Tim Martin's Got a WINNER BLENDING TWO 9" CRTs Side-By-Side!!! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 216 Old 07-10-2003, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
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***NOTE: I CHANGED TITLE TO THIS THREAD ON 7-15-03 AFTER WITNESSING HOW DARN GOOD THIS TWO 9" CRT SIDE-BY-STACK REALLY IS!!!@@@

I first met Tim gee, going on four years ago now was it?? He had recently moved here to Scottsdale, Arizona - and he did a great demo of an Electrohome 9500 CRT at my place, as well as doing a fan mod to seriously cut down the noise. It was slow sellin' at first, refurbishing Electrohome CRTs at "affordable" prices - but over the years, Tim has become known as THE MAN when it comes to Electrohome refurbished CRTs.

The word has got out that hopefully this Sunday, Tim will being doing his second double 9" CRT stack, this time even better than the last one. Something about having a new device to split the signal which I think means will allow Tim to have each of the two CRT projectors fill up 1/2 the screen and line up wonderfully - sort of like the 'ol Cinerama. But Tim needs to come over and let us know exactly what this is and what he's doing.

And Electrohome circuit board whiz Mike Parker is coming to town for this, too (as he did last time).

Should be a real winner. Anyone coming to Phoenix in the midst of a hotter than hell summer for this???

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #2 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 12:16 AM
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Steve,
I think that it is on Monday and Tuesday...at least that is when I am parking cars, working the consession stand, and shamelessly hawking souvenirs.

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post #3 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 05:46 AM
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All I can say is I wish you guys were closer! That is something I would love to see...Tim and Mike in the same room doing a CRt setup/mod/whatever you want to call it. I bet it will be a sight to behold!!!

Thanks a million...Good luck...Let us know... Whichever is appropriate this time! jmwj03 at hotmail dot com
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post #4 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 06:34 AM
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Guys!

We are showing 16:9 HDTV and other video sources spread across two 9" CRT projectors on a 111"-wide screen! Look on pages two and three for digital pictures showing the hardware used and some screenshots too!

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post #5 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 07:26 AM
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It's scary enough just having Parker in a room yet alone Tim. Of course getting Parker to actually show up in the room is entirely a different issue. :)

The ultimate in horror shows would be having KBK, Chris Stephens, Mike Parker, and Tim in the same room. Naw throw in Joe Kane and ...

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post #6 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 08:37 AM
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I would like to know what device he would have that splits the signal into a left half and a right half! If you used no overlap, a 16x9 image on a 4:3 phosphor only uses 75% of the raster area. A 2.35:1 image only uses only 56.7% of the raster area.

If you have a side by side set-up with each producing half the image in a constant height setup, a 16x9 image would only use 66% of the raster area, but a 2.35:1 image would use up 88% of the raster image.

I would definitely go for a small drop in raster usage for HDTV to get a bigger useage in 'Scope. This device could even be used with 4:3 digital projectors, like my NEC LT150.
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post #7 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I gotta give Tim credit. He's moved into the stratosphere - having a real MOD guy, Mike Parker, who knows how to improve the projector internals; and a real true ISF guy, Michael Hamilton, who really knows that stuff well.

Tim, one idea. Maybe you could pick up cheap black felt from your local fabric store to place for a foot or two around screen edges in your garage as this would help - since no none expects Tim to paint his garage interior black instead of its typical AZ white!!!!

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #8 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 09:34 AM
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Guys!

The system uses full phosphor height and width at 16:9, a bit less on 2.35:1; overlap is employed, confirmation of picture quality is the reason for testing this on two 9" Marquee Ultras on a 111" wide screen. When we know more we will have announcements. :D

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post #9 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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E-X-C-I-T-I-N-G!!!

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #10 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 10:56 AM
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So we all (more or less) know what 2 9" Marquee Ultras would run, but how much is that little splitter box? Just an extra $10k ? :)
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post #11 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 11:03 AM
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Pictures, pictures, and more pictures!!!
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post #12 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 01:28 PM
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One would think that it would be possible to design an HTPC program that could do this on either a dual head video card or on a machine equipped with 2 video cards.
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post #13 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 02:28 PM
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The topic of using two projectors side by side with an overlap zone like Tim is doing came up a few months back here.

The conclusion was that the hardware to this was very expensive, it would be difficult to do it in software with an HTPC of any sort, if not impossible with today's DVD player software and Windows operating system, and that it would take a master to converge and keep stable.

However, given the group that is assembling at Tim's to do this stack, I wouldn't be surprised if they could get it to work well. :D
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post #14 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 02:38 PM
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They overlap in the middle....hum...I guess that means you will have to rotate the projectors ever 1000 hours!

Going to BB means rubbing elbows w/ the Unwashed Masses

No thanks

Netflix for me!
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post #15 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 02:58 PM
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While it would be difficult to do with a PC, think of using an SDI input card like the SDI Silk or H3D. Run a program that would let a video card display, for example, 60% of the image (left or right) and have the exact opposite on the other one. In fact, I think it might be possible already if you have the windows desktop set to be bigger than the screen resolution.

Set the screen resolution to 1024x768, but the desktop to be 1820x1365. Running the video at full DESKTOP resolution would give you a picture that was 1820x768 (give or take - I am doing this in my head). Scroll the desktop so that you get the left 1024 on one video card and the right 1024 on the other. You will have an overlap of 220 pixels x 768 lines.

For digital projectors, the keeping them lined up properly is simple, as they don't drift. Getting them lined up perfectly is trickier, though, because you cannot adjust geometry like you can with CRT.

The question is if you can get the video overlay to scale to a desktop resolution if the display resolution is different.

I don't know what cards can support doing this, but I had an old Matrox card that could do this. I didn't try the overlay with it, though. There is an outside chance that you could get a system patched together for the cost of an HTPC with 2 PCI video cards. It would most certainly not be an easy thing to set up, though - especially if it didn't boot to the exact same settings after a shutdown.
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post #16 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 03:00 PM
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I haven't run 2 projectors side by side, but I've watched movies spanned across two 21" Trinitron monitors. Too much of a gap between them to make it enjoyable (on the monitors), but it DID work.

I used Zoom Player, have done it both under Windows 98 SE, and Windows 2000 Pro. Computer was an AMD Athlon 1333, with 128MB PC2100 DDR RAM, video cards were an ATI Xpert 128 and a Matrox Millenium II.

It's been a while ago, but I don't remember having any difficulty setting it up. You could drive two projectors through their RGB inputs without much work at all!

- David

... when I bought my first pair of CRT projectors, nobody ever told me they worked like rabbits!
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post #17 of 216 Old 07-11-2003, 03:49 PM
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Any chance we will see this tech at CEDIA in sept ?
This would add to the BUZZ around laser projection and offer more to talk about at the AVS party.
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post #18 of 216 Old 07-12-2003, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bruzonsky

Tim, one idea. Maybe you could pick up cheap black felt from your local fabric store to place for a foot or two around screen edges in your garage as this would help - since no none expects Tim to paint his garage interior black instead of its typical AZ white!!!!
Done; and 30% off at Jo Ann Fabrics...... the black garage would make it real hard to see whut I'm working on! :D

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post #19 of 216 Old 07-12-2003, 07:03 PM
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Maybe someone should tell Tim that CRT is dead and LCD/DLP is taking over. Where is QQQ when he is needed?
Steve
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post #20 of 216 Old 07-12-2003, 07:10 PM
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Originally posted by Energeezer
Where is QQQ when he is needed?
Steve
I'm always keeping an eye out over here. History is one of my favorite subjects.
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post #21 of 216 Old 07-12-2003, 07:32 PM
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Energeezer, I was reading this thread with great interest and about to respond with some serious comments until I got yo your post at the end ;)...

Blending projectors is of great interest to me and I look forward to hearing how this experiment works out. The potential advantages of blending are great for both CRT AND digital projectors. Each type of projector faces its own challenges when it comes to blending and most solutions are VERY expensive. I would like to hear more about this blending solution including approximate pricing and who developed it. I tend to be skeptical that it will be achieve acceptable results for a variety of reasons.

So Tim and Mike, are you going to talk about this? Or is this just a big tease?

Are you testing it with digital projectors? In other words, is this just a fun experiment/labor of passion or do you want to sell more than 3 a year?
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post #22 of 216 Old 07-13-2003, 12:56 AM - Thread Starter
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CRT is DEAD for MOST, who have rooms with lights on or lotsa sunlight coming in, installers who luv the ease of digital projectors, and cause CRT maintenance is indeed all too often a real challenge and time consuming.
And of course some digital projectors may allow a wider screen that the best CRT.

On the other hand, my 7" Dwin CRT is in a dedicated, no light/light controlled room with stable temperature 76 to 80 degrees all year long. I rarely need to do touch up convergence, my projector is rock stable.
And CRT turns off the lights like no digital projector can - I cannot live without the fantastic black level. Now I've really tweaked this sucker and kept the picture only 80" wide to get a great and accurate, ECP color filtered lens picture.

Tim's done a great service by refurbishing Electrohome 9" CRTs at relatively affordable prices - and now with Mike Parker board tweaks, and add competent ISFing - and if you have a dedicated light controlled room and keep the picture the proper size, WOW! What a picture. (WOOPS! GOTTA get some $$$$, donations anyone, so Tim will quit nagging me to put in a Electrohome 9" of course tweaked with the Mike Parker mods).

The local newspaper the other day noted that local Motorola is working on carbon fiber nonotube CRT displays that may be one inch thick, that's right, CRTs, for 50 to 80" wide screens at real affordable prices say in about four years. Wouldn't that be wonderful - if they are CRTs like what Tim does now, where the color can be accurate and a chip totally turned off for complete black level??? Could be the RISE of the PHOENIX, the CRT taking over again in a few years. Meanwhile, those of us with the perfectionist video attitude still live for CRT projectors and thanks to Tim for helping so many of us. (And meanwhile, QQQ will continue to sell and install digital projectors - and frankly, if I was in the business, that's what I would do. Not cause they're the best, but they are the most practical and economical in most applications.

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #23 of 216 Old 07-13-2003, 05:28 AM
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Guys!

The splitter/blender equipment cartons arrived yesterday so you have my assurance that this is no tease. Pricing has been suggested in the <$20K range, which makes it worth considering in a high-end home system. I promise full coverage here with pix since I got my Sony CD-500 five megapixel camera; which is an awesome piece of gear for anyone shopping for a camera :D

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post #24 of 216 Old 07-13-2003, 08:56 AM
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Steve
Shheesh. I wuz kiddin. Take a look at my signature.
QQQ
Sometimes you are a hard fish to hook. Was looking forward to reeling you in. Oh well nothing ventured nothing gained.
Will you blend the screendoor or make double screen?
Tim
Keep up the good work and many thanks for the valueable help you have given me re the Marquee.
Steve
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post #25 of 216 Old 07-13-2003, 08:58 AM
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1 more thing. I'll trade ya a 8500 with worn green and blue fo that camera. LOL
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post #26 of 216 Old 07-13-2003, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Energeezer
QQQ
Sometimes you are a hard fish to hook. Was looking forward to reeling you in. Oh well nothing ventured nothing gained.
Will you blend the screendoor or make double screen?
I think you're confusing who is the fisherman and who is the fish.
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post #27 of 216 Old 07-13-2003, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Energeezer
Steve
Shheesh. I wuz kiddin. Take a look at my signature.

Steve
I know. I was joshin' for those digital projector luvers!!!!!

"Doug Winsor" used to troll at some AV Forums as "Steve Bruzonsky"! My home theater at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1158431
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post #28 of 216 Old 07-14-2003, 04:57 AM
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QQQ
There is more than 1 fisherman here.
How about that double screen door. should keep the skeeters out.
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post #29 of 216 Old 07-14-2003, 03:42 PM
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Guys!

E-Tech is pleased to be hosting the Folsom Research DisplayPro HD test session here in Scottsdale, Arizona. The system is actually not a production product but uses circuitry of two other existing Folsom Pro AV products. The ScreenPro unit is being fed RGBHV at 1080i from an RCA DTC100 satellite receiver; the ScreenPro is deinterlacing 1080i and scaling it to 1280 x 1080p and is also drawing two rasters that each represent two-thirds of the image, with 640 pixels being drawn twice to act as a blend zone. The ScreenPro output is fed RGBHV to the BlendPro, which is doing contrast modulation; the idea is to fade the right edge of the left raster into the left edge of the right raster and place 16:9 and 2.35:1 material across all the phosphor of two 9" CRTs. The initial reaction of special guests Mike Parker, Michael Hamilton and myself is that the resulting image of near 360 ANSI lumens is....... Spectacular! More soon, and we hope to post some pictures tonight or tomorrow also. Much thanks to Paul Dumpel and John Orr for taking the time to visit here from Rancho Cordova, California. :D

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post #30 of 216 Old 07-14-2003, 03:44 PM
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Guys!

E-Tech is pleased to be hosting the Folsom Research DisplayPro HD test session here in Scottsdale, Arizona. The system is actually not a production product but uses circuitry of two other existing Folsom Pro AV products. The ScreenPro unit is being fed RGBHV at 1080i from an RCA DTC100 satellite receiver; the ScreenPro is deinterlacing 1080i and scaling it to 1280 x 1080p and is also drawing two rasters that each represent two-thirds of the image, with 640 pixels being drawn twice to act as a blend zone. The ScreenPro output is fed RGBHV to the BlendPro, which is doing contrast modulation; the idea is to fade the right edge of the left raster into the left edge of the right raster and place 16:9 and 2.35:1 material across all the phosphor of two 9" CRTs. The initial reaction of special guests Mike Parker, Michael Hamilton and myself is that the resulting image of near 360 ANSI lumens is....... Spectacular! More soon, and we hope to post some pictures tonight or tomorrow also. The primary circuitry of the two devices will perhaps be offered in one chassis for the Home Theater marketplace for under $17,000, tbd later. Much thanks to Paul Dumpel and John Orr for taking the time to visit here from Rancho Cordova, California. :D

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