Digital is not there yet....by a long shot.... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 287 Old 09-21-2003, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I had an epiphany yesterday. Last year I set up a home theater in my basement. I was fortunate to buy a Barco 808s from Terry Ferentinos. It has been used for over a year with an HTPC and has provided great enjoyment for the family.

Yesterday, I was at ABT Electronics in Glenview. It is a huge appliance electronics dealer in the Chicago area. They sell a lot of video epuipment and had a home theater projection set up. I walked in the room. I see the picture on the screen. It was Spiderman. A film I sometimes use to demo my theater for guests. With the Barco I KNOW how the film is supposed to look. As I glance at the screen....it was not even close. This was a JVC's High Resolution DLA-G150CL. The first thing I noticed was that the resolution was not the same. The screen door effect (I had never seen before but now could recognize it immediately) was obvious and annoying. The clarity of the image was not there. I went to look at the price. !7K Plus!!! I felt so fortunate that I had a CRT at 1/6 the cost! Yes it was not easy to install. But the picture quality even for a novice like me is so drastically different. I am sure the time will come when we will all switich to digital. It is not there yet......not by a long shot. :D

Kevin L
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post #2 of 287 Old 09-21-2003, 05:53 PM
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LOL - "epiphany" - good way to put it :-)

I have experience something totally similar - and I agree with you.

a year ago a friend bough a Sony VW11HT, being so proud of it, he invited me to come and take a look at it.

I had heard people rave about it, so I of cause had big expectations.

But the Sony was the biggest dissapointment I have had for a looong time, and I asked myself - how can anyone rave about a product that displays blacks like this....

yes, I am also VERY happy with my CRT - a 600$ ECP 3500 in perfekt condition....

(The bulp people can have it when they pry it from my cold dead hands) :-)


SKÃ…L!
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post #3 of 287 Old 09-21-2003, 06:49 PM
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I PREFER A CRT PROJECTOR MYSELF
BUT THE NEWER DIGITAL PROJECTORS ARE NOT THAT BAD
THE DLP YOU SAW MUST HAVE BEEN A REAL BAD SETUP

XANATOS

IN THE LAND OF HOME THEATER

THE THREE EYED MONSTER IS KING
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post #4 of 287 Old 09-21-2003, 09:00 PM
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How was the contrast on the JVC?
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post #5 of 287 Old 09-21-2003, 09:14 PM
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Neither of those is a DLP, Xanatos.

The Sony LCD is not even a contender.

And the D-ILA's I've owned (unless the GL150 is a lot different) couldn't
render black worth spit. And had relatively poor contrast.

None of this has much relationship to the performance of the newer DLP's.
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post #6 of 287 Old 09-21-2003, 10:07 PM
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Wow man, such a close forum member. I would love to come and check out your theatre. Where do you live?? I'm in Glenwood.

I started off with a BD800, but that damn thing got on my last nerve with focus. Looked like total crap.

Decided on a Dell 3200MP projector for my HT. I'm very happy with it so far, although the black levels suck big time.

What projector are you running?

I've been highly considering a Barco 1200 series projector for an upgrade, but want to burn a few more hours on my Dell for now :^)

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post #7 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 06:35 AM
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Why do I even read these treads? I know I don't have room for a CRT, but still I read and realize the crappyness of my digital.

Going to BB means rubbing elbows w/ the Unwashed Masses

No thanks

Netflix for me!
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post #8 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 08:18 AM
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Hmmm. That would seem to be a dilemna. Neither choice looks very
promising...

1. a big CRT I don't have room for
2. a crappy digital

maybe you should consider choice #3...

3. a non-crappy digital

:)
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post #9 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 08:47 AM
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Yes, but that would involve option #4, which is selling my soul to pay for it.

It is not that my projector is crappy, for the most part I am happy. It is just that when I turn on my little 13" tv I have standing by the screen that I picked up at a garage sale for $20, It is hard to say that my projector has a picture that is any better.

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post #10 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 08:49 AM
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Shoe soles are pretty cheap, you should be able to get a digital.

On the other hand, human souls could be costly. Depends on how good the soul is. :)

EDIT: Argh, post above was corrected, so now mine isn't funny anymore. :mad:
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post #11 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 09:07 AM
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Which digital projector model are we talking about?

p.s. a $20 TV at a garage sale (and it works no less)?
I have the utmost respect for you. You are obviously a man who knows how to shop. :)
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post #12 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 09:08 AM
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My trustly ol DL-450

Going to BB means rubbing elbows w/ the Unwashed Masses

No thanks

Netflix for me!
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post #13 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 09:16 AM
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I owned one of those little jewels for a year. Loved it. But you
have to use an HTPC with it. It doesn't want anything else connected
to it, period. If you are not already doing that, then do. I think you will
be pleasantly surprised at the result.
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post #14 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 09:18 AM
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Hey your cheapness

Quote:
Yes, but that would involve option #4, which is selling my soul to pay for it.
Someone been stealin your lines. LOL
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post #15 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 09:32 AM
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That's okay. Mike has a good head on his shoulders.

Always remember the immortal words of the greatest man who ever lived, Mike...

"A penny saved is a penny earned"
--Ben Franklin
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post #16 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobertWood
I owned one of those little jewels for a year. Loved it. But you
have to use an HTPC with it. It doesn't want anything else connected
to it, period. If you are not already doing that, then do. I think you will
be pleasantly surprised at the result.
Yeap I am running a HTPC for DVD and HDTV (MyHD card set to 800x600). The problem has been that my projector has a bad green-push. I went in there with Davis tuner and cleaned things up greatly-but It is still not prefect. I do agree that it is a great projector, it is just that I made the mistakes of looking at better ones:(

P.s. Like the $20 Tv? My mains (Polk Audio RTA11ts) I got at a garage sale for $60--They sold for about $1000 in 1990.

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post #17 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by FertilityDoc
I had an epiphany yesterday. Last year I set up a home theater in my basement. I was fortunate to buy a Barco 808s from Terry Ferentinos. It has been used for over a year with an HTPC and has provided great enjoyment for the family.

Yesterday, I was at ABT Electronics in Glenview. It is a huge appliance electronics dealer in the Chicago area. They sell a lot of video epuipment and had a home theater projection set up. I walked in the room. I see the picture on the screen. It was Spiderman. A film I sometimes use to demo my theater for guests. With the Barco I KNOW how the film is supposed to look. As I glance at the screen....it was not even close. This was a JVC's High Resolution DLA-G150CL. The first thing I noticed was that the resolution was not the same. The screen door effect (I had never seen before but now could recognize it immediately) was obvious and annoying. The clarity of the image was not there. I went to look at the price. !7K Plus!!! I felt so fortunate that I had a CRT at 1/6 the cost! Yes it was not easy to install. But the picture quality even for a novice like me is so drastically different. I am sure the time will come when we will all switich to digital. It is not there yet......not by a long shot. :D
Had similar experience with Mercedes recently. Own a Toyota and love it. No problems. Smooth ride. Comfortable. Borrowed friend's Mercedes yesterday. Never driven a Mercedes before. Got flat tire after about 3 miles, resulting in bumpy ride. Also radio didn't quite sound right. Then engine quit (perhaps due to lack of fuel). Conclusion: Mercedes not even close to Toyota . . . not by a long shot.
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post #18 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by FertilityDoc
The first thing I noticed was that the resolution was not the same. The screen door effect (I had never seen before but now could recognize it immediately) was obvious and annoying.
What was your viewing ratio? Have you had laser surgery on your eyes? If you can actually see screendoor on a 92+% fill ratio 1360x1024 projector from 1.5x screen width or so it would seem like you must have bionic eyes. I suspect you saw something else and not screendoor unless you were pretty close to the screen.

--Darin
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post #19 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 01:13 PM
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I've never seen a properly setup CRT in a showroom either (and I own a CRT projector). I would have never bought one based on showroom displays, and I saw many. I only got interested in CRTs at Hi-Fi '99 in Chicago when I actually saw one set up correctly in a light-controlled environment.

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post #20 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikejz84
Why do I even read these treads? I know I don't have room for a CRT, but still I read and realize the crappyness of my digital.
Mike, I'm betting you do have room for a CRT and you just don't know it. My CRT is currently floor-mounted in my cramped bedroom. Get a CRT with a small footprint and you will be good to go unless your HT room is a closet. That's where you store the 2nd CRT projector you buy and still have money left over instead of buying a "good" digital. ;)

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post #21 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 01:51 PM
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Check out the pics in my sig--The distance from screen to pj (wall to wall) is about 11-12'. You are more then welcome to figure out how to fit a CRT in there. Plus I have 3 roommates, and live on the 3rd story with only stairs.

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post #22 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by smitty
Had similar experience with Mercedes recently. Own a Toyota and love it. No problems. Smooth ride. Comfortable. Borrowed friend's Mercedes yesterday. Never driven a Mercedes before. Got flat tire after about 3 miles, resulting in bumpy ride. Also radio didn't quite sound right. Then engine quit (perhaps due to lack of fuel). Conclusion: Mercedes not even close to Toyota . . . not by a long shot.
Sorry but your analogy is not even close. Why do you seem to have such a problem with someone posting what is obviously their impressions on how something looked? It's not just this post but numerous others in this forum. One wonders why you even post in the CRT Forum if you are so happy with your digital. All the first poster did was post his impressions on how the JVC compared to his high end CRT. While some of his language may have been a little inflammatory his observations mirrored what most others would say. Does anyone think the black level and contrast range of a DILA is as good as a CRT? I would hope not. While digitals have advantages over CRT I think most reputable people would not put digital picture quality above that of a high end CRT. The bottomline is that people here have chosen CRT and have accepted it's short comings. To expect someone here to get excited about a digital that cost 4-5 times what their CRT cost and doesn't provide the same level of picture quality is, I'm sorry to say, just stupid.

I'm always amused when the digital folks complain about the CRT trolls and their mindless posts when some of their own members do the exact same thing here.
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post #23 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 02:02 PM
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I'm always amused that people mistakenly think these sorts of threads, and the "opinions" contained therein, actually matter.

--Jerome
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post #24 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaanage
How was the contrast on the JVC?
It's 600:1.

Lamp life is 1000 hours at full blast and 2000 hours in its economy mode. I guess the replacement lamp is pretty expensive. What I want to know is how many times more does the replacement lamp cost than my VPH-1031Q. :cool:

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post #25 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikejz84
Check out the pics in my sig--The distance from screen to pj (wall to wall) is about 11-12'. You are more then welcome to figure out how to fit a CRT in there. Plus I have 3 roommates, and live on the 3rd story with only stairs.
If you figure a 9' throw distance and 2' projector length, that just works. Get a small footprint, 7" CRT. You could also get a projector that can take HD-144 lenses. The HD-144 lenses will allow you to get a slightly larger image than other standard lenses found on many 7" machines. The Sony 1031Q is great for DVD. I know, I know... if I'm ever advocating a CRT projector, it's most likely a 1031Q. :D You should look into it, though. It's 540p, excellent contrast and blacks (duh! it's a CRT!), simply unbeatable price (about $500), can be virtually silenced so no need for a hushbox, pretty easy to setup, very reliable (it's a Sony!), lots of tweaks and information, heavily supported by fellow forum members. It's really a no brainer. I really don't understand people saying their room is too small for CRT. Where there's a will, there's always a way, unless a woman is involved. :D

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post #26 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 02:26 PM
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The problem is that all that furniture has to somehow make it in between the projector and the screen.

Going to BB means rubbing elbows w/ the Unwashed Masses

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Netflix for me!
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post #27 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 02:34 PM
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I just got back from a trip to Disney World, and saw the "ultimate home theater experience". What a disappointment.

The dedicated room had very good sound, but they backed up the sound with a runco single chip dlp. I have never seen splotchy blacks (greys) until then. I thought dlp's were immune to dust and splotches. The picture was bright, but the pixels were large and easily seen in the front row seats. I thought the picture was passable until I darted my eyes and the lucky charms rainbow popped out. I hope that dlp was not their best offering. I would get a headache from that thing.

End rant.

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post #28 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 02:35 PM
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This is all getting so silly. Time for a reality check.

Firstly to Mike. Afraid one of the Davis' shortcomings was not enough red even when the lamps are new. And after the lamp gets a lot of hours on it the red goes further south. So sad to say there's not much can be done about that.

Of course, what Darin says is correct. Screendoor is not an issue with D-ILA resolution. At least not for reasonable people. It is for a few people. But those are the anal types found over in the digital forum who won't be satisfied until we have 1080p panel resolution. Of course they also buy thousand dollar power cables and have them blessed by the Dahli Lama.

It's also true that D-ILA pretty much just sucks on the low end. Even when calibrated the contrast ratio is around 600:1 and black is a far cry from black. (I apologize in advance to Smitty, Darin and Jerome for this one. But y'all know as well as I do that it's true)

The Sony LCD model mentioned is, well LCD. Enough said about that.
However, Darin has seen a recently designed LCD that he thinks looks very good. I trust Darin's judgement so I would imagine it probably does.

And both Mike's are also correct. Fact is you can get a very good CRT projector picture for a few hundred bucks. Not so with digital.

You can get a very nice DLP picture that is comparable in many ways to CRT. Except for low IRE. The low end is better than D-ILA and LCD and better than earlier DLP. But it still aint CRT.
About every other aspect of the DLP picture is comparable to CRT, however. And it actually does a better job with high IRE (and arguably so does D-ILA and LCD)
BUT, and here's the big but, although rainbow has been greatly eliminated, DLP causes eyestrain and/or headaches in some. For those folks it's not an option under any circumstances.

So where does that leave us?
A CRT that costs a few hundred bucks making a respectable picture. But you'll have to be a wise shopper. You can get some CRT turds at this price level that you might as well go ahead and throw in the garbage. And you can get some very good performers. This option takes a little buying skill.
Or you can spend a minimum of about $3.5k and get a digital that will make you happy. I know it will because I'm removing my CRT from the ceiling tomorrow.

Or lastly, you can buy a 13" TV at a yard sale. That's by far and away the best choice here.
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post #29 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobertWood


... DLP causes eyestrain and/or headaches in some. For those folks it's not an option under any circumstances.

Yep, my experience exactly.

It's all about the performance... Got Marquee!

 

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post #30 of 287 Old 09-22-2003, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GScott
Sorry but your analogy is not even close. Why do you seem to have such a problem with someone posting what is obviously their impressions on how something looked? It's not just this post but numerous others in this forum. One wonders why you even post in the CRT Forum if you are so happy with your digital. All the first poster did was post his impressions on how the JVC compared to his high end CRT. While some of his language may have been a little inflammatory his observations mirrored what most others would say. Does anyone think the black level and contrast range of a DILA is as good as a CRT? I would hope not. While digitals have advantages over CRT I think most reputable people would not put digital picture quality above that of a high end CRT. The bottomline is that people here have chosen CRT and have accepted it's short comings. To expect someone here to get excited about a digital that cost 4-5 times what their CRT cost and doesn't provide the same level of picture quality is, I'm sorry to say, just stupid.

I'm always amused when the digital folks complain about the CRT trolls and their mindless posts when some of their own members do the exact same thing here.
Geez, relax will ya. Just having a little fun. :)
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