NEC Setup - Newbie step by step help...? The main thread begins. - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 78 Old 02-17-2004, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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The guides are great and the manuals are extensive...but I hope I am not the only one who cannot even get past step one.
I hope this thread becomes solid answers to stupid questions about NEC and other setups for absolute newbies.
I would rather take longer setting it up and know what and why I am doing - than guess and end up frustrated to no end.
If the opinion here is "ya got to do it to learn it, we cant hold your hand" I will understand.

Should this thread come to life - lets keep it on topic and to the point.
I guess we would not need the history of each setting - but a "do this like this now" type of reponse. Who knows, maybe one day someone will maje a pdf out of this like they have for Guys guide and Curts guides.

Question 1. The ZERO issue.
What is the correct button sequence to set each option to ZERO.
Does it mean ZERO - Does it mean factory setting...is factory setting good and considered a clean slate for a new setup? Is 50 supposed to be zero for some items?

Question 2. The 16:9 conundrum.
Part One:
Example: PC set to 16:9 at 1280 x 720 - new input setup is saved. Projector appears to shoot out 4:3 with this setup no matter what I do. Example - my taskbar is off the screen by 10" at the bottom.
What is the process needed to get to 16:9 showing correctly on a 16:9 screen without running setting up too high (on NEC)
Assuming its possible does the linearity and everything work out fine within this 16:9 setup? Terry said use the SHIFT and SIZE I think? At what step would I do this - would I do it with a desktop or with a pattern generated by the PC?
Part Two:
If the distances are calculated for 4:3 - how is that effected when you go 16:9 - I ask because one source says go width and use original calculations from that. But I saw another source that said divide difference by .75 or something like that???
Better to ask and be sure than be wrong with physical setup.

Question 3: PHASE (I know this was just posted)
(Disclaimer: I have not "zeroed" as far as I can tell.)
If I hit the phase button I see a crosshatch pattern with bent lines, crooked overall, running off the raster or screen and the bump in the middle.
What in the h*** are we supposed to do with that?

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
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post #2 of 78 Old 02-18-2004, 09:57 AM
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Hi Mike

I don't consider myself to be qualified to talk you through a set up, but Tinman and feather's "Mechanical set up procedure for NEC PG series" worked best for me - it certainly covers questions 1 and 3 for you. I don't know how to put the link in to the thread, but if you PM me I can e-mail it to you.

Mark
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post #3 of 78 Old 02-18-2004, 10:49 AM
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Mike,

Regarding Question 2:

If you are running 1280 x 720, your computer output is proportioned correctly. If your desktop is running off the top and bottom of the screen, you need to adjust vertical amplitude and possibly linearity to fit the image to the screen. Check this by displaying a circle (generated from the HTPC or other source). Does the circle look round, or is it stretched vertically? Put in a movie that you know is 16:9 format. It should fit the screen. Hopefully this is a help.

Pete
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post #4 of 78 Old 02-18-2004, 02:11 PM
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I have found that to get back to a factory setting that you have to use "ctrl + nomal" when the setting is on the screen, you then get asked if you want to load or cancel, and you're supposed to select "cancel". THat's what needs to be done to normalize everything, don't forget to normalize astig and focus as well.

Phase centers the built in test patterns overtop of your source material. Not important if you use a dvd to check your convergence, etc etc....

16:9 conundrum....is just that, a conundrum. To do it properly you'll probably have to use a custom resolution to fit your screen....I think powerstrip is a necessity here.

As for distance...just setup no closer than 1/4" from the edje of the tubes and position the projector accordingly to fill your screen. The most important measurement here is the 1/4", any closer and you'll be in trouble eventually.

Ben
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post #5 of 78 Old 02-18-2004, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by pwentz3l
Mike,

Regarding Question 2:

If you are running 1280 x 720, your computer output is proportioned correctly. If your desktop is running off the top and bottom of the screen, you need to adjust vertical amplitude and possibly linearity to fit the image to the screen. Check this by displaying a circle (generated from the HTPC or other source). Does the circle look round, or is it stretched vertically? Put in a movie that you know is 16:9 format. It should fit the screen. Hopefully this is a help.

Pete
Ok - first major setup issue arises - I will wait for answer rather than screwing up my perfect measurements.

I set it up according to the width -

I even made sure it was correct height on the stand to bottom and made sure it was square to the screen using screws at each front corner.

I then leveled off each side using a level on the handles and even tried to level across the top to make sure it was level both ways.

So - I throw up a green cross hair and I am good 10" off lower than center and 10" off to the right of dead center on screen.

Visually my green tube is lined up as well with the screen center.

I thought I had zeroed everything out.

I will go and setup a new input and try and make sure I zero out things again.

Now at this point some guides say play with my stand - but why would I if I am sure I am square and properly distanced?

What would most likely be the cause?

I also notice using static I cannot correct enough to get me dead center.

How can this happen with such careful measuring?

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
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post #6 of 78 Old 02-18-2004, 04:22 PM
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Mike,

Zeroing things out don't mean you are putting them back in the center. Especially when it comes to Raster Centering and Static. And I don't see anywhere up above where you said you centered the rasters.

Put the Static controls in the middle of their range and save for all three colors.
Not turn down the contrast, put up the course grid pattern, look into the tubes and using the Raster Center adjustment, make sute the raster is centered on the tube. Turn your Brightness up a but so you can see the raster.

Once the rasters are centered, then look at where the crosshatch is located. Left Right it should be close, if not move the PJ. Up down will depend on whether you have the PJ located at the correct height that the manual says for your orientation. If it's off just a few inches, use the adjustable legs to get it centered.

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post #7 of 78 Old 02-18-2004, 04:33 PM
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Reply to Q:3 Phase.
This one had me pulling my nose hair out for relief,I was in exactly the same situation your in at the moment,only being able to get the crosshatch one and wondering if I was going crazy.
It appears there are TWO different PHASE pages,the second of these is the CURSOR PHASE which has the crosshair patten,this is the one you use to center the internal test patterns to the signal.
I can recall exactly how I got their -{ANYBODY?}
I think it was-Phase-enter-enter again
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post #8 of 78 Old 02-18-2004, 05:12 PM
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From my recollection, Phase was just about the only thing that I couldn't find any detailed information on in the setup manual.

Sean
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post #9 of 78 Old 02-18-2004, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Phase centers the built in test patterns overtop of your source material. Not important if you use a dvd to check your convergence, etc etc....
This is so WRONG!!!! (sorry, but it just is :rolleyes: )

Phase is the first thing you should adjust after you normalize your settings and set the green raster position to 0,0.

The phase control effects just about every convergence waveform in the projector!

Turn off the red and blue tubes first. Then, use the cursor buttons to center the center of the center vertical crosshatch line (the one with the rectangular box)and the convergence buttons to center the bump on the center line. You also need to pay attention to the knee of the diagonal lines on both side of the image. (It helps if you put a piece of quick release tape at the exact center point of your screen.)

And, BTW, phase is NOT copied from one memory location to another if you use the memory copy.

And, it's going to ba a different set of values for every different scan frequency you feed your projector!

I strongly recommend that you find someone in your area with experience to do the initial setup.

And, BTW, the distance charts that NEC uses are way too conservative.

I have had to replace two full sets of NEC CRT's (two different projectors) because of burnt CRT's. The burnt CRT's have at least 2.5" of horizontal phospher area that have never been used!

Vern
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post #10 of 78 Old 02-18-2004, 07:02 PM
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Does increasing the raster size require a voltage change?
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post #11 of 78 Old 02-18-2004, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vern Dias
This is so WRONG!!!! (sorry, but it just is :rolleyes: )
another if you use the memory copy.

And, it's going to ba a different set of values for every different scan frequency you feed your projector!

I strongly recommend that you find someone in your area with experience to do the initial setup.

And, BTW, the distance charts that NEC uses are way too conservative.

I have had to replace two full sets of NEC CRT's (two different projectors) because of burnt CRT's. The burnt CRT's have at least 2.5" of horizontal phospher area that have never been used!

Vern
Ok - I made some major progress tonight thanks to a direct email real time feed to J Robbo - So thanks J !

I am using Terrys Guide as posted here for me previously...but I was lost on Phase and Raster.

J walked me thru it with an excellent explanation of how to use Phase in 10 seconds.

Terry your right - although my distance and square to screen measurements were dead on - I had not zeroed out all the functions.

I was able to get a lot done tonight.
Built stand for PJ.
Centered, squared, leveled PJ on stand to screen within 1/8".
Created new input at 1280 x 720 and erased all other saved inputs to avoid confusion.
Centered raster first by remote default setting and then later by eye.
Set Phase twice...second time after doing raster.
Centered up green crosshair.
Moved B and R rasters visually via remote to match the G raster vertically.
Toe'd in the R and B Lenses to match G at center.
Got real good with the remote quickly.

A very productive evening.

With a lot more work I should be able to get it running well. I intend to take Terry's, Guy's and J Robbos guides and rework them from the perspective of a total newbie. Hopefully it will become an archive item.

I dont think the rasters are maximized and I do not intend to change them due to 4:3 wear at 7500 hours.

Thanks so far everyone. I will be posting everything as I go along.

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
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post #12 of 78 Old 02-18-2004, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by blackwiggle
Reply to Q:3 Phase.
This one had me pulling my nose hair out for relief,I was in exactly the same situation your in at the moment,only being able to get the crosshatch one and wondering if I was going crazy.
It appears there are TWO different PHASE pages,the second of these is the CURSOR PHASE which has the crosshair patten,this is the one you use to center the internal test patterns to the signal.
I can recall exactly how I got their -{ANYBODY?}
I think it was-Phase-enter-enter again
Your so right.

This one had me doubting I would KEEP MY CRT!
J Robbo explained it to me so quickly and so well I had it set in minutes.
What a difference a simple explanation of do this and do that made.

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
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post #13 of 78 Old 02-18-2004, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vern Dias
This is so WRONG!!!! (sorry, but it just is :rolleyes: )

Phase is the first thing you should adjust after you normalize your settings and set the green raster position to 0,0.

The phase control effects just about every convergence waveform in the projector!
I strongly recommend that you find someone in your area with experience to do the initial setup.

And, BTW, the distance charts that NEC uses are way too conservative.

I have had to replace two full sets of NEC CRT's (two different projectors) because of burnt CRT's. The burnt CRT's have at least 2.5" of horizontal phospher area that have never been used!

Vern
Your right Phase is very important and almost completely unexplained by NEC's service manual and some DIY guides.

Also, I now completely understand why Guy Kuo recommends physical alignment of tubes - raster measuring via the face - and other setup tweaks.
Every step you can do better makes the rest easier and more precise.

I am not opposed to hiring a pro - I called one today and as I expected I did not get a call back. Highly recommended local but I was taold hard to get a hold of or make an appointment with.

I would hire a reasonably priced pro just to learn from seeing him work.

This process certainly wont hurt to learn - even though I may be a digital guy someday.

But who knows - if I get good enough maybe I can pop in some tubes and go another 7 years with it!

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
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post #14 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 02:53 AM
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I would have been stuffed without Jrobbo's help, and my NEC is not my first CRT. They are tricky, especially for a first timer, but the result is worth it.
Lucky for me he lives 10 minutes away :-)

BTW J stands for John.

Who knows, you may catch the bug and they'll have to prise your CRT out of your cold dead fingers.

Kristoff, it may require a voltage change, but not until you are aware of all the potential issues. It certainly woudn't hurt to check yours to see if it's in spec to start with.

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post #15 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 02:55 AM
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To mikecazz
Being a newbie to NEC crts myself {but have had others} I did what everybody,including yourself did and got Guy kudos,Tinman and Feathers and all the other posts I could find on the subject.
For all intended purposes all these guides have their merits,where the total newbie is left wanting,{especially with NEC crts} is the saying Read Your Installation Guide.{which can be deemed as clear as mud in some places-PHASE is non existant in the Installation manual}
Now ,for all you guys that write these guides {A total BIG THANK YOU}.

May I suggest a test for you?

Get a TOTAL newbie,give them a out of whack{for argument sake an NEC 6pg}then give them the NEC installation guide and your setup guides and see how far they get.
You won't be allowed to help them!
Not even which buttons to press on the setup remote-{I think this is where most problems/confusion set in}

I think you might soon see how what is blatantly obvious to you is a total mystery to the newbie.
It could only help both the setup guide writers and the newbies.
{I feel sorry for anybody who might donate a 6pg for this experiment,but that's experiments for you!}

Anybody up for the challenge?
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post #16 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 03:02 AM
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Bribe some of the HTC Sydney guys with beer and a bbq Blackwiggle.

Jrobbo showed me hands on - there is no substitute.

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post #17 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 03:11 AM
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Mark, I have no idea how to check to see if it's in spec or not - wouldn't have a clue :)

I do know that I have a HUGE amount of space left on the tube face, but I haven't changed the raster size for fear of frying things.

Why can't you guys be in Brisbane? :)
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post #18 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 03:29 AM
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I agree there would be nothing simpler than having somebody come around and show you how to do it.

There is only one problem with that,and that is the information only REALLY sinks in when you have learn't to do it yourself,other wise you are likely to be always wondering if you are imposing on somebody with a stupid question at the wrong time.

Besides,it's not about my personal ability to fathom the intricacies of an NEC {after finding that there is TWO PHASE pages-which NOBODY seems to have mentioned before-or how to get to the second one-ditto}{by the way-once I got that sucker licked it's all going fine}

No my last post was intended for those,who without access to knowledgeable people,those who rely solely on the downloads and the threads and the setup guides.

Why not try to get a BETTER bible to crt setup?

Wouldn't everybody benefit in the end?
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post #19 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 03:51 AM
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By the way
Is there anyway one can lubricate the various tabs on the centring and astig coils so that when you move one the others dont move.
It seems to be a annoying problem that I'm suffering on my quest for perfection.

I don't want to try it before I get a answer from somebody that works with these things,but,could you use Electrolube-contact cleaner lubricant?

If not ,what is suitable?
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post #20 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 04:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by blackwiggle
To mikecazz
Being a newbie to NEC crts myself {but have had others} I did what everybody,including yourself did and got Guy kudos,Tinman and Feathers and all the other posts I could find on the subject.
For all intended purposes all these guides have their merits,where the total newbie is left wanting,{especially with NEC crts} is the saying Read Your Installation Guide.{which can be deemed as clear as mud in some places-PHASE is non existant in the Installation manual}
Now ,for all you guys that write these guides {A total BIG THANK YOU}.

May I suggest a test for you?

Get a TOTAL newbie,give them a out of whack{for argument sake an NEC 6pg}then give them the NEC installation guide and your setup guides and see how far they get.
You won't be allowed to help them!
Not even which buttons to press on the setup remote-{I think this is where most problems/confusion set in}

I think you might soon see how what is blatantly obvious to you is a total mystery to the newbie.
It could only help both the setup guide writers and the newbies.
{I feel sorry for anybody who might donate a 6pg for this experiment,but that's experiments for you!}

Anybody up for the challenge?
That was the intent of this thread which seems to be deviating away a bit from the setup issues.

I figured after I found solutions and people helped the thred in itself would become a guide.

I hope to go back and combine the guides along with my perspective as a completely lost novice to get an NEC guide going that speaks to the lost newbie.

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
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post #21 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 04:55 AM
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There are a set of big heavy wires for each tube inside that have to be moved around depending upon ceiling or floor, rear or front projection 1st.

Do not touch the G2 controls at all unless you have been thoroughly advised of problems and risks and feel qualified to do it. They are very touchy.

Prior to adjusting the focus coils and astig/centering rings, you should perform a degauss cycle.

I hope in all of your centering and normalization, that you adjusted the all of the electronic potentiometers, variable caps and other controls to their "Center" positions (which for some controls is either far Clocwise or counterclockwise). If you feel unqualified to do this, please do not just randomly turn the knobs inside. 1st mark (sometimes with a dot of white out or nail polish the position of each before playing with any of them. Some of them can be dangerous (e.g. width and height) if you exceed the edge of the tube, so be real sure you understand what you are doing.

All of these controls need to be "centered" (as well as all of the software menu controls) before you can do the mechanical turning of the focus coils (occasionally needed, but not likely), the astig and centering magnetic rings.to alighn the green tube.

Then you have to adjust the tilt-in and scheimenflug (may not be spelled right and sometimes called flapping) of the left and right tubes and the scheimenflug of the center tube. Do at least a rough focus.

Many of these are an interative process, so you may have to go back and change them again as well.

Then it's the whole process of convergence which is a whole giant can-of-worms.



Of course, all of this may have to be done backwards when you are Down Under, or is that just toilets? ;)

Regards,

Ira

CRT'ing since Feb 1987
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post #22 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 06:27 AM
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No.
Just while we are standing on our heads!
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post #23 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 01:23 PM
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Ira, that is DANGEROUS.

Do NOT touch ANY potentiometers on a NEC. Some are so touchy that marking them is absolutely pointless.
The only possible exception is checking the width pot and adjusting that to spec. There are recent threads covering this procedure for a PG - XG is different, but the info is here too.

When the guides refer to zeroing the the controls, they're talking about the menu driven ones only.

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post #24 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_A_W
Ira, that is DANGEROUS.

Do NOT touch ANY potentiometers on a NEC. Some are so touchy that marking them is absolutely pointless.
The only possible exception is checking the width pot and adjusting that to spec. There are recent threads covering this procedure for a PG - XG is different, but the info is here too.

When the guides refer to zeroing the the controls, they're talking about the menu driven ones only.
I am not touching pots.

I will be starting my newbie guide tonight as far as I got so far - and will let people tell me what to add.

I will add to it as I go along.

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
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post #25 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 01:32 PM
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Let me second that notion! There are very few pots on the NEX XGs that can be eyeballed. The others require specific test patterns, osciloscopes and volt meters to set.

If you start turning pots you stand a good chance of loosing your reference settings and will never get white balance and greyscale back using the digital controls until the analog adjustments are re-scoped!
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post #26 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by pwentz3l
Mike,

Regarding Question 2:

If you are running 1280 x 720, your computer output is proportioned correctly. If your desktop is running off the top and bottom of the screen, you need to adjust vertical amplitude and possibly linearity to fit the image to the screen. Check this by displaying a circle (generated from the HTPC or other source). Does the circle look round, or is it stretched vertically? Put in a movie that you know is 16:9 format. It should fit the screen. Hopefully this is a help.

Pete
I got the rasters centered, phase fixed - I got the cross in the center.

Now I trying to get the cross course on the screen perfectly and it is way too far right and I cannot correct for it.

Do I need to have the very end tip of the lines at the very edge of the screen or do I need to have the last row of intersecting lines at the screen edge?

If I setup properly - why am I so far off on cross course?

By the way - moving it around forces me to max out left movement and then I notice my dvd picture goes really far left and the cross course can barely get to left side.

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
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post #27 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 02:34 PM
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While I agree that many of the pots can not be "eyeballed", newbie's often end up playing with them all anyway. By putting a dot on them, they at least have a rough estimate of where the settings were to get back to at least something reasonable.

But there are are settings that you can't do without setting pots 1st. The rest of it is for naught if they are off by significant amounts. Raster width, Height are just some of the things that need to be eventually done, particularly if setting up for something other than 4:3

With the exception of G2, I don't believe any on my DP1200S or my PG 9200 are what I'd call particularly sensitive, but I certainly also mentioned (several times!!) that you really also need to know what you are doing as well, Even normalizing or software settings can destroy your projector just as easily as physical settings.

Regards,

Ira

CRT'ing since Feb 1987
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post #28 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 02:36 PM
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Mike,

It sounds like you are using the internally generated signals?? If so, these do not adhere to the resolution that you have set as far as amplitude. If phase was done correctly, it should line up with an externally generated pattern. i.e. the centers should be in the same place. What happens if you play a DVD and then fit that image to the screen? Make sure it is 16:9 ratio and not 2.35:1.

Guy is a fan of doing your alignment and convergence using an external source, e.g. a pattern from AVIA or VE. I also have a NEC test pattern program that I keep on my desktop and use it for quick work. It probably is not as clean as my AVIA disk though.

You could try adjusting phase until both patterns align. Try this, analyze the steps, see if they make sense and then fill us in. I would try it, but my projector is on the floor of a spare bedroom while I tape/mud and paint my theater.

Pete
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post #29 of 78 Old 02-19-2004, 11:32 PM
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mikecazzx,

" Robbo explained it to me so quickly and so well I had it set in minutes.
What a difference a simple explanation of do this and do that made."

Could you pass on this explanation?
Please.

Big screen = 10 feet, anything less is just tv!
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post #30 of 78 Old 02-20-2004, 04:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by pwentz3l
Mike,

It sounds like you are using the internally generated signals?? If so, these do not adhere to the resolution that you have set as far as amplitude. If phase was done correctly, it should line up with an externally generated pattern. i.e. the centers should be in the same place. What happens if you play a DVD and then fit that image to the screen? Make sure it is 16:9 ratio and not 2.35:1.

Guy is a fan of doing your alignment and convergence using an external source, e.g. a pattern from AVIA or VE. I also have a NEC test pattern program that I keep on my desktop and use it for quick work. It probably is not as clean as my AVIA disk though.

You could try adjusting phase until both patterns align. Try this, analyze the steps, see if they make sense and then fill us in. I would try it, but my projector is on the floor of a spare bedroom while I tape/mud and paint my theater.

Pete
Yes, I believe J Robbo was saying the phase setup would get the internal patterns correct - thereby making it ok to use them on an NEC XG.
Here is what he said exactly
"Yep, I'd suggest that using the internal patterns is the only way to go until you become more familiar with the projector"


I think Guy however is saying 100% the opposite - he also blamed it on the internal patterns.

I have AVIA Guide to Home Theatre - will this have the patterns I need?

I also have the NEC test pattern program on the pc - will this work as well?

I was able to get a dvd movie centered - I still had space around all the edges and quite a bit of it - but it was at least equal space.

The internal patters however never fit the screen correctly.

Guy, or anyone - on an NEC XG 110 is it going to be necessary to physically MOVE the tubes inside as mentioned in Guys guide? Physical alignment?

Or

Can I get away with just centering the rasters visually and using toe in to setup and also then using red and blue raster movement to align on green.

I was trying to avoid taking the lenses off and especially loosening tubes etc.

I will start a post here of every step I did so we can trade where I flubbed it.

"Thank you" to the forum members who tirelessly help the new members of this fraternity we call Home Theater.
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