What is the best CRT Projector out there - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1331 Old 02-29-2004, 10:32 AM
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filecat13,

I think you might have made a mistake. Did you mean to say that SDG 900 Plus could whip the Sony 1292? The 1292, when new, put out a picture that could compete with virtually any top of the line 9" projectors (not including the G90 of course). That's not to say it is also probably the noisiest projector ever made also.

The problem with so many comparisons on the forum seem to be skewed by people giving their opinions based on old or worn projectors getting compared to new or re-tubed projectors that have been tweaked up the kazoo. What made the G70 comparison interesting was that it was a fairly low tube hour unit (2000 hours). If it had been a 7000 hour unit, the results probably would have been useless. In addition, as has been pointed out, when making comparisons, the same processing equipment should be used to avoid more misleading results.

Bruce

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post #182 of 1331 Old 02-29-2004, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcorsyscom
Yep. Tom Cruise is mad at People magazine for the same thing...
he married Nicole Kidman because she rated so high on the "Most Beautiful People" list, then a couple of years later she fell a couple of notches.
So he dumped her.
Now she's back up on their list, so he's wanting her back...

From now on, Tom Cruise will read People magazine with a grain of salt.
You're a little confused, SHE dumped him. She must have gotten tired bending over for a midget.

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post #183 of 1331 Old 02-29-2004, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by techman707
filecat13,

I think you might have made a mistake. Did you mean to say that SDG 900 Plus could whip the Sony 1292? The 1292, when new, put out a picture that could compete with virtually any top of the line 9" projectors (not including the G90 of course). That's not to say it is also probably the noisiest projector ever made also. Bruce
Yeah, 1272 is what I meant. I've corrected the post. The SDG 900 Plus is an 8" machine.

You're right, the 1292 is a very noisy beast, and I've frankly never seen one that was well set up, so overall it was intolerable. I've seen two, and in their current set up, I'd prefer my SVD 500 Plus. However, if someone wanted to trade me their poorly set up 1292 for my Seleco, I'd consider it.;)

What I can afford, when I can afford it...
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post #184 of 1331 Old 02-29-2004, 11:21 AM
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A lot of people on AVS have strong bias' toward whatever pj they own. That's fine, but like the Chevy-Ford thing, it's not based on fact. It's like your favorite football team. In your mind they're usually a lot better than they really are. Mike I think you suffer from this a little. I can't recall anyone ever rating the 8500 higher than the XG.

For the record, I'm not attached at the hip to my G70. I'm not championing it's cause because I own one. If I knew what I know now when I bought my pj, I'd probably buy a 9500 or G90 (a 1209 would be on my list as well, but I'm leery of the reliability issues). At this point I'm happy enough with my G70 that I'm not going to go to the trouble of changing pjs until my current pj bites the bullet. I must say, I'm really, REALLY glad I didn't waste the time and money switching to an XG.

My comments are motivated by the undue criticism that the G70 has endured and continues to endure. It was universally bashed for bad color. It wasn't a few people, it was virtually everyone. It was the in vogue thing to do. Now it's sharpness. But that was never the case before everyone had to concede that the colors were as good as the XGs. As best I can remember, it's had a good rep in that regard. If it's truly lacking in sharpness, then I would willingly accept that. But there's an unwarranted bias against the G70, and now that I know that, I can't help but be skeptical of any comments made about it.

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post #185 of 1331 Old 02-29-2004, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Guy Kuo
I'd caution against trying to obtain a A vs B vs C type of comparison from the BLOG events. There simply are too many variables and indirect data to arrive at an NEC XGLC vs Sony G70 rating.
Guy,
So true, even if both were new out of the box, on the same screen and being fed the same signal the variable would be the difference in set up and knowing how to get the most out of each model. This is where the Infocom shoot off came in.

Then theres also the variable of the viewers preference times how many are viewing. This is where the Infocom voter survey came in to judge the best image in each category. Thats a lot of variables, how many thousand's would you guess passed through there to make their vote? Doug

14,000 went threw the Shoot-off in 2000, earlier years were better
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post #186 of 1331 Old 02-29-2004, 11:52 AM
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I agree too, though the color analyzer results can be taken as fact. The G70 might measure even better in Guy's HT, but it already had virtually perfect readings, so there's really no room for improvement.

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post #187 of 1331 Old 02-29-2004, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by filecat13
Yeah, 1272 is what I meant. I've corrected the post. The SDG 900 Plus is an 8" machine.

You're right, the 1292 is a very noisy beast, and I've frankly never seen one that was well set up, so overall it was intolerable. I've seen two, and in their current set up, I'd prefer my SVD 500 Plus. However, if someone wanted to trade me their poorly set up 1292 for my Seleco, I'd consider it.;)
In that case you're right, I think the SDG 900 Plus is MUCH better !!

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post #188 of 1331 Old 02-29-2004, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doug Baisey
Guy,
So true, even if both were new out of the box, on the same screen and being fed the same signal the variable would be the difference in set up and knowing how to get the most out of each model. This is where the Infocom shoot off came in.

Then theres also the variable of the viewers preference times how many are viewing. This is where the Infocom voter survey came in to judge the best image in each category. Thats a lot of variables, how many thousand's would you guess passed through there to make their vote? Doug
Truer words were never spoken !!!

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post #189 of 1331 Old 02-29-2004, 07:24 PM
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I want to apologize for my earlier posts. For all I know, the XG is several times sharper than the G70. Even if I somehow knew that the G70 is as sharp or sharper (which I don't), there still was no reason, or excuse, for me to make such harsh posts. Again my apologies to everyone.

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post #190 of 1331 Old 03-01-2004, 02:58 AM
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Phil,
it's perfectly OK for you to express your opinion, and for the most part, no one is ever offended (or should be). An apology is proper if it was a personal attack against an individual (that we should avoid). An opinion should always be welcomed, but because of our strong atachments to our loved products we sometimes take offence. This is just an area were we sometime come up short.

That's what's so entertaining about the CRT/Digital debates, most of us care less about the advancement of digital. It'll either not happen soon or it'll be too expensive in comparison to used CRT, but it's going to happen. The thing that makes the debates fun is pissing off the opponent, and putting them on the defense.

This is were QQQ and Bob shines - they detach themselves from the debates.

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post #191 of 1331 Old 03-01-2004, 03:40 AM
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"The G70 trash talk continues. All the forum experts (including you guys) used to bash the G70's colors. They were so bad the pj near unwatchable. At least that USED to be the knock on the G70s. Now that the shootout showed the G70 colors were near perfect, and on the same level color-wise as the XG, now the G70 is not as sharp as the XG. It seems I used to read comments about how sharp the G70 was. Bad colors, but sharp. Now the G70's sharpness is lacking."

I have had two brand new Nec XG-LC projectors and two brand new Sony G70 projectors and several more used ones. The G70's have always been quite sharper than the XG's, not so visible watching DVDs, but very visible watching HiDef 1080i. DVD content looked much better on the XG though - why I dont know.

Per Johnny

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post #192 of 1331 Old 03-01-2004, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobertWood
I don't know what MTF is but I know our AmPros must have it in spades. And the AmPro convergence drift is so bad you can see it moving right before your eyes. Not to mention they've been known to give their owners painful electric shocks.

p.s. to AmProers: this should help us to be able to buy em even cheaper. :D

:D :D Thanks Robert, we don't want everyone out there looking for a 4600. More for us;)

Cary
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post #193 of 1331 Old 03-01-2004, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Per Johnny
"The G70 trash talk continues. All the forum experts (including you guys) used to bash the G70's colors. They were so bad the pj near unwatchable. At least that USED to be the knock on the G70s. Now that the shootout showed the G70 colors were near perfect, and on the same level color-wise as the XG, now the G70 is not as sharp as the XG. It seems I used to read comments about how sharp the G70 was. Bad colors, but sharp. Now the G70's sharpness is lacking."

I have had two brand new Nec XG-LC projectors and two brand new Sony G70 projectors and several more used ones. The G70's have always been quite sharper than the XG's, not so visible watching DVDs, but very visible watching HiDef 1080i. DVD content looked much better on the XG though - why I dont know.

Per Johnny
When it comes to DVD content, some of the DVD's being released could make the best CRT projector in the world look like it was never focused when it was setup. Because I have collected film my whole life and over the last couple of years have been trying to replace some of the non-Technicolor film that have started to lose it's color with DVD's, many of the DVD's I have bought are older classics. While some of the DVD's could make even cheap digital projectors look good, others, particularly DVD's from "UNIVERSAL HOME VIDEO". They have consistently used bad prints and misrepresented "letterbox DVD's as being "widescreen". As a result their DVD's look like they were transmitted off the bad side of the Empire State Building.

Maybe we should compile lists of old and new DVD's and rate them for print quality, color, focus and overall quality. It doesn't have to be complicated and should only require one opinion per title, unless someone disagrees with the rating. This would avoid buying DVD's that are totally unsuitable for projection.

Bruce

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post #194 of 1331 Old 03-01-2004, 11:00 AM
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I appreciate that Mike. Good natured debating and arguing can be fun, and I sometimes really enjoy it. But sometimes I get caught up in the moment and take it too far, and I felt like in this instance I had crossed that line. I'm glad to know at least you were not offended, because that never was my intention.

Per Johnny,

That's an interesting observation. 1080i looks amazingly sharp on my G70 as well--sharper than I think should be possible. I made post about this in the past.

Bruce,

You own a bunch of film, and a film projector? That's pretty cool! I believe Vern Dias does as well.

Phil Smith
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post #195 of 1331 Old 03-01-2004, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phil Smith
I appreciate that Mike. Good natured debating and arguing can be fun, and I sometimes really enjoy it. But sometimes I get caught up in the moment and take it too far, and I felt like in this instance I had crossed that line. I'm glad to know at least you were not offended, because that never was my intention.

Per Johnny,

That's an interesting observation. 1080i looks amazingly sharp on my G70 as well--sharper than I think should be possible. I made post about this in the past.

Bruce,

You own a bunch of film, and a film projector? That's pretty cool! I believe Vern Dias does as well.
Phil,

Apparently it wasn't "cool" enough when I moved a couple of hundred prints to Florida, otherwise I wouldn't have been left with "red" prints. Fortunately, the IB Technicolor prints don't lose the color like prints made on Eastmen film. With DVD's, the color stays put and the sound is always the same. With 35mm magnetic prints, even if you degauss all the metal parts on the projector, you lose some HF response every time you run them.

Bruce

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post #196 of 1331 Old 03-01-2004, 11:23 AM
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Bruce,

What are you saying--the Florida heat caused them to tint red?

Phil Smith
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post #197 of 1331 Old 03-01-2004, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phil Smith
Bruce,

What are you saying--the Florida heat caused them to tint red?
Absolutely, the heat and especially the humidity, EVEN WITH air-conditioning. Everything goes bad down there. I opened up a VCR that went bad, only to find that the belts had turned to mush. I had an expensive RTR recorder and the capstan rollers turned to mush. It could sit in NY for years, but take it to Florida and it's ruined in a couple of years. I even think it's turning me to mush.

Bruce

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post #198 of 1331 Old 03-03-2004, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phil Smith
You're right Clarence. The list is purely subjective.

Due to it's superior brightness, and lack of a flimsy chassis that crushes under it's own weight during shipping, I have made appropriate adjustments to the list:

25. Sony VPH-1020/1030/1040 (480i)
24. Sony VPH-1031
23. Electrohome ECP3xxx/4xxx
22. ECP3xx1/4xx1 (with ACON)
21. Barco 801
20. Sony VPH-1252
19. Sony VPH-1272
18. Sony D50
17. NEC 6PG (or GE Imager equivalent)
16. Barco 808
15. NEC PG9200 Xtra
14. Electrohome Marquee 8000/8500
13 Barco 1208
12. 808s
11. Barco 1208s
10. NEC XG nonLC
9. Sony 1292
8. Electrohome Marquee 8500 LC
7. NEC XG-LC
6. Sony G70
5. Ampro 4600
4. Barco 1209/1209S
3. Barco Cine9
2. Marquee 9501LC/Ultra/MP modded
1. Sony G90
Well, I did ask this before, but I still haven't got a reply, and I think that it might interest people intending to buy budget crts. Where exactly do you put the Barcos 7" models in this list? (701, 708 etc.) They do seem popular, so I would like to know how they fare compared with other "small" pjs.

I have guts, I have a CRT.
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post #199 of 1331 Old 03-03-2004, 02:25 AM
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I would guess the Barco 701,708 would go either before or after the Sony 1031.

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post #200 of 1331 Old 03-03-2004, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by techman707
I would guess the Barco 701,708 would go either before or after the Sony 1031.
I disagree- the Barco 701/708's are much a newer chassis with EM focus. They are more similar to something like a Sony D50. I'd stick them there...

Kal

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post #201 of 1331 Old 03-03-2004, 05:24 AM
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On paper, the specs of the 708:
Quote:
5.5", 1200 peak lumens, 15000 contrast, 210 Vscan, 1280x1024p, point conv, EM
look comparable to the 1252/1272/D50

Anyone familiar with both BD708 vs VPH?


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post #202 of 1331 Old 03-03-2004, 07:11 AM
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Sony 1252/1272 are ES focused and a much older chassis design then the 708.... The 1252/1272 are not comparable to the D50. The D50 is a much newer design (as is the Barco 708).

So the following are comparable:

Barco 800/801 = Sony 1252/1272

Barco 708 = Sony D50

Kal

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post #203 of 1331 Old 03-03-2004, 07:18 AM
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25. Sony VPH-1020/1030/1040 (480i)
24. Sony VPH-1031
23. Electrohome ECP3xxx/4xxx (add points for xxx1 [ACON])
22. Barco 800/801
21. Sony VPH-125x
20. Sony VPH-127x
19. Barco 708
18. Sony D50
17. NEC 6PG (or GE Imager equivalent)
16. Barco 808
15. NEC PG9200 Xtra
14. Electrohome Marquee 8000/8500
13 Barco 1208
12. 808s
11. Barco 1208s
10. NEC XG nonLC
9. Sony 1292
8. Electrohome Marquee 8500 LC
7. NEC XG-LC
6. Sony G70
5. Ampro 4600
4. Barco 1209/1209S
3. Barco Cine9
2. Marquee 9501LC/Ultra/MP modded
1. Sony G90


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post #204 of 1331 Old 03-03-2004, 07:39 AM
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i think a much more accurate rendition of what is the best pj is which one has the least amount of repair probelms and issues, also the availibilty of parts and replacement cost, i think if you throw that into the mix it would transform your "lists" quite considerably, for purposes of illustration; the sony 12xx series grant you doesn,t have the best picture but it is built like a tank and are very dependable and reliable, also if they do need parts they are readily availble anywhere at reputable crt outlets. its like buying a new car, a diablo might beat anything on the road at( 350US a copy) but try to find parts for it at your local auto salvage.you would also have to mortgage your first born, so IMHO performance or picture quality shouldn,t be the only criteria when these lists are made up, lets see your repair bills first then we,ll see who is number one...................

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post #205 of 1331 Old 03-03-2004, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kal
I disagree- the Barco 701/708's are much a newer chassis with EM focus. They are more similar to something like a Sony D50. I'd stick them there...

Kal
I once had a 701 and it didn't have EM focus. I checked it out and only the 701 "S" has EM focus. I just figured the 708 was the same, but apparently the plain 708 is EM focus.

Bruce

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post #206 of 1331 Old 03-03-2004, 08:51 AM
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I don't think that anybody who spends $350K on a Diablo is too worried about it being easier to find a 1995 Honda alternator in the salvage yard.

With all other things being equal, I'd still take the "troublesome" (hard to find spares) Ampro 4600 over a dependable (with easier spares) Sony VPH.


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post #207 of 1331 Old 03-03-2004, 09:41 AM
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thats your choice and right , i would sooner have anything i own to be as trouble free as possible and if it does require parts they would be easy and accessible to obtain without breaking the wallet so what good is a machine that is troublesome and is breaking all the time ? keep your head in the service Manuel and on the net looking for parts while i will continue to watch the latest flicks on my "not worthy Sony".................

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post #208 of 1331 Old 03-03-2004, 09:42 AM
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p.s. didn,t ampro go broke?

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post #209 of 1331 Old 03-03-2004, 10:31 AM
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yes they did the light valve broke them
millions spent on rad

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IN THE LAND OF HOME THEATER

THE THREE EYED MONSTER IS KING
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post #210 of 1331 Old 03-03-2004, 11:33 AM
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Location: Northern Virginia Projector: G90 CRT
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I never intentionally, explicitly, or implied that your Sony or anyone's projector was "not worthy".

I have an Electrohome Marquee, so I too enjoy watching movies instead of keeping one eye on the service manual and the other eye on a spare parts search.

I also have an ECP3101 and I don't feel defensive that it's at #23. If there are 22 or more projectors that can give their owners better images than these, we should all be happy.

I still think people are putting too much faith in these lists and getting too defensive or upset about their own machine's placement.

How would you rank them?
Does your VPH belong at #1 because that's what you own and Sony's never need repairs?

I never imagined VPH vs Ampro would be as hotly contested as CRT vs digital, Ford vs Chevy, Dale Jr vs Jeff Gordon, Coke vs Pepsi, Yankees vs Mets, Beatles vs Zeppelin.


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