betcha never seen a CRT vs LCD comparison like this! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 267 Old 01-23-2004, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I borrowed the Epson PowerLite 715c LCD (1200 ANSI lumens, 1024x768, $5699) from work to see how a high-lumen projector would compare to my Electrohome Marquee 8000 CRT.

Here's the exact same camera (4MP Canon S45), on the exact same screen (12'x8' drywall painted with Sherwin Williams Ultra Bright White Matte), with the exact same frame from "Fifth Element" (I have 2 copies, LCD has the "Superbit Edition"). LCD from my laptop at 1024x768. CRT from my HTPC at 1024x768. Both using WinDVD 4.

Tripod, AWB, and auto-exposure.

Give it time to load. It should cycle between 4 images (I used PSP Animation Shop)...
- me standing in front of the screen with both projectors turned on
- screen with both projectors on (but without me)
- just the LCD (higher image)
- just the CRT (lower image and slightly larger)

http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/5e.gif

Some observations:

My Marquee is set at Brightness=40 and Contrast=40.

256 color GIFs aren't the best for showing screenshots, but I couldn't do an animated JPG. I'll post larger JPGs separately.

My CRT is slightly stretched because I like the widescreen view, but I don't like the wasted space on the screen, so I stretch it taller. I didn't realize how much taller I was stretching it until seeing how skinny Bruce's face looks here.

The LCD is 6' further back behind the CRT, but I ran out of cord space, so I couldn't get the image any larger. So if anything, it should be about 10% brighter because the image isn't as large.

The LCD image is higher because from the back of the room, I had to get it to shine over my theater seats. I also had to change my usual tripod position because the bulb left a very distinct shadow on the screen when I had it set in front, so I moved it further back and slightly offset. The tripod is usually set right under my ceiling mounted CRT.

I don't want this to be a LCD bashing thread, but I was impressed with the relative brightness of my CRT (with only 225 ANSI lumens vs the Epson's 1200 ANSI lumens!)

I know this LCD projector is 2001 technology, but it's the best I could borrow, and my CRT is from 1995. The LCD's screen door effect was also worse than I remembered from when I'd borrowed the Epson before I bought my CRT. I took some screenshots of SDE too.

Man, I love my Marquee!

-Clarence
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post #2 of 267 Old 01-23-2004, 04:28 PM
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Guys!

My first M8000 from five years ago kicked a Dukane 9000 (JVC DILA) in every aspect of picture quality; the DILA was superior only if viewing computer spread sheets all day (no burn-in).

--------------------
Tim at E-Tech ooo ehometech@earthlink.net ......your Marquee Pro Shop!
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post #3 of 267 Old 01-23-2004, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcorsyscom
I borrowed the Epson PowerLite 715c LCD (1200 ANSI lumens, 1024x768, $5699) from work to see how a high-lumen projector would compare to my Electrohome Marquee 8000 CRT.

Here's the exact same camera (4MP Canon S45), on the exact same screen (12'x8' drywall painted with Sherwin Williams Ultra Bright White Matte), with the exact same frame from "Fifth Element" (I have 2 copies, LCD has the "Superbit Edition"). LCD from my laptop at 1024x768. CRT from my HTPC at 1024x768. Both using WinDVD 4.

Tripod, AWB, and auto-exposure.

Give it time to load. It should cycle between 4 images (I used PSP Animation Shop)...
- me standing in front of the screen with both projectors turned on
- screen with both projectors on (but without me)
- just the LCD (higher image)
- just the CRT (lower image and slightly larger)

http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/5e.gif

Some observations:

My Marquee is set at Brightness=40 and Contrast=40.

256 color GIFs aren't the best for showing screenshots, but I couldn't do an animated JPG. I'll post larger JPGs separately.

My CRT is slightly stretched because I like the widescreen view, but I don't like the wasted space on the screen, so I stretch it taller. I didn't realize how much taller I was stretching it until seeing how skinny Bruce's face looks here.

The LCD is 6' further back behind the CRT, but I ran out of cord space, so I couldn't get the image any larger. So if anything, it should be about 10% brighter because the image isn't as large.

The LCD image is higher because from the back of the room, I had to get it to shine over my theater seats. I also had to change my usual tripod position because the bulb left a very distinct shadow on the screen when I had it set in front, so I moved it further back and slightly offset. The tripod is usually set right under my ceiling mounted CRT.

I don't want this to be a LCD bashing thread, but I was impressed with the relative brightness of my CRT (with only 225 ANSI lumens vs the Epson's 1200 ANSI lumens!)

I know this LCD projector is 2001 technology, but it's the best I could borrow, and my CRT is from 1995. The LCD's screen door effect was also worse than I remembered from when I'd borrowed the Epson before I bought my CRT. I took some screenshots of SDE too.

Man, I love my Marquee!

-Clarence
Excellent idea !!!!!! This is a perfect way to look and compare. Your file seems to be bleeding together - so cannot really tell anything except that the CRT ROCKS.

Please send me the actual gif animated file - my email is on my profile.

Thanks.

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
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post #4 of 267 Old 01-23-2004, 05:52 PM
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A novel way of comparison and certainly one which merits further refinement.

A couple of suggestions to bring about a more meaningful comparison would be to use the manual white balance setting if available, defined by shining a D65 reference onto the screen beforehand. That should show up differences more fairly.

Using auto exposure is going to even out the differences in light output between the different technologies, so my preference would be to set exposure for the brightest image and use that setting for the other projector. If the latter then produces a camera picture too dark to be meaningful, then revert back to autoexposure but state the exposure settings chosen by the camera. This info is normally stored in the jpeg itself and is accessible by checking the files properties from within Windows.

Cheers :)

Russ

It's converged! Now if only I could remember what I did ......
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post #5 of 267 Old 01-23-2004, 06:01 PM
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Is the LCD all green in person ??
It looks horrible color wise.
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post #6 of 267 Old 01-23-2004, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Your file seems to be bleeding together - so cannot really tell anything
OK, I added labels to each of the four frames so you can tell which scene is which. The ones that are bleeding together are when both projectors are on at the same time.

It's a 400K file, so give it a few minutes to finish loading (same file name as before, so just hit refresh and it should update in the first post)

Quote:
use the manual white balance setting if available, defined by shining a D65 reference onto the screen beforehand
I've heard of gray cards at photo stores to set WB. When you say D65, would it be the same if I displayed a full-screen box in Powerpoint filled with 65% gray, then set manual WB?

-Clarence
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post #7 of 267 Old 01-23-2004, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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And here's a closup to show the LCD's screen door effect (and my seemingly poor skills at CRT focus)...

The LCD also looks green in comparison in these shots too, but I'm using default settings and no color overlay adjustments on either projector. If I was keeping the LCD for more than a weekend, I'd adjust it to have more red.

LCD:
http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/5e-eye-lcd.jpg

CRT:
http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/5e-eye-crt.jpg

These are handheld shots, so the focus and angle are slightly off.

-Clarence
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post #8 of 267 Old 01-23-2004, 07:27 PM
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Awsome.

Im surprised we hav'nt heard anything from QQQ yet?
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post #9 of 267 Old 01-23-2004, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
my preference would be to set exposure for the brightest image and use that setting for the other projector. If the latter then produces a camera picture too dark to be meaningful, then revert back to autoexposure but state the exposure settings chosen by the camera. This info is normally stored in the jpeg itself and is accessible by checking the files properties from within Windows.
Thanks Russ! I didn't know how to find that info:
http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/exp-info.png

The "LCD only" shot and the "CRT only" shot both have the exact same settings as shown above.

However, the darker shot of "LCD+CRT on at the same time" was f/3.5, but only had an exposure time of 0.6 sec instead of 1.0 - I guess having both projectors on made the camera think it was brighter, so it didn't need as long for the shutter.

-Clarence
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post #10 of 267 Old 01-23-2004, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmmm...

I don't know if this series tells more or less than the first shots...

Here, I tried to line up the same image from both projectors. I changed the height and slid the Epson LCD back even further. For the same projected throw (on the same 12x8 screen), the LCD is ~8' further back than my Marquee. I changed the Epson's gamma setting to "Dynamic" to get more red tone (the only settings I could find were Brightness, Contrast, and Gamma).

I was tempted to not label these to see if you could guess which was CRT and which was LCD...

http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/e6-anim.gif

Instead of AWB, the camera has the same manual settings on all three shots: F/3.5 for 1 second. I can't figure out why there's a seat reflection only in the combo shot.

My assessment is that the light levels are oddly comparable. Can anybody explain why my 225 ANSI Marquee isn't significantly dimmer than a 1200 lumen LCD?!

I can't think of a nice way to say this, but in real life, at full size (well, larger than full size) I'd have a hard time imagining anyone preferring the LCD's image. And if you're sitting closer than about 10' to the screen, the LCD SDE is too hard to ignore.

-Clarence
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post #11 of 267 Old 01-23-2004, 10:50 PM
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Nice comparsion, especially of the screendoor. I wonder how often you watch the screen such that you are right in the action. If you do it often, I can see why you would love the Marquee! :D

The CRTs and the digitals seem to use different methods of measuring their light outputs. The digitals don't even use the same methods across different projectors, so its hard to compare them directly. Just something I've read from others trying to compare these. CRTs are much, much brighter than we all seem to think they are.
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post #12 of 267 Old 01-23-2004, 11:24 PM - Thread Starter
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After seeing the animated GIF on the screen, I noticed a few things...

- this is not the same frame on both projectors! I paused my laptop/LCD and then went to my HTPC/CRT and looked for "the frame where her hair is touching the bottom of her left eye (our right)", but if you look at her hair on our right, it's different. I'm amazed the eyes and mouth lined up so well even though the hair is different.

- the LCD's "dynamic" gamma didn't really help her skin color. Does anyone know how to adjust the colors on an Epson LCD?

- I removed the frame with the seat reflection (it was from my flashlight. Doh!)
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post #13 of 267 Old 01-23-2004, 11:30 PM
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If you cross your eyes the LCD screendoor pic looks like the Fifth Element on VCD.

- Mike Young
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post #14 of 267 Old 01-23-2004, 11:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey, I just noticed you can see my old ECP3101 which is mounted a few feet forward and to the right of my Marquee.

Hmmm... I wonder if I could try a triple stack?!
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post #15 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 12:07 AM
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To look at the last comparison shots and look at the reflected light on your ceiling, it *appears* that the CRT is putting out more light, more is being reflected onto the ceiling anyway. I think this comparison puts to rest the notion that LCD's are "brighter". What matters is the appearance, I mean we don't watch movies with a calculator and light meter, we use our eyes. If the CRT picture *looks* brighter, more representative of real life, thats what matters isn't it ?
Great series BTW, thanks for posting them.
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post #16 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 12:41 AM
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Hey, we are seen this same kind of difference between CRT and LCD
My old EH2000 beat philips hopper in brighness. Hopper has only 3 times more lightpower that Electrohome. Colors are also... how I can say from other planet.Sorry My english
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post #17 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stumbo
Awsome.

Im surprised we hav'nt heard anything from QQQ yet?
Here I am :D.

I would certainly hope that a $23,000 (new) CRT projector would outperform a $5600 1024 x 768 LCD presentation projector.

Now if you had have made the comparison between the $23,000 (new) 8000 and a $13,000 1280 x 720 Marantz S3 projector, you might have an interesting comparison.

I would also note that although the 8000 is 9 years old CRT has made very few REAL advances over the past 10 years - it's a mature technology. Digital on the other hand has made HUGE strides over the past 5 years so I would expect that if you want to do a "real" CRT versus digital comparison you should try to choose a new digital. I think this was an interesting comparison but I think I know what the reaction would be in this forum if I posted a comparison of a state of the art digital projector to an old Zenith 4K CRT projector. I think it would be a pretty silly comparison and pretty sad to use as an example of "digital versus CRT".

BTW, my posts here have NEVER been about claiming digital is better than CRT or visa versa. I have simply tried to present an even handed view of the two technologies.
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post #18 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 01:26 AM
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p.s. Recent LCD models using MLA technology have improved screen door considerably over a model such as this, but even so IMO LCD has the worst picture of the digital technologies. IMO DLP and DILA/LCOS are the real digital "contenders".
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post #19 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 01:31 AM
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p.p.s. And in answer to the thread title "betcha never seen a CRT vs LCD comparison like this!", NO I haven't. Perhaps next week you can do a comparison where you arm wrestle a five year old girl and then post the results about your superior strength :D.
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post #20 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 01:43 AM
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Yup, that about sums it up - CRT is the mighty one, LCD is the 5 year old girl - straight out of the horses mouth.

Loving my Electric Bike!!
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post #21 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 02:55 AM
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Nahh, that just sums up the overt smugness here :), comparing a poor example of the worst of the competing technologies(lcd) and trying to draw a conclusion from it.
Surely someone here who has a good setup with their crt could invite someone with one of the better dlps or DILA/LCOS units from the digitall forum, and we could get a meaningful compare for once? Any takers?
(They can easily bring their projector over :) and get some decent side by side piccies

DON'T feed the troll.
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post #22 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 03:13 AM
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marcorsyscom;
Very nice done...CRT rules ;)

btw: 40/40 on contrast/brightness sounds a bit wrong?
Try setting 39/65 and you shold get even better PQ...Focus will be better, and you get more details in dark scenes.

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post #23 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 03:56 AM
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marcorsyscom;
I would go a step more and say this is one of the best and most useful comparisons yet to prove a point between two technologies.

Now,the definitive -finally put to bed shootout would be-and I dont know why nobody has done this yet is to compare -lets say a Sim HT300+ XTRA/Sharp 11k/Marantz S3 with a G90/Marquee Ultra 9500lc Ultra/Cine 9.

Anybody want to take bets on whats going to look the best?

..Oh and by the way the 1272 im messing around with at the moment is almost as bright as the 12HT I had ..Dim old crt I used to think...not anymore...
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post #24 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 05:37 AM
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QQQ has made some very valid points, but practically, in real world terms, this is a useful comparison because it is a comparison of two technologies within the same currently available price level. In fact, to be fair, the LCD in question is STILL likely more expensive to buy and is DEFINITELY more expensive to run when cost of lamps is factored in. The average Joe can better afford the CRT than the LCD, so this comparison is even more acutely useful.
So while the "original" price of the items varies widely in favor of the CRT, the PRESENT and ACTUAL cost of the candidates favors the LCD by quite a margin.
I would agree with HEAT too, if you want to have a definitive comparison of technologies, you'd have to have a Chris Stephens/MP modded brand new VDC 9500LC ULTRA as the crt entry.
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post #25 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 06:46 AM
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Well guys, I bought a 68 Porsche 911 in a junkyard for $1000, restored it to near new for $15,000 and it beats the pants off of that 97 Toyota Camry for sale at Carmax at the same price. Sounds logical??? I think not...

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post #26 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 06:53 AM
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I cannot belive such videophiles as you CRT guys would actually make an opinion of GIF format pictures. Oh wait, your opinions are already made... ;)

Getting CRT is like getting religion.

There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity. You can't take the sky from me.
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post #27 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 07:01 AM
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http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/5e.gif

Quote:
Originally posted by HEAT


I would go a step more and say this is one of the best and most useful comparisons yet

http://members.cox.net/buddy_weiser/grin3.gif

http://members.cox.net/buddy_weiser/grin.gif http://members.cox.net/buddy_weiser/grin.gif
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post #28 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Now if you had have made the comparison between the $23,000 (new) 8000 and a $13,000 1280 x 720 Marantz S3 projector, you might have an interesting comparison.
As I said in the first post, I used the best dPJ I had access to. My original intent was to compare my low CRT lumens vs a high lumen bulb. I'm sorry you didn't find the comparison interesting.

As an admittedly frugal hobbyist, I'm more concerned about PQ and what I'd have to spend today. I don't really care about original list cost.

I paid $511 for my Marquee 5 months ago. They can still be found for $800-$1200. I doubt anyone could find any dPJ that could exceed or even meet this CRT's performance, even at 2x, 3x, or 10x the current cost. Or 25x...

If anyone wants to bring over or ship me a $13,000 DLP/DILA/LCOS, I'll conduct a similar test (same screen, same DVD scene, same camera).

-Clarence
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post #29 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 07:44 AM
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Well very very nice. Most comparisons of any sort on this forum just don't do apples to apples . As the dog said to Sylvester " I don't know how uz done it but I know uz done it !":D

Art

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iRule rules my theater
 

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post #30 of 267 Old 01-24-2004, 08:29 AM
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what is the old saying ? a picture is worth a thousand words? judging by the comparison and the sarcasm from QQQ the jig is up and for the best value for the dollar crt is still king...............

behind every successful man is a suprised mother-inlaw......
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