Is the CRT dying? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 302 Old 08-12-2003, 09:14 PM
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Artis Tech and filecat13,

A question for you.

I won't argue with you about the merits of projected film. I've never seen it outside of commercial theater exhibition. So I realize that I may not have seen the best of what projected film has to offer.
BUT comparing what I have seen to the picture made by my friend's tweaked to perfection XGLC, I have one observation. I prefer the CRT's rich dark detail. And I don't even find the difference to be very subtle.
The light leaking through the film frame interferes with that. Much in the same way it does with a lamp projector.
Do you disagree?

Bob
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post #182 of 302 Old 08-12-2003, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mp20748
But don't get too excited about the HD2 Bob. Because in another week there'll be another model coming out that'll be an inch better, and it'll probably be $1000.00 less. And Oh, don't forget that by Cedia there'll be at least two more new models out that'll be another inch better, and they won't be the surprise that will be at Cedia. Now after the talk of the new digital projector at this coming Cedia, there will be another digital out three weeks after the show that will also be that much better.
And by the CES show, there will be about fifteen new lamp projectors to come out. I would hate to be the guy who bought lamp projector C and found out that lamp projector E is now better and cheaper.

With CRT you're at the apex that lamp technololgy is aspiring to...

So why waste money!
Sorry, but what a silly AND outright dishonest argument. If Principia Lightworks came out with a laser CRT next week for 10K that had all the advantages of CRT with 10 times the light output, you would be dancing on the rooftops and celebrating that "CRT is alive and well". You would celebrate that CRT was still improving and pronounce that this was proof that there was never a better time to buy CRT. But in the case of digital you argue that the fact they they are improving is a reason not to buy them.

By your reasoning I should never buy another computer because I will suffer buyers remorse because something better will be coming out.

I do agree that used CRT IS an EXCELLENT value (notice how I don't have to be dishonest with the facts to prove my points), versus a new digital projector for those willing to take a little extra risk. And your argument to buy used CRT until digital improves further and drops in price further is I think a 100% legitmate viewpoint. After all, people can already buy a NEW digital projector (Infocus 7200 to pick one) for less than $7000 and obtain performance that you never could have dreamed of obtaining from a new CRT at the same price (notice again how that's an honest assessment even though you may want to deny it) and improvements and price drops are only gone to continue.

Now as far as my accusation of dishonesty - you are either sorely misinformed (which I don't believe) or purposely exaggerating (to put it nicely :)) about model changes with digital projectors. Digital projectors typically have a one year lifespan. New models don't get announced every three weeks or three months for that matter. HT manufacturers typically announce new models once a year at CEDIA OR occasionally at CES INSTEAD (the models announced at CES NEVER replace new models announced at CEDIA). And each year there is evolutionary rather than revolutionary progress (as with just about EVERY newer technology - except for older technologies such as CRT projectors and power amplifiers which is NOT a criticism). So a smart shopper who wants to buy once a year right after CEDIA and then unload before the next CEDIA probably does OK as far as the world of used electronics is concerned - although NEW electronic components are NEVER good investments (ESPECIALLY CRT!) as far as resale value goes (unless you happened to have bought 1950s Marantz product etc.).
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post #183 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 12:22 AM
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QQQ
I AM FORCED TO AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS
AND IT HURTS

IF YOU ALWAYS WAIT AROUND FOR SOMETHING
BETTER TO COME ALONG YOU WILL NEVER BUY
ANYTHING

NOW TAKE A CRT PROJECTOR
THE PRICES ARE COMING DOWN
SAY YOU WANT A BARCO 808
AND YOU FIND ONE FOR 2,500$$$$
WITH GOOD TUBES
SHOULD YOU WAIT AROUND
A FEW MONTHS - A YEAR
AND HOPE THE PRICE GOES DOWN
EVEN MORE
NOPE LIFE IS TO SHORT
IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT
BUY WHAT YOU LIKE NOW
AND ENJOY IT



XANATOS

IN THE LAND OF HOME THEATER

THE THREE EYED MONSTER IS KING
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post #184 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by QQQ
But in the case of digital you argue that the fact they they are improving is a reason not to buy them.
I think it is clear that Mike was making reference not to the fact that digitals are improving, but rather to the "inch-by-inch" rate at which they are improving. That is the reason not to buy when CRT, a more affordable technology (excluding niche CRT projectors still being produced) thanks to digitals owning the mainstream, is still the current image quality gold standard in video projection.

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By your reasoning I should never buy another computer because I will suffer buyers remorse because something better will be coming out.
I think that was a poor analogy. Computers and projectors are very different. Computers are advancing at a much faster rate. Image quality of projection technology is not. Digital projectors are generally not advancing image quality yet. They are still playing catch-up to the older technology. A new computer from 1986 with the then state-of-the-art Intel 80386DX processor is laughable to a new computer of today. Meanwhile, my Sony VPH-1030Q, which was manufactured in 1986, gives newer digital projectors a real run for their money in home theater applications. With computers we have pretty amazing speed and capacity advancements. With digital video projection we have pretty amazing size and convenience advancements. I could care less about such advancements in video projection. However, no serious computer user could care less about speed and capacity of computers.

Quote:

I do agree that used CRT IS an EXCELLENT value (notice how I don't have to be dishonest with the facts to prove my points), versus a new digital projector for those willing to take a little extra risk.
I guess when many of us think of buying a CRT projector, we think risk. But when you think about it, if you buy a CRT projector and it dies, you could easily part it out and find buyers or simply sell it back as needing repair. You would lose maybe 20% to 80% of the already insanely low price of the used CRT projector, excluding shipping. On the other hand, with a dead digital, with as many different models as there are, you might have trouble locating used parts or selling parts. New parts with either technology would most likely cost an arm and a leg. And what about the risks of dead pixels of digital technology? That's a very real risk. The laptop I'm typing this message on has 2 dead pixels. ;)

Quote:
So a smart shopper who wants to buy once a year right after CEDIA and then unload before the next CEDIA probably does OK as far as the world of used electronics is concerned...
A smart shopper, admittedly who puts image aesthetics at the top of their list and has the skill or the desire to learn how to setup a CRT, or is going to pay a tech to do a setup, buys the best CRT they can afford, period.

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post #185 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 03:45 AM
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QQQ,
my point was that with the perpetual evolution of lamp technologies quest to reach CRT's performance - it still has not happened. The process of improvement has been publicised for the past fifteen years, still the latest report reads as such: "almost there," "getting better," "closer," "SOON"

Please pardon my analogy, but it's like eating a green tomato... "it's beginning to show red," "this one is much better," "getting better," "closer," "almost there," "soon"..

I'm only concerned when it's ripe...

CRT is already RIPE, has been ripe for a very long time.. and it's cheap :D


BTW: many of us would convert in a heart beat, but there's nothing to step up to - digital is still GREEN.

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post #186 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 05:19 AM
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All these odd comparisons are really starting to get silly. :D

If this thread is to continue.... why don't we discuss the fact that Guy loves his HT1000 projected at a size of 60" (in some ways... more than his CRT!)
The really interesting part is the fact that he loves it this much and he's only using S-video! To claim that one would not see a big improvement using DVI (IMHO the improvement should be enough to increase the screen size) is like saying that CRT is as good as it gets with S-video so why bother with RGB and a scaler.

At least Guy has some real experience with the HT1000 and is making an educated and informed decision. Some CRT owners make uneducated comments on Digital Pj's without having even seen one. I'll be taking a close look at the HT1000 very soon, it will be projected at 90plus inches and using DVI. I used to own a Marquee 8000 so at least I'll have a good idea of what good CRT setup looks like. Especially since I saw KBK's modded M8000 beast as well, talk about a lifelike image!

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post #187 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 06:37 AM
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post #188 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 07:07 AM
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Thanks Bob.

So in summery the answer is: NO!

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post #189 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 07:20 AM
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Okay, this will get deep really fast. Put on your waders.

1) A CRT projects an image by using light as a way to draw the image. (Totally over simplified; don't want to hear about the nits.)

2) An LCD, DLP, and film projector project an image by shining light through an already drawn image. (Totally over simplified; don't want to hear about the nits.)

3) In real life, we perceive images by light reflected off objects that create a visual representation of the objects. (Totally over simplified; don't want to hear the nits.)

The question then becomes, which method of projection will ultimately bring us as close to #3 as possible?

My subjective opinion is that film does this best, CRT does it second best, and digital projectors come in third. However, having said that, I believe that digital projection will ultimately bring us closer to #3 than either film or CRT. The problem for digitals is to get that "already drawn image" in the LCD panels or color wheels or mirrors, or whatever to meet or exceed the drawn image that is captured by the finest film.

I think the thing that makes CRT both superior now and incapable of staying ahead of digital in the future is the very fact that it draws its images in light rather than projecting through an image. Since digitals can't get the image drawn as finely as we want it, the CRT exceeds them, especially in tightly controlled environments.

(I will get to your point, but I actually have to work for a couple of hours. Later.)

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post #190 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 07:53 AM
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I have to tell you, filecat, that what you just wrote is very similiar to the answers Arnold Schwarteneggar gives when they ask him a question. :D
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post #191 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 08:00 AM
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I have to tell you, filecat, that what you just wrote is very similiar to the answers Arnold Schwarteneggar gives when they ask him a question. :D
LOL! :)

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post #192 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Is this thread dying, or just the CRT?

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post #193 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 08:20 AM
 
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I think CRT is dying ... to get into my home. :D
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post #194 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kysersose
Some CRT owners make uneducated comments on Digital Pj's without having even seen one.
I guess this also true for those Digital defenders.
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post #195 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mp20748
The process of improvement has been publicised for the past fifteen years, still the latest report reads as such: "almost there," "getting better," "closer," "SOON"
Actually, digital is now "there". For 7K, a NEW digital FAR EXCEEDS the performance that was EVER available at that price point from a NEW CRT. For 3.5K, a new NEC HT-1000 FAR EXCEEDS the performance that was EVER available at TWICE that price point from a NEW CRT. For $900, you can get a new digital projector which most would probably agree outperforms the 4K Zenith CRT chassis which was to my knowledge the cheapest and most prolific CRT projector ever manufactured.

Of course there are many comparisons where CRT also wins (notice how I let that pesky thing called honesty continue to get in the way of my arguments).

But you're right. Digital sucks and is a waste of money :rolleyes:.

p.s. Anyone else here notice how the same guys that would argue till they were blue in the face that "it's not all about having a big screen, it's about picture quality" when a fan of digital would talk about being able to have a larger image with a digital - are the the same guys that are now arguing that "60" isn't really a home theater" when Guy Kuo talks about how his 3.5K NEC is out performing his 20K CRT on a 60" screen?
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post #196 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MYoung

Computers and projectors are very different. Computers are advancing at a much faster rate. Image quality of projection technology is not. Digital projectors are generally not advancing image quality yet.
Digital projectors are generally not advancing image quality yet? Are you serious? I can only come up with three possible reasons why someone would make such a statement, which IMO is clearly incorrect: (1) you have not seen the various digital projectors that have been offered during the past few years, and the improvements that have been made in quality (indeed, to coin a phrase of CRT aficianados, the picture quality of the digital projectors that were available three or four years ago are "not even close" to what is available now), (2) you have seen the improvments but nevertheless intend to deny the facts, as several on this forum feel compelled to do for reasons that I cannot understand, or (3) perceptions of quality regarding image projection vary as much as our taste for certain types of foods (e.g., some people like haggis, I am told), therefore, there is no point in arguing about the differences in image quality between CRT and digital anymore because there is no objective basis for discussion.
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post #197 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 09:43 AM
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One thing's for sure. Poor old Guy hasn't even participated in this debate. But he's been planted smack dab on the hot seat. :D
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post #198 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by filecat13
Okay, this will get deep really fast. Put on your waders.

1) A CRT projects an image by using light as a way to draw the image. (Totally over simplified; don't want to hear about the nits.)

2) An LCD, DLP, and film projector project an image by shining light through an already drawn image. (Totally over simplified; don't want to hear about the nits.)
Not to get too technical, but the LCD and Film projector corrolary are true because they are both TRANSMISSIVE formats.

DLP, however, is NOT a transmissive format and would fall into the same category with CRT. It is not able to give the contrast ratios and inky blacks of CRT due to light leakage. In that regard, DLP has made some good progress, but it needs to make a lot more because CRT black is so low. It may never get there, but it needs to improve at least until the difference is much, much smaller.
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post #199 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by smitty
(1) you have not seen the various digital projectors that have been offered during the past few years, and the improvements that have been made in quality (indeed, to coin a phrase of CRT aficianados, the picture quality of the digital projectors that were available three or four years ago are "not even close" to what is available now)
Smitty, that's not advancing image quality of projectors in general, that's advancing image quality of solely digital projectors. They are still playing catch-up. Catch-up is not advancing. I do agree that in the realm of digital projection, CRT projectors aside, there have been advances.

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(2) you have seen the improvments but nevertheless intend to deny the facts, as several on this forum feel compelled to do for reasons that I cannot understand
They have not advanced contrast ratios of projectors in general. CRT still owns that category. They have not advanced shadow detail of projectors in general. CRT still owns that. We are starting to see 1080p capabilities in digital projectors. CRT was capable of that in the mid 90s and is capable of even more now. So where is this advancement you speak of? All I see is catch-up.

Quote:

(3) perceptions of quality regarding image projection vary as much as our taste for certain types of foods (e.g., some people like haggis, I am told), therefore, there is no point in arguing about the differences in image quality between CRT and digital anymore because there is no objective basis for discussion.
The differences in contrast, shadow detail, black levels, and fluid image thanks to no discrete substrate, as we have with digital projection, makes results that aren't too hard to see. Lets give the human eye a little more credit Smitty. If digital projectors were truly advancing video projection like computer technology is advancing, we would not be having this discussion.

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post #200 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 12:14 PM
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RobertWood:

Yes.

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post #201 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 12:27 PM
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I see your point, but would hold forth with this. DLP still requires a separate light source and actually needs two imaging devices to draw the complete image: the grayscale DMD and the color light wheel.

The prismatic version of DLP (no color wheel) that separates the projector lamp's light into three colors which are fed to three independent DMDs is a compelling development, because it has a three gun (RGB) feel to it, and that along with super dense chips may be the design innovation that holds the most hope.

That's why I feel that digital will one day improve on CRT. But not today or anytime soon at a price that I can afford.

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post #202 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kysersose



Some CRT owners make uneducated comments on Digital Pj's without having even seen one.

true, and in this case I'm truly guilty of this. However my opinions comes directly from two manufacturers of two of the over 100K THREE CHIP DLP projectors. They claim that they're not at CRT quality, as of yet.

Also, while in Arizona last month, a rep for high end digital projectors came to see the 2 Marquees (9500 Ultra's) at Tim's. He confirmed what I've heard from the manufacturers.

Now, if the high end, very expensive three chip units aren't there yet. What's to make me think that there's a below 100K (especially below $20k) single chip unit that is...

Now can this thread get back on track...

"Is CRT dying" - NO!

Fact: it's very much alive, and still setting the benchmark for display technology performance.

:cool:

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post #203 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MYoung
Smitty, that's not advancing image quality of projectors in general, that's advancing image quality of solely digital projectors. They are still playing catch-up. Catch-up is not advancing. I do agree that in the realm of digital projection, CRT projectors aside, there have been advances.

Apparantly,we are two ships passing in the night. I understood your initial comment to be that the image quality of digital projectors was not advancing, which seemed to be what you were saying given the particular import of the statement made by QQQ regarding whether to purchase a computer in light of the improvements that are regularly being made in computer technology. Now you are saying that digital projectors are not advancing the overall image quality available from ANY type of projector. This may or may not be true, but it does not seem relevant to QQQ's initial point.
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post #204 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 02:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by QQQ
p.s. Anyone else here notice how the same guys that would argue till they were blue in the face that "it's not all about having a big screen, it's about picture quality" when a fan of digital would talk about being able to have a larger image with a digital - are the the same guys that are now arguing that "60" isn't really a home theater" when Guy Kuo talks about how his 3.5K NEC is out performing his 20K CRT on a 60" screen?
Guy also stated he bought his HT1000 for SDTV and TiVo. While that may have changed since he made the statement, its the cnotents of that state that explained why he bought the HT1000.
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post #205 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 02:36 PM
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I just read my statement quoted above and want to make sure I'm not twisting words. I don't feel like re-reading Guys quote but I believe he indicated that at <60" it was besting his NEC in many ways. I'm not sure if he said it was besting it period.

As far as your statement WanMan, I'm afraid I don't see the connection to my observation (the one that you quoted).
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post #206 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 02:57 PM
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I just read my statement quoted above and want to make sure I'm not twisting words. I don't feel like re-reading Guys quote but I believe he indicated that at <60" it was besting his NEC in many ways. I'm not sure if he said it was besting it period.
I took Guy's post to mean that the HT1000 was besting his CRT in many ways, just not blacks. This was at 60" and using S-video. Since most movies are shot with adequate lighting... I took it as a good thing! :D

Still..., can't wait to see what it can do with DVI. :)

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post #207 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 02:58 PM
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I went back and read it all. Looks like Robert was right. Artis Tech left out a whole lot. Since Robert isn't allowed to quote Mr. Kuo, I'll be glad to quote him.

Quote:
I hate to say it, but flipping the image between the two machines I'm still in shock at how good the HT1000 looks. If I power up the system and never look at the HT1000, the XG looks fantastic. Power them both up and flip between the two and the HT1000 beats the XG in the majority of scenes which are moderately to well lit. The size of picture makes this a bit unfair, but the HT1000's higher ANSI contrast and sharpness allows it to render MORE depth than the XG can if the scene is lit
Quote:
HT1000 is definitely a good performer, in probably 95% of scenes mine outperforms my very well set up NEC XG135LC 8 inch CRT. The little DLP creates a sharper and yet still smooth image which I can safely bet the majority of viewers will say is better than my CRT.
Quote:
the HT1000 now produces an image which is very dimensional, sharp, fluid and convincing. I attribute that to choosing a screen size approriate to its resolution and boosting its contrast ratio (and droppig black level) using a Hoya FLD filter. It makes the picture when I turn the CRT projector on look well..... disappointing.
Quote:
a higher resolution chip with at least 1500 pixels across would cross the threshold for an 80 inch wide projector for me.
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post #208 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 02:59 PM
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What I got out of Guy Kuo's remark's was that the DLP was producing a
sharper image than the XG and that he was going to attack it again to see if he could close the gap.
The XG was still for movies over the dlp.

Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand
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post #209 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 04:25 PM
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As I read those quotes (again), there's something about this that I find perplexing.
When Guy first posted his comments, I took it as very welcome news for all of us. Simply because it was the best evidence I've yet seen for the progress pixel projectors are making. And for those who are arguing that significant progress is not taking place, I would offer those four quotes above as exhibit A.
But what puzzles me is why we're all not seeing this as being good news.
When instead some of us are feeling threatened by it.
I'm using a CRT projector. But now I'm seeing that I'm going to have some good alternatives available to me too. I'm happy about that.
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post #210 of 302 Old 08-13-2003, 06:46 PM
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RobertWood,
I am happy about alternatives too. I have had CRT and DLP (X1) and CRT is still a bit above in PQ overall in the eyes of the masses even though I personally prefer my X1 to the CRT's I have had. The fact that digital is getting closer is a good thing. I would like to think that everyone would prefer a more portable solution if the image was a wash in everyone's eyes. It just saves money on the chiropractor bills:). And searching for out of date video boards, guns learning how to install or hire someone and associated costs more than offset the cost of a bulb, at least that was my experience. Don't mean to pick on CRT..I did enjoy mine a lot..life is just a bit easier now with the X1. I would still snap up an old CRT at a flea market if I was lucky enough to find one ..I enjoyed tinkering with them a lot. Just don't have the room or manpower to use one in my HT anymore.

My wife keeps saying I never listen to her....or something like that
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