betcha never seen a CRT vs LCD comparison like this! - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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Old 03-14-2004, 11:30 PM
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some more

http://www.users.on.net/crumpet/Ht1000/middle.jpg
http://www.users.on.net/crumpet/Ht1000/moninc.jpg
http://www.users.on.net/crumpet/Ht1000/monstersinc.jpg
http://www.users.on.net/crumpet/Ht1000/fe2.jpg

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Old 03-15-2004, 08:27 AM
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Crumpet,

Your shots are excellent, but show the "dullness" I've come to see in screenies taken of DLP PJs. I'm sure their kick some hind end in person.

That referred shot of Frodo isn't all that good. Colors are over saturated yet still dull looking. But then, I'm getting to be more and more a fan of good LCDs. But even more so, I'm anxiously awaiting some screen shots from Marcosyscom that will come the day he, or anyone else fires up a Marquee CRT onto a Light Fusion screen. At that point, I think all DLP or CRT "on screen brightness" issues will disappear, and I'll be salivating to acquire a Three Gunner.

........
Wanman sez;

"Screen shots are nice to look at, but seeing the actual projected image is where it counts. I can wear a Mercedes hood ornament all day but that doesn't mean I got game."


Yeah, but it also probably means you drive a Taurus :)

Screenies are all there is for those who cannot travel to see several combinations at once. Also, Camera & PJ quality have evened the field down to where a properly exposed shot DOES tell the story fairly enough to start down the road cowards a decision. No, a buying decision might not be advisable via a screenie review, but if you look at the differences between the Good, Bad, and the Ugly, you can certainly narrow down the field a bit. Only trouble is, most the Uglies don't offer up thier shots for review.

Wanman, I'm sure you know in your black little heart that posting such an opinion on a thread focused on Screen shots is a little like spitting into a Cop's face; you did so because you were/ are looking for a response. And probably a fight. We are all Peace nicks here so please, either join in, or stay away, but don't bait. Most of us are way beyond that stage, having grown up and past those issues. Except me, of course, so "Put up those Dukes!" :mad: :p ;) :D

To quote James T. Kirk;
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Old 03-16-2004, 10:12 AM
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...seen an LCD vs CRT shootout like this before?
What do you say we spice things up a bit? Go here and have your say.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...68#post3532268
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Old 03-16-2004, 02:04 PM
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What about the contrast ratio? nobody seems to mention that the LCD or DLP can't come near a CRT contrast ratio.

:eek:

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Old 03-16-2004, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aksor
What about the contrast ratio? nobody seems to mention that the LCD or DLP can't come near a CRT contrast ratio.

:eek:
Or that a CRT can't come near a DLP contrast ratio.

How can that be? There is both on/off CR and ANSI CR. These single chip HT DLPs (I haven't measured any upcoming 3 chippers) excel way beyond any of these CRTs in ANSI CR, while the CRTs excel way beyond the DLPs in on/off. For instance, we measured a NEC XG135LC at 110:1 ANSI and my Sharp 11k at about 660:1 ANSI. However, the on/off is more like close to infinite for the XG135LC (depends on setup) and 4000:1 on the 11k. Overall I would say the contrast ratio advantage still goes to the CRT overall since the ANSI will bother most people less at this point, but a little further for some of these digitals and the contrast ratio advantage should swing their way. For those who don't understand ANSI CR, basically a lower ANSI numbers means that your "blacks" will be more gray when there is an equal mixture of white and black. That is, a lower ANSI CR number basically means there is more washout from bright parts of the image to dark parts.

BTW: William Phelps says his G90 is 8500:1 on/off when calibrated "correctly" and I think he would probably be considered the expert on calibrating G90s. I've seen at least one post claiming the G90 is significantly under 200:1 ANSI CR.

--Darin

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Old 03-16-2004, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh well. This has turned into another dPJ screenshot gallery.

I like pretty pictures and good photography technique, but I was hoping for constructive "side-by-side comparisons", not defensive bashing.

-Clarence
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Old 03-16-2004, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcorsyscom
Oh well. This has turned into another dPJ screenshot gallery.

-Clarence
Clarence,
Your'e alive. Is it me or have you just been on a limited posting adventure?
Hey, don't get upset. You should see what some of these ruffians did to my thread.

BTW, have you gone further with your light fusion experimentation?
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Old 03-16-2004, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi CMRA-

Nah, I'm not upset. But I was hoping for more true comparisons like the ones from Tore:


I know there are a lot of people with multiple projectors. And I even accept that there are several people replacing their CRTs with LCD/DLP/DILA. I was excited to see renewed activity in this thread, but it all seems to be one-sided digital shots. Nice ones, though.

Yeah, my posting has had to slow down lately (cheering erupts from the balcony)... Things have picked up at work and at home, so my forum posts have been limited. Sadly, my Silver Metallic + MM ingredients are still sitting in the corner of my basement waiting for a free weekend.

But the good news is that they finally started construction on our new house! I'm finally going to give my Marquee a proper home instead of just hanging from the joists in an unfinished basement.

Here's the first ever picture of our new dedicated home theater...
LL
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Old 03-16-2004, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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And here's an "artist's conception" of the new home theater... (man, I wish the Marquee was really this easy to ceiling mount)



-Clarence
LL
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Old 03-16-2004, 08:11 PM
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Talk about light control! What do you do when someone yells 'fire' in your theater? Where's the exit?
Yeah, I'm just a little jealous. But, I'll get over it. Congrats on the new home complete with a 'dedicated' theater. Buena vista.
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Old 03-22-2004, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcorsyscom
[b]Hi CMRA-

Nah, I'm not upset. But I was hoping for more true comparisons like the ones from Tore:
http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/tore.gif
Thanks, btw, I found that I had a better LCD version of the above picture you used in the animation. Shutter speed of the camera is terribly important to get fair comparisions, and the one I found had a bit shorter shutter time, hence getting a less overexposed image:

http://home.online.no/~tklev/LCDvsCRT/100_0237.JPG

Regards,
Tore K.
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Old 03-22-2004, 05:47 AM
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How to get a true likeness of the differences between the projectors.
Get a kodak 18% grey card,put it on your screen .
Use spot metering on the grey card whilst showing the image that you want to post.
Meter for the grey card,and make an exposure.
You now have known a reference.
Develop the film,and get the grey scales to match exactly to the 18% on a PRINT of the screen shots,this totally eliminates any differences due to shutter speed or aperture,and also the light output of the differing PJ's
Then scan the prints and post.
I learn't this technique from Darkroom Photography Mag,works a treat if you are shooting under different lighting conditions.
You will ALWAYS get a true representation of the scene in question if you do it this way.
It also negates any colour imbalances between the two formats,which will be very obvious in the final prints.
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Old 03-22-2004, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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You lost me when you said "Develop the film". It's been a few years since I've done that.
But I bought a Kodak gray card a couple of weeks ago.
I might have to dig out my old Canon Elan II SLR.

-Clarence
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Old 03-22-2004, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcorsyscom
And here's an "artist's conception" of the new home theater... (man, I wish the Marquee was really this easy to ceiling mount)

:)

-Clarence

I want your HT business. Want a whole lot for just a little bit? I'll give it to ya.

Email me. don't want to bash Forum rules any more than the statement above already did.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

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Old 03-22-2004, 07:47 AM
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You Could take it to your one hour photo shop,just get them to get the grey from each to match exactly.

The best thing is that you take the grey card with you to the processors and as soon as they can match a print with that 18% grey card your there.
It all depends on how much CC-{colour correction for those who are wondering} they have to dial in.

I mean you really have to match your film stock{ie:negative or slide}with a enlarger colour analzer...but only if you are a perfertionist.

Mind you,it WILL be THAT precise,but the end result after scanning will equal the same difference between the PJ's as the end result.
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Old 03-22-2004, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcorsyscom
I just figured out why the image looks so damn similar...

It's my frickin' screenshot on his site!

...

-Clarence
I hope you all are putting watermarks on these awesome screen-shots. I would hate your pics to end up on ebay selling those Fresnel lens kits for a "200" image from your 13" TV... ;)


I haven't seen any pics yet that would convince me to swap out my CRT.

I'm hoping to get my AV friend to bring over a $8-10k digital for a comparison like Clarence...same camera settings, etc...
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Old 03-22-2004, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by bentson
I hope you all are putting watermarks on these awesome screen-shots. I would hate your pics to end up on ebay selling those Fresnel lens kits for a "200" image from your 13" TV... ;)
I can't tell from your wink if you saw the thread on that exact scenario...
My pictures have been hijacked for an eBay scam!

I've been assured by the seller and his hosting providers that my images will not be used in that manner again.

I will not adapt my pictures with overlays because it detracts from their intended purpose for 99.44% of legitimate viewers. However, I will pursue corrective action against all unauthorized, misrepresentative, and/or fraudulent uses of my images or likeness.

-Clarence
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Old 03-22-2004, 12:16 PM
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I did see your ebay issue.

I sent the ebay "fraud service" a link to your site as well. That stuff really gets me going.

Adding a small (c) Clarence 2004 in the corner shouldn't detract from the image for our purposes but may prove invaluable if similar deception & misrepresentation of screen-shots of our hard work is used in the future.
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Old 03-22-2004, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Old 03-22-2004, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MississippiMan
Crumpet,

Your shots are excellent, but show the "dullness" I've come to see in screenies taken of DLP PJs. I'm sure their kick some hind end in person.


Dullness ? hmmmm
maybe you need to take off your sunglasses
call them what you want but dull definately dosent belong in the sentence

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Old 04-02-2004, 08:19 PM
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I am currently fiddling around with the HD Leeza and Samsung HD settop box into my Nec XG.

D-Theater from the JVC 30k through firewire (w/5c) into the Samsung HD box through component into the HD Leeza, doubled to 1920x1080p with proper film-mode and reconstructed at 48hz (2:2 pulldown) through RGBHV into the Nec XG.

Apart from a few flaws and issues that i am investigating, a breathtaking combination.

Here are 2 screenshots, taken yesterday, from Moulin Rouge D-Theater:

http://www.videophile.info/Screen/Ro...s/Rouge04s.jpg


http://www.videophile.info/Screen/Ro...s/Rouge08s.jpg

Using tripod, Canon 10D, 24-70L@24, ISO100, F4.0, mostly about 0.5 seconds shutter. Original resolution 3072x2048. The 2 images above are resized to quarter res. in both dimensions: 768x512.

Here are the same picture downsized to 1536x1024 (too big to include in post):

Rough04 highrez!
Rough08 highrez!

Enjoy.

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Old 04-02-2004, 08:28 PM
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I'll say one thing, that" champagne and Nicole " image has some serious depth. Bjoern, you spend way too much time away from here. How is Deutchland ?

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Old 04-02-2004, 11:33 PM
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Just to throw my 2 cents in here. I only read the 1st 2 pages and the last 2 of this monster thread.

I spent a full year planning and saving to get a projector after seeing the Sharp z9000 set up at Ultimate Electronics playing Lord of the Rings: FOTR. It was love at first sight. Months into the planning I decided out of boredom to look in this CRT forum, and was shocked to find superior screenshots and prices(my only reference for CRT prices was a new Sony G90 for $40k).

Long story short, I ended up getting a Barco G808 for only $1,600 in perfect condition(no tube wear). Now when I first saw the Sharp, I saw only perfection, no flaws. I noticed the screendoor only after reading about it(I visited UE a LOT), but it wasn't bad.

When I went back just recently, they had the Sharp Z10000. I was amazed at how overly red the image was, and I saw the screendoor immediatly. They were playing Star Wars ep 2, which I immedatly came home to compare with my 808, only to find there was none. My 808 was as visually dynamic as the Sharp, and smoother.

To me this whole CRT vs Digital is ridiculous. My $1,600 BG808 beat the hell of a $10k DLP. And I didn't need side by side screenshots to see a difference. Admitedly I got a bargain on the 808, as they go on Ebay frequently at $3,500 or so... but still, $3,500 vs $10,000...

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Snake Plissken

 

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Old 04-03-2004, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by plissken99
To me this whole CRT vs Digital is ridiculous. My $1,600 BG808 beat the hell of a $10k DLP. And I didn't need side by side screenshots to see a difference. Admitedly I got a bargain on the 808, as they go on Ebay frequently at $3,500 or so... but still, $3,500 vs $10,000...
Last I looked a Sharp 10k can be had brand new with one year warranty (but you pay the shipping overseas) for about $5200, refurbs in the US with warranties for a little bit less, and used without warranty (like you are talking about with an 808) would be a little bit more than your $3500 (probably $4k or a hair higher). I sold mine used for $4k over 6 months ago.

Being too red is obviously a setup problem, just as misconvergence or reddish images would be in a store demo of your projector.

--Darin

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Old 04-03-2004, 05:57 PM
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Well the price has dropped since I was in the market for one. I knew you'd say that about the red in the image, however their set up was calibrated with Avia Pro. Red push is a common problem with digital pjs, LCD in particular.

Digital is closing the gap though. I look forward to seeing how Sony's SXRD evolves. Perhaps when my CRT craps out on 5-10 years , I can buy a digital pj thats as good, maybe even better.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Old 04-03-2004, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by plissken99
Well the price has dropped since I was in the market for one. I knew you'd say that about the red in the image, however their set up was calibrated with Avia Pro.
Sharp 10k prices haven't dropped much since Avia Pro was introduced. They were available for not far from those prices from day one of Avia Pro. Maybe you meant Avia, though.

There are always shops that will try to get prices much higher than things are available for if you just look around on the internet. There seems to be a common theme here of using MSRP for digital prices and ebay (or Curt) for CRT prices.

--Darin

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Old 04-03-2004, 08:04 PM
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No it was Avia Pro, the UE price is $7,999(when I talk about the red, I meant the last trip, as it looked fine to me before), and was $9,999 a few months ago. At the time I was looking I never found a very different price online.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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