Was the Guy Kuo Shootout Fair - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=1

Has this changed any opinions over here about the *performance* (NOT value) of CRT versus digital? Or is Guy Kuo's NEC XG CRT set up incorrectly? Or is something wrong with it? Or is it that Guy and Darin and the G-70 owner just don't know what a good picture is? Those seem the only 3 possibilities to me unless I'm missing something.

To be honest, I was a bit surprised (but only a bit :D) by the fact that the 3 person panel, which includes 2 CRT owners (not including Darin since his NEC CRT is not set up) seem to have agreed the Sharp won the night.

For those that aren't familiar with it, the Sharp 11000 used in the shootout is a 1280 x 720 DLP projector. It is sold here in the states as the model 12000 and is a current model.

Personally, I think something Darin said is key to the results. Because regardless of the fact that digital is easier to set up, it still requires proper set up to look good and many people don't see one set up that way at the stores.
Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned earlier, but one nice thing about today's comparison was that it was 2 projectors that have been setup for home use. Projectors in stores pretty much always look bad to me and people discount all sorts of models because they don't look good in most store setups. That goes for digital as well as CRT. Just something to remember. If you saw a model you own in the store without knowing what it was you would probably say that it wasn't as good as what you have at home.

One of my favorites is the person who ranked all the projectors as CEDIA and put the InFocus 7205 near the top and Toshiba's projector near the bottom. No disrespect, but they are the same projector and this should tell us a lot about how important setup is.
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post #2 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 09:58 PM
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If I say it was fair will you get rid of that horrible picture under your name? Ok, so it appears the Sharp can beat an 8" machine in everything except dark scenes for $12000. right? There's still the issue of how these machines will survive the upcoming high-resolution formats. Standard DVD is well below par for what most display technology is capable of. I wish they could have compared HDTV broadcast.

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post #3 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 09:58 PM
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I'm surprised Darin didn't PM me on this one. I love to be the discenting opinion;)
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post #4 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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There's a 4th option I didn't consider. It's a vast conspiracy by Texas Instruments and Darin and Guy were paid off to throw the contest. I knew there had to be an explantion ;).
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post #5 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tryg
I'm surprised Darin didn't PM me on this one. I love to be the discenting opinion;)
Maybe he didn't think you'd have time to come down from Olympia (look at his location for those that don't get the joke).
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post #6 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 10:09 PM
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I'm not real familiar with the DLP PJs (I've got a 1251 that I'm considering upgrading to an 8" EM machine), but could I infer from this shootout that the BenQ 8700 would have fared basically the same as the Sharp? The one thing I do know is they're both WXGA resolution, both have the HD2+ chip (well, the BenQ is HD2, I believe...is that different than the HD2+?), and similar light output. Looks like the Sharp has a much better contrast ratio (5000:1 compared to 2000:1 for the BenQ, so perhaps that was why it seemingly fared so well).

So now the question is, upgrade to another CRT now, or wait a year and pick up the 8700 for <$3000?

Steve
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post #7 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by draganm
Ok, so it appears the Sharp can beat an 8" machine in everything except dark scenes for $12000. right?
So, do I get to quote the MSRP as the price for an 8" machine, also?
Quote:
I wish they could have compared HDTV broadcast.
I showed them some D-Theater "Moulin Rouge" and "Beauty of Japan" on the 11k, but the CRT wasn't setup for that. They seemed to be very impressed. The 3D effect is pretty incredible on those.

As far as inviting people, this was a small room and it wasn't my get together. I didn't invite anybody. And even Tryg could have seen the differences. :) They weren't subtle, IMO.

If anybody here is near Seattle and wants to prove digital wrong, I am willing to bring the 11k to compare to a CRT. One rule though, your CRT better look better than Guy's or it would be a waste of time, IMO. :)

Quote:
Originally posted by S. Stogel
I'm not real familiar with the DLP PJs (I've got a 1251 that I'm considering upgrading to an 8" EM machine), but could I infer from this shootout that the BenQ 8700 would have fared basically the same as the Sharp? The one thing I do know is they're both WXGA resolution, both have the HD2+ chip (well, the BenQ is HD2, I believe...is that different than the HD2+?), and similar light output. Looks like the Sharp has a much better contrast ratio (5000:1 compared to 2000:1 for the BenQ, so perhaps that was why it seemingly fared so well).
The 8700 is probably comparable to the 10k. I upgraded from the 10k and feel the 11k does shadow detail better as well as the better CR. The 11k has the HD2+ as well as a 7 segment wheel that reduces dithering and it has color controls over DVI that the 10k doesn't. It is hard to say how the 8700 would have fared against the CRT. Probably like the HT1000 but with more pixels if calibrated well, but Guy really has his HT1000 dialed in.

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post #8 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 10:11 PM
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It wasn't that earth shattering,according to Guy at 1X times screen width the screen door was obvious.

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post #9 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by S. Stogel
I'm not real familiar with the DLP PJs (I've got a 1251 that I'm considering upgrading to an 8" EM machine), but could I infer from this shootout that the BenQ 8700 would have fared basically the same as the Sharp? The one thing I do know is they're both WXGA resolution, both have the HD2+ chip (well, the BenQ is HD2, I believe...is that different than the HD2+?), and similar light output. Looks like the Sharp has a much better contrast ratio (5000:1 compared to 2000:1 for the BenQ, so perhaps that was why it seemingly fared so well).

So now the question is, upgrade to another CRT now, or wait a year and pick up the 8700 for <$3000?

Steve
My guess is that the BenQ would not quite be able to keep up with the Sharp. I think the Sharp is one of the best DLP's although I agree they (all HD2+ chip machines) are all pretty competitive.
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post #10 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 10:16 PM
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QQQ's spoon ....stirring the pot.

I dropped in this forum to see what's up since Guy's DIGI thread. I just knew there had to be the three big Q's and his notorious rubbing salt. \\\\

Don't let him get you guy's. Hug your CRT tonight with a little extra love.
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post #11 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by draganm
It wasn't that earth shattering,according to Guy at 1X times screen width the screen door was obvious.
I love to sit close, but if I had to choose between the CRT at 1x or the DLP at 1.5x, I would move back and use the DLP. Others would choose differently. For 1x I would probably use the SX21 with anamorphic lens since I know I prefer it in the bright scenes to the 11k for close viewing, but I think that one could use some more CR in a totally light controlled room.

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post #12 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 10:34 PM
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I saw a Sharp DLP locally, I'm not sure what model but the salesman said it cost $12K. It sure didn't look like what everyone from the test is describing. I really would like to see one set-up properly although I couldn't afford it even for $7.5K. It will be interesting to see how the market develops next.
Sitting 1.5x screen width isn't bad, I just like to sit closer.

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post #13 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 10:42 PM
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Hmm, apparently I sit just a bit further back than 1.5x screen width. So this makes me a good candidate for the Sharp 11k they were testing. Except this tiny little thing called a budget, which was really happy with a CRT. :D

Then there's my constant desire to tweak something, anything, just for the sake of saying I tweaked it for hours on end, rather than watching a movie. Yes, I hugged my CRT tonight, and watched a few Pixars, rather than holding my breath for the results of the shootout.

At least Guy Kuo knows what he is doing, and did what is most likely a very good comparsion of two projectors, much better than what you'd ever see in a store or a show like CEDIA.

Its just the pricetag is still killer! But so is a CRT falling on you from the ceiling. :)
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post #14 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 10:45 PM
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draganm,

Actually, from what Guy said, you could sit about 6 and a half feet away from an 80" image.

He said you had to get within 1x (80") to see SDE. How close "exactly" is up to speculation. Still, did you miss the rest of the thread?

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post #15 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by draganm
I saw a Sharp DLP locally, I'm not sure what model
Well, this is the David that slayeth Goliath (but I think all the 720p Sharps look the same).

http://members.cox.net/rw54741/11K.JPG
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post #16 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 10:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kysersose
draganm,

Actually, from what Guy said, you could sit about 6 and a half feet away from an 80" image.

He said you had to get within 1x (80") to see SDE. How close "exactly" is up to speculation. Still, did you miss the rest of the thread?
I just posted over there asking Guy to clarify the issue. But come on Kysersose! We both know if Guy says he had to sit less than 1.0 to see pixels draganm will just modify his position to say "but I like to sit .5 times from my CRT" ;).
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post #17 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Its just the pricetag is still killer! But so is a CRT falling on you from the ceiling.
Last time I checked 9" CRT's didn't come cheap. (Even the refurbished one's.) It sounds like that's what it will take to compete with the new DLP's.
Also, you don't need to spend cash on expensive scalers, the Momitsu will do just fine.

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post #18 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 11:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's what Guy said in response to my question:
Quote:
About 1.4, I could just make it out if I looked for it. At my usual 1.7, I couldn't see it if I tried. I think I could be as close as 1.5 to 1.6 and still be okay, but I didn't spend much time at that distance.
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post #19 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2

If anybody here is near Seattle and wants to prove digital wrong, I am willing to bring the 11k to compare to a CRT. One rule though, your CRT better look better than Guy's or it would be a waste of time, IMO. :)

--Darin
I see your throwin down the gauntlet :). Ok, I'm game, but this time let's compare both projectors using the same source. How about my HTPC with 9800 pro. I'll use the analog connector and you can use the DVI.

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post #20 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 11:39 PM
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of course the shootout was fair
and the crt won on dark scenes and shadow detail
and lost in some others
but how bad did it lose did the crt lose so dad that its worth giving
up the great blacks and Shadow and go digital
did the digital do so bad with blacks and shadow detail
its worth giving up the great daylight scenes with out heaving to use a high gain screen and go crt
i know i should read the thread and find out for myself
but i am lazy tonight

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post #21 of 500 Old 02-08-2004, 11:50 PM
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May I ask when(roughly) will used hd2+ projectors come down to the used 8" crt price range ? And how will crt prices be affected. When i see threads like this it gives me hope. maybe digital can devalue crts to the point that i could actually afford retubing my 9501 without flipping real estate.
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post #22 of 500 Old 02-09-2004, 12:00 AM
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ITS GOING TO PUSH THE PRICE DOWN
WAY DOWN
AND YOU CAN ALREADY BUY DLP PROJECTORS THAT BLOW
AWAY DIGITAL PROJECTORS OF A FEW YEARS AGO THAT COST OVER 20,000
FOR UNDER 8,000$$$$$

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post #23 of 500 Old 02-09-2004, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Smith
I see your throwin down the gauntlet :). Ok, I'm game, but this time let's compare both projectors using the same source. How about my HTPC with 9800 pro. I'll use the analog connector and you can use the DVI.
Sounds good. I'm guessing you are setup for HD since we could go 720p or something else from the PC. I have quite a bit of HD material on disks in firewire enclosures. "The Fifth Element" in HD might be a good test.

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post #24 of 500 Old 02-09-2004, 12:40 AM
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Question:
was the input source of the CRT (NEC) using an analog DVD player into the Faroudja 3000, and was the input source of the DLP projector DVI from the DVD player?

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post #25 of 500 Old 02-09-2004, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by xanatos
ITS GOING TO PUSH THE PRICE DOWN
WAY DOWN...
Cheaper CRTs?! WAHOO!!! :D

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post #26 of 500 Old 02-09-2004, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mp20748
Question:
was the input source of the CRT (NEC) using an analog DVD player into the Faroudja 3000, and was the input source of the DLP projector DVI from the DVD player?
I'm posting my answer here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...95#post3347695 to help consolidate things.

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post #27 of 500 Old 02-09-2004, 01:07 AM
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"Cheaper CRTs?! WAHOO!!!"

Yes, please, all you folks hoarding the creme of the crop crt pj's you should all go buy digital tomorrow and start selling your out of date crt's starting at $1 no reserve...
Make sure they all hit the market at once please and I prefer you offer Forward Air so shipping is reasonable.

Or you could just donate them... Hell if you can buy a $12,000 digital and just expect to write off $6000 the first year then why not?

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post #28 of 500 Old 02-09-2004, 02:56 AM
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It was clarfied that SDE was not an issue at 1.5-1.7 if I remember correctly. The 1.0 interpretation was a misunderstanding. Read the entire thread.

I think what the thread says very clearly is that the best dlps are very good. I blame crters for not acknowledging this. It also tells us what everyone knows that the crts have an edge in the very darkest scenses, but notice that we should say all dark scenes. As soon as there are a few light sources the ANSI contrast of dlp "shines".

I am also tired to hear that used crts are cheaper than digitals. They are ,but they are also used and with any used product there is a risk.

Finally can we decide to call digitals fixed pixel projectors. Even with crt there is a lot of digital involved.
1 dvd content
2 htpc or videoprocessors
3 digital chassi?

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post #29 of 500 Old 02-09-2004, 03:15 AM
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These threads are quite funny to read, though very little comes out of them.

I think the high-end DLP's are quite good and if I had the money I would have gotten a HD2 machine instead of my Barco 808.
With that said I love my 808 for producing a picture that are better in some respects and worse in others then the Marantz HD2 machine.
That to a pricetag five times cheaper then the Marantz.

For me the price has everything to do with it.
Why don't everyone by a new car instead of a used one ?
It's always a risk but sometimes you simply get better bang for the buck going the used route.
And how annoying wouldn't it be with a "dead on" pixel 4-5 months down the road, most manufacturers have quite dodgy policies regarding this issue. Some replace them under warranty, some do it if you got 3 or more pixels within a certain area and so on.

Anyway I'll continue using my lovely CRT until it blows up (or rather down on me :D) and then I'll choose what is best at that time.

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post #30 of 500 Old 02-09-2004, 04:40 AM
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Fredrik
It is very true the crt gives alot of performance for the asked price.

What I do not like is black and white comments such as
digitals suck period!!!! They are too common.

Mattias Ohlson
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