to run. Even then, I doubt you could do it reliably in real time.


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post #100 of 216 Old 07-23-2003, 02:26 AM
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Huh. Well, I've lurked on the H3DII forum a little, and from what I gather, the card itself can output to the PCI bus just like the H3D, but currently the drivers don't allow it when the HD aux card is connected because the PCI bus is two slow. I do believe however, that the card is capable once a faster PCI bus becomes common (I think there's something called PCI-X that's like 200 MB/s). Not sure, just going off a vague memory from skimming through hundreds of posts.

What I do remember distctly is that this was a planned feature for the H3DII several months ago, before it was released.

The reason I know a little about this is because I was trying to figure out a way to get an HD signal into a laptop several months ago. Yeah, I looked into the 169time idea quite a bit too, and I agree that it probably wouldn't be reliable.

Anyways, it's a little OT so I'll shut up.

EDIT: PCI-X can do up to 1 Gigabyte per second, which is a lot more than you need for uncompressed HD video.

Sean
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post #101 of 216 Old 07-23-2003, 07:45 AM
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Guys!

The question involved uneven tube wear at the far edge of each blend zone where there is little drive level. Well, with little drive level there will be little evidence of uneven wear! One would just tweak the gamma ramp of the blender occasionally; uneven wear might be more visible using one projector with blend off, but we aren't going to toss the whole concept just for that.

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post #102 of 216 Old 07-23-2003, 08:15 AM
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Lifter, the output to the PCI bus is strictly for NTSC captures off of S-Video, composite, SDI or component. I didn't read anywhere about being able to send uncompressed HD from the HD-AUX to the PCI bus. The simple fact that it could then become a tool for defeating HDCP is enough to ensure that it never is possible, as Immersive doesn't have the resources to stay in business against the level of lawsuits the MPAA would put on them just for having an off chance possibility of bypassing HDCP.


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post #103 of 216 Old 07-23-2003, 08:24 AM
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Tim, the uneven wear isn't where the blending is, except compared to the other half of the tube. The uneven wear is that one side will be worn because it is driven full power while the other side goes down to almost completely new at the other end.

While it won't matter if you keep both projectors in such a system, it does matter when it comes time to split them up, as you will almost certainly have to replace all the tubes to run them as a single projector.

You could alleviate this problem a bit by rotating projectors, but even then, you will have more wear in the center, as dead center of the projector will have 100% power running all the time, while the edges would be 100% for half the time and 10%-90% power the other half.


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post #104 of 216 Old 07-23-2003, 08:49 AM
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Guys!

Mr. P is correct in that the driven part will wear faster; however, since the load is spread across two projectors, then conservative contrast levels will suffice even for screens as wide as 111" that we tested with here on around a 1.0-gain fabric; higher gain fabrics would allow for higher apparent output or even larger widths and good tube longevity also. :D Any CRT user will want to look at the long-term and budget for eventual tube replacement regardless of having one projector or several.

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post #105 of 216 Old 07-23-2003, 11:05 AM
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This may just be another variation on a question asked earlier by Mr. Poindextor, but...

The current system, with an overlap region 640 wide (50%) is ideally suited to 16:9 HDTV sources (two 4:3 tubes combining into 6:3, or 2.0). I'm curious what the impact of narrowing the overlap to 320 (25%) would be (combining into 7:3), thus broadening the native AR to fit 2.35 material.

What would the downside be? Or is there even any, with respect to the blending process? And the reason the 50% overlap was selected was to optimize the 16:9 scenario?

- Tim

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post #106 of 216 Old 07-23-2003, 11:16 AM
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Say Tim

Yes, they explained it to me that 50% overlap is optimum for 16:9; blend should be variable in the system so a smaller blend zone may do 2.35 better; not sure where that leaves us on 16:9 though, maybe it could be positioned in the middle somehow.

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post #107 of 216 Old 07-23-2003, 03:21 PM
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Tim,

i agree that the tube wear due to uneven drive levels across the tubes is not reason enought to scrap the project, but I'd feel that potential purchasers will need to keep in mind the fact that as the tubes age, it will be more and more difficult to maintain the balance, even if you are tweaking gamma levels.

As I see it there will be an even more apparent need for periodic calibration of the system by knowledgeable personnel as in this system the difference would become apparent to the naked eye more quickly than in a conventional system where the even wear fools the eye into accepting incorrect white/colour values.


- Adam

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post #108 of 216 Old 07-23-2003, 04:00 PM
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Say Adam

The answer there might be to run a ramped white test pattern opposite of the roll-off curve for an hour a week to even things up; my belief is that at the points where you don't run much output off the phosphor, it's relative freshness is of less concern since it outputs little no matter what.

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post #109 of 216 Old 07-23-2003, 04:43 PM
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tim, you would not run much output at those points on the phosphor, but if you are running only 50% on one and 50% on the other, they add up to the same amount of output light. These would still have 50% of the wear in other locations of the phosphor. When the tubes are new, it wouldn't matter, but there is a chance that you would need to replace the tubes sooner due to uneven wear. Just a thought to keep in mind when using this system and looking for any possible problems. While no system is perfect, I am sure this system's benefits would outweigh its drawbacks. Still, it is worth knowing what those drawbacks may or may not be.

Unfortunately, it might take years of watching something like this to discover it. I will volunteer to be the guinea pig. Put it up at my house and I will watch movies on it for 2-3 years and give you a call to come over and look at the tubes. I won't even charge you for the labor I spend on the couch with the remote control. ;)


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post #110 of 216 Old 07-23-2003, 04:54 PM
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Tim,
E-Tech field consultants for this will certainly be needed. Just let me know.
:D



Art


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post #111 of 216 Old 07-23-2003, 06:20 PM
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Guys!

Nice to know we have volunteers standing by, ready to do exhaustive testing :D

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post #112 of 216 Old 07-24-2003, 05:35 AM
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tim replied,
> blend should be variable in the system so a smaller blend zone may do 2.35 better; not sure where that leaves us on 16:9 though, <

Thanks for the info on the potential for a narrower blend zone to accomodate 2.35 ARs. As far as where it would leave us on 16:9... the same place as you'd be with the current system on 4:3 or 1.66 AR sources: pillarboxing on the sides.

Essentially the configuration optimized for 2.35 would be a constant-height setup, with narrower ARs using less of the horizontal field. Makes masking easier, and is more "cinematic". With the setup optimized for 16:9 (admittedly, perhaps more of your potential customers, due to the increasing availability of HDTV source material), you'd still need 4-way masking, and the purists would stilll not be as happy that 2.35 material is smaller than 16:9 material.

- Tim

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post #113 of 216 Old 07-25-2003, 01:30 PM
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Guys!

Just to update the situation, we understand that Folsom management will be conducting meetings next week; the possible production of DisplayPro HD to be a prime topic of these discussions. Anyone involved with a Home Theater dealership and having interest in the system as a Reseller is invited to call or e.mail me; I will act as liason to Folsom's sales team.

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post #114 of 216 Old 07-28-2003, 03:46 AM
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Say Tim,
will you be hosting another demo?

It's all about the performance... Got Marquee!

 

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post #115 of 216 Old 07-28-2003, 01:01 PM
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Guys!

Folsom has decided to move ahead!!!!!!

Tim,

We had a meeting this morning and it looks like we are going to start moving forward on this product. I have attached a spec sheet for your reference. It is the same one I gave you in Arizona, but in a soft copy.

I think we are looking at 90-120 days before we have a working product.

I will keep you posted as things progress. When do your customers need their
units???

Paul F. Dumpel
Video Product Specialist

Folsom Research, Inc.
Tel: 916.859.2500 Fax: 916.859.2515
Cell: 916.996.6867
www.folsom.com
paul.dumpel@folsom.com

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post #116 of 216 Old 07-28-2003, 01:05 PM
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Art,

If you are on-board with the blend unit & willing to show-off your latest toy, I would love to make the trip to check out your set-up.
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post #117 of 216 Old 07-28-2003, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Tim, congrats on gettin' Folsom to commercially manufacture this product. Now if I could just make some $$$ to stop wishin' about it.

This is a fantastic product which totally ups the video ante and makes it that much harder for digital to ever equal CRT picture quality. Now CRT won't ever be the easy setup and maintain as digital projectors, and but now CRT can give you the biggie picture as can digital but CRT will look so much more real and natural.

I predict that Tim Martin and Folsom will go down in the video annals on this one!!!! And that some high end home theaters in prominent magazines will feature two CRTs with the Folsom in years to follow!!!@@@

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:

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post #118 of 216 Old 07-28-2003, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bentson
Art,

If you are on-board with the blend unit & willing to show-off your latest toy, I would love to make the trip to check out your set-up.
When I get to a point that another HT meet at my house is worth the trip for folks , I'll post and you are certainly welcome.


Art


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post #119 of 216 Old 07-29-2003, 10:40 AM
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Say Mike

I have requested another loan of the ScreenPro/BlendPro setup and have not heard back yet, demos in September might be helpful in recruiting some dealers for the DisplayPro unit before it gets released; we can at least show the image quality to be expected.

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post #120 of 216 Old 07-30-2003, 06:23 AM
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Just got a blurb from a company called MAXVISION www.maxvision.com which uses a NVIDIA Quadro FX 3000 video card that has an application called POWERWALL that will allow you to digitally project from two projectors with varying overlap and blending that will be shown a CEDIA. No price mentioned.
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