BLOG #2: Sony G70 and Sharp XV-Z11000 Comparison - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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At 2 PM Pacific (GST + 8 hours) today, Sunday, February 15, 2004 Steve Smith will host a comparison of a Sony G70 and the Sharp XV-Z110000 projectors. This is the second CRT and DLP comparison event which we will attempt to report in BLOG fashion. Join us and enjoy as we muddle through. This forum thread will hold the event commentary. Last time the digital forum was the venue.

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post #2 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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With any luck we'll won't have any technical glitches with the wi-fi network. I'm bringing four laptops so we'll have plent of access for those present. It all depends on how busy we are during the event. Not everyone is as willing to write their thoughts as we go along. Please bear with us. We don't get paid for this, but ARE planning to have some fun while we compare.

Now to pack up everything and go pick up the most important supplies for the event - Krispee Kreme donuts.

Hopefully see you all on line in a few.

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post #3 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 12:18 PM
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Have fun guys, that really what it's all about.

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post #4 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 01:33 PM
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Hi Guys,

Curt just left my house for the shootout.....Can't wait to see how Steve's G70 fare's.......
I recently had a G70 that I put 3 new factory tubes in, so I know what THAT looks like!
Have fun!

Drew

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post #5 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 01:54 PM
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How long until the start in actual hours?
The UK is normally about 5 hours ahead, but all this GST time has thrown me!

In the mean time... :D

I don't believe there can be any winners in this comparison.

Until this latest generation of HD2+ DLP, CRT of any description (7" onwards) would probably win outright.
This was mainly due to the fact that we could tell when we were looking at a digital projector.

I could spot the artificial colours and lack of subtle variations on hues.
All the attention seems to be on Ansi contrast, but i see the improvement in these areas(colour/subtleties) as the biggest improvement.

As it stands now, is as i said above "no winners". I don't mean it like there can be any harm that comes from this comparison. Rather that each projector will shine in different areas. So no "outright" winner!

I stopped posting in the "OTHER" thread due to some "unreasonable" arguments.
But one thing about that thread, is the large amount of people suggesting ways to improve "Goliath" sorry CRT for tonights show. Anybody else notice zero posts about how to improve "David" sorry the "Sharp" for tonights show? :)
There is something in that point alone!

The Atlanta guys have posted invites for somebody to bring a 12K for a shootout.
This is great, that they actually feel it wouldn't be wasting their time.
This time last year, the very thought of a similar comparison would have been laughable!

My personal view is the Sharp11K/12K and the Marantz S3 are very very good indeed.
And they are a true alternative to a good 8" CRT.
However i still don't think they are better than a 8"+, just an alternative.

It has been mentioned that it would be interesting to hear the views from a 12K owner after they have lived with it for a while.

I bought my Marantz S3 HD2+ DLP three months ago (19-11-03).
I still own a Barco808s CRT.
I was going to go with a Barco1209s.

Well i'm still being amazed day in day out with the S3.
It is getting almost daily use, and instead of me noticing more artifacts i'm actually getting less!
This is down to getting used to the settings, and beginning to use "DVI".
Film grain is a big problem now, as the S3 uses a very sharp lens.
In fact i would say the leap in sharpness from the 808s is like i have already gone to HD!
The extra detail in things like textures is worth the loss of "fade to black".
As already mentioned, the blacks are better than the 808s as long as there is some light in a scene, and shadow detail is great.
When there is a lot of light in a scene, the S3 is streets ahead with stunning /black/shadow detail.

But i would have gotten most of the same kind of leap in performance if i had gone for a 1209s.
As for a Cine9/G90 well lets be sensible, there isn't a digital out yet to reach for that crown!
If i won the lottery, yep a Cine9/G90 would still be my first choice(quad-stacked of course!- ie double side stacked...ART you know you want too!)
So for those CRT owners that for some strange reason are getting rattled, lighten up. This advancement in DLP isn't going to stop you buying CRT. It just gives us that wanted a good image without the hassle at least a decent choice! ;)

I can resist everything....except temptation
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post #6 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 02:02 PM
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Interesting :)

Would it be possible to feed the Sharp with a 1280x720@48Hz or 72Hz Signal?

I downloaded the manual of the 12k and while it lists several refresh rates (including 72Hz) at different resulutions, DTV with 720p is only listed at 60Hz and 50Hz. The important thing is the slowdown or speedup of the colorwheel.

If you have the possibility to try it, it would be nice, as this would be a dealbreaker for me if it doesn't work.

I'll also try to call Sharp tomorrow and see what they have to say about it.

If 48Hz or 72Hz will indeed work with the unit, I'll just order one from japan and put it up against my Barco 1209 and use it as a second projector. Otherwise, I'll have to try to get my hands onto a unit, that I can use over a weekend for comparison.

- Stephan
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post #7 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by fulabeer
How long until the start in actual hours?
The UK is normally about 5 hours ahead, but all this GST time has thrown me!
Fulabeer,
PST is 8 hours behind UK time.
Paul
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post #8 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 02:09 PM
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I suspect that the G70 might just win. Nothing to do with it's ability though, just the mind power of all those CRTers!
That how planes take off, it's those passengers onboard urging it off the ground!:D

Stephen, i've tried 1280x720p@48hz on the S3 and it works fine, which means there should be zero tearing from framerate conversion.
I was expecting some sort of flickering, but the image remains solid.;)

Paul, so that means about 10pm then?...thanks!

I can resist everything....except temptation
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post #9 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Stephen, i've tried 1280x720p@48hz on the S3 and it works fine, which means there should be zero tearing from framerate conversion.
I was expecting some sort of flickering, but the image remains solid.
I know the S3 can do 48Hz, it actually slows down the color wheel, while 72Hz is converted back to 60Hz.

48Hz is important to me for one reason, remove NTSC motion artifacts, that are already in the source. Drop the 3:2 to 2:2 or pull it to 3:3 for 72Hz. Either will be fine for me as long as it's a full multiple of the original 24fps from film.

It's not that I'm not happy with CRT, but I want to do something that can't be done by a CRT. I'd like to have a 2.35:1 constant height screen, somewhere between 70" and 80" (between 164.5" and 188" wide @2.35:1). It should be perforated so I can place the speakers behind the screen and should have perforated side masking.

The S3 would perfectly work for me, as it does 48Hz. But since all DLPs only do 720p and can't display de-interlaced material from 1080i sources (at least not without loss of resolution), it's a big no-no for it's price.

The Sharp is really cheap in japan and it wouldn't hurt me if I order one and then end up using it as a second or party projector.
The S3 would cost me an additional €2500,- and I consider that too expensive for a 720p projector, that I'll sell anyway once 1080p is out.

- Stephan
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post #10 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Network is now up. Curt Palme was already here and Darin is just now arriving.

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post #11 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Darin, "I'm driving down the road was thinking I brought a lot of stuff, but then I realized I left the main part of my PC."

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post #12 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:27 PM
 
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Maybe a low-light capable video camera feeding into a webcam-ish PC setup for a live video feed of the action!?!
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post #13 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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ChrisWiggles is now here.

We're just looking at the Nascar feed as stuff is being brought in.

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post #14 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:37 PM
 
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Is it me or am I seeing a slight convergence issue on the lower-left hand corner of Steve's Sony? I also thought I observed a rainbow or two.



Ok, this will get me ignored. But, before that happens, can someone tell me if this is going to be a case in which the screen is getting shared in a manner in which one projected image is conducted at a time, or will it be split, like I suggested last week?
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post #15 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Steve's screen is 96 inch wide Stewart 1.5 gain. We're about to watch Coral Reef Adventure WMV HD on the G70.

As the title screens play, I can see some light scatter in the black backgrounds, but as usual the overall picture on his machine looks quite richly colored.

Guy Kuo
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post #16 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:45 PM
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So here we are, Krispy Kreme donuts in hand (thanks Guy!)

You know, every time I go to someone's HT system that is well set up., I realize how inadequate mine is.

I have to go publicly on record here that Steve's G 70 set up has forever changed my mind about the color rendition of the G 70 I'll never bash it again!

Will I pull uot my XG no, but this G 70 driven by a 3 Ghz HTPC kicks some serious butt!

NOte that I'll have a bunch of typos, I'm not good at typing in the dark.

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post #17 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:48 PM
 
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Curt, typing 'in the dark and with sticky fingers' ...
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post #18 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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The gradients on blue in the underwater scenes doesn't appear to have any banding on the G70. We'll pay attention for that on the Sharp when we switch over.

There is a flickering in some scenes which we don't know is in the source or the system.

Guy Kuo
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post #19 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:50 PM
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So since I'm constantly buried in bad modules and burnt tubes, I'm not up at all on the latest software and hardware out there. This is the first time I've seen the WMD DVD, and OK, those of you familiat with cutting edge DVD's win, you CAN do better than a high end scaler and a regular DVD player.


I REALLY need to get out more, or at least spend a bit of time in other forums to keep current.

I feel so inadequate and like such a newbie here..:(

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post #20 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:50 PM
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This should be interesting. Bless you curt for attending !

starting to chant: CRT CRT CRT CRT
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post #21 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:51 PM
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Well, I've been here an hour and I have to say, the DLP has perfect blacks. Darin is still setting it up..:)

Curt

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post #22 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:58 PM
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Could someone post an explanation of exactly how everything is connected and being routed to each projector, what the associated equipment is etc.

Thank you everyone for your efforts. This is fun.
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post #23 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:58 PM
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Wondering if Alan can tell how many of us a locked on this thread ?

In any case, better than Janet Jackson's ratings I'll bet.
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post #24 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:58 PM
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Funny, we just watched about 20 minutes of Coral Reef, which his a pretty dark underwater movie, and after the credits which ran on a black background, the desktop was pure white.

Ouch!

Complaint: the G 70 is too bright!

You might laugh, but we all squinted as the all white screen came up..:)

Curt

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post #25 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Actually, he's setting it up in the dark.

End of Chapter 5 of Boys and Girls is now playing via DVD. We're examing fleshtones and they look quite realistic on the G70. I do note some washout in the bright scenes, but once APL drops the scenes clean up considerably.

I'm thinking the distributor of this film is seeing an inexplicable bump is sales of this disc. Darin tried to get it and it was out of stock.

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post #26 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 04:01 PM
 
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its actually not super bright, its perfectly set. Ive seen the qualia sxrd, and THAT thing is bright. this looks very nice though, and very 3d so far.

The spill even with an LC pj is significant, moreso than I recall seeing in the past.
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post #27 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 04:04 PM
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I think Guy is posting as to the equipment list. The room itself is well laid out, black carpeting on the floor and ceilingfrom the screen to about 4' forward. Does that ever eliminate ceilng reflections..

Steve's projector is recessed into the ceiling, with only th elenses sticking out. Cooling is circulatingthru ducting and a fan back into the room.

Most impressive is Darin's double Rubbermaid container stack to position the Sharp above the couch.

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post #28 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 04:06 PM
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So the no-power-cord tweak helps with DLP black levels. Interesting.

-MM
"None more black"
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post #29 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll leave it to Steve and Darin to explain the connections and hardware. The Sharp is now being connected to Steve's HTPC via DVI-D.

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post #30 of 588 Old 02-15-2004, 04:08 PM
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We've all agreed that Darin bringing a DLP into the mix makes this CRT shootout unfair (Darin's comment)

Curt

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