Geforce FX5700. Is it time for Radeon to leave your machine? Yes it is. - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 433 Old 04-13-2004, 02:29 PM
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Which 5700 is supposed to be the best for home theater use ?
Asus, Abit, Chaintech or MSI ?
The Chaintech has an additional power cable, so maybe it can make a difference ?

Thx :)

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post #182 of 433 Old 04-16-2004, 04:28 AM
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Come on guys...

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post #183 of 433 Old 04-16-2004, 06:36 AM
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I don't think you can find nvidia's Mike Parker has. I have the Asylum by BFG Tech which seems like a good card. MP has also one of these is what I read.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #184 of 433 Old 04-18-2004, 04:32 PM
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Now we can resume the testing of the 5700, and we're planning on doing that this Tuesday.

Sorry for the delay on this, but in order to properly evaluate this card, I'll need to have certain things in order first. The main thing is to be able to get the software DVD player to function at or near 100% (This is where Doug comes in). This is important because I'll have to get a 20Mhz signal from a DVD to display square wave pattern on the scope. And since the testing involves the MP-1, there would probably need to be a change made in the filtering network on the MP-1. Then the 5700/MP-1 would have to be tested with a 30' 75 ohm RG6 cable (Belden 1694A).

Once the software player is functioning properly and the scoped patterns meet my expectation, we'll arrange for the final testing on Deniz's G90.

BTW, Deniz (formally of T A W), is probably the most critical eye that I know of other than myself. He has a tremendous ability to see and understand the most critical elements of video performance. Actually it's a real pleasure to have him present on this. So it's not just his G90 that we're utilizing.

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post #185 of 433 Old 04-18-2004, 04:40 PM
 
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Thanks for the update Mike, I'm glad you are doing better now, and I'm excited to decide what kind of video card I will get for my new HTPC. Do you know what kind of timeframe your modded 5700s will be available?

I'll wait to see what kind of results you see during your testing!
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post #186 of 433 Old 04-21-2004, 01:52 PM
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Any update Mike :)
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post #187 of 433 Old 04-22-2004, 04:19 AM
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Yes, we did get to find time to initially test the 5700 with the latest drivers. So far we've not noticed any REAL difference with the latest drivers (concerning the issues we noticed earlier).

However, we were able correct the problem we were having from the earlier testing. Now we're able to get good and stable performance.

Still, we have a few more things to do before we can really comment. But as I've indicated before, I'm sure it's going to be a 5700 for me.

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post #188 of 433 Old 04-22-2004, 08:50 AM
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Slightly OT but I've been told the eVGA version of the 5700 Utra has a rather noisy fan and was wondering if anyone has had better experiences with any other brands. I'm installing in a pretty quiet SFF machine that lives in the theater so noise is an issue.

Thanks for your suggestions.


Edit: And, while we're on this subject, as there seems to be some slight build variations between manufacturers - is there one brand worth aiming for?

Thanks
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post #189 of 433 Old 04-22-2004, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by blafarm
Edit: And, while we're on this subject, as there seems to be some slight build variations between manufacturers - is there one brand worth aiming for?

Thanks
echo

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post #190 of 433 Old 05-02-2004, 07:18 PM
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Boy, this thread really fell off a cliff, didn't it.
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post #191 of 433 Old 05-05-2004, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by blafarm
Boy, this thread really fell off a cliff, didn't it.
Yeah, but only for a moment.

I've suspended my test on the 5700, and will probably post back on its performance a little later. For now I've also taking on a 5950, so my actual final testing would involve the 5700 as well the 5950.

So far, I find the 5700 (when modded with MP-1) to have a very low noise floor. Therefore it blows the ATI 9800 away as far as basic DAC performance. In other words the analog signal on the 5700 is extremely clean. In my opinion the Matrox Parhelia had the cleanest analog signal that I've tested so far, but that was before 5700 arrived. The 5700 has the cleanest analog signal that I've seen from any DAC...

Now concerning the 5950. I only got a brief moment to look at the 5950, mainly because I had inadvertantly caused the card to fail, therefore it had to be sent back for replacement. From my initial visual observation of the 5950, I could see a very hefty and well built card. Very nice (a tad too noisy) dual fan heat sink assembly, but much needed for the processor. What really jumped out at me was the attention that was giving to the mini switching power supplies that are perfectly located on the PC board, and are not near to any analog section of the card. Truly the designers had high performance graphics in mind, mainly because any digital (or other) noise in a high resolution analog graphics signal would definately effect the best possible analog signal from the card. Finally, someone decided to not just randomly place the components on the card. Technically speaking, the layout is very well done. When integrating analog and digital signals on the same board, much concideration should be taking to avoid the trauma of a mixed signal invironmemt. Of course a design like this would only be found on expensive PC board layouts, and would NOT likely be seen on a consumer video card... well, not until the 5950.

I can only look at noise and other stuff using my scope and a 17" monitor. I did not get a chance to take the test to my shop (card failure - my fault). The card was immediately called in for an RTA, and was shipped out to next day.... yes I feel like someone has put me on hold.

NVIDIA seems to have an attitude, because it shows in the 5700 and 5950. If they're not ahead of ATI - they will be very soon.

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post #192 of 433 Old 05-05-2004, 01:21 PM
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Thanks for the update, Mike.

> I can only look at noise and other stuff using my scope and a 17" monitor. <

Are there any specific signals and sources you use to evaluate residual noise and other card-induced artifacts on your scope? Thanks.

- Tim

- Tim
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post #193 of 433 Old 05-05-2004, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mp20748
NVIDIA seems to have an attitude, because it shows in the 5700 and 5950.
can you recommend any brand/implemetation????

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post #194 of 433 Old 05-05-2004, 01:46 PM
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Mike, the next generation of cards are basically out, and Nvdia is still behind in terms of performance. Their cards are also geared towards texture performance instead of shader performance right now, which is backwards looking, unlike ATI who are doing the opposite. Please, lets continue to be subjective in all of this. There are a lot of politics in the video card world right now (visit www.rage3d.com, or www.nvnews.net) - lets stick to the 2d video performance please.
Vic
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post #195 of 433 Old 05-05-2004, 02:21 PM
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I'd love to see any info on the 6800 cards as well since it's supposed to have video processing capabilities (which I don't believe the ATI's picked up). If the quality holds from the 5700 to the 6800 on the signal then I think we've got the makings of an awesome platform (now just need to get ffdshow doing offloading to the 6800 cards :) )
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post #196 of 433 Old 05-05-2004, 04:08 PM
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I think that Mike was leaning towards NVidia, as he believes they now have a better 'physical design philosophy' than ATI rather than being necessarily a features/performance comparison.
Tom's Hardware has a good in depth review of both cards and their underlying technology. www.tomshardware.com
I repeat the call though fopr the people that run the avsforum to put a request through to Tomshardware that they review 2D quality and DVD playback performance/quality as well as the usual performance tests. Tom's have been responsive in the past when suggestions come from 'informed' groups...

DON'T feed the troll.
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post #197 of 433 Old 05-05-2004, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mcpherv
Mike, the next generation of cards are basically out, and Nvdia is still behind in terms of performance. Their cards are also geared towards texture performance instead of shader performance right now, which is backwards looking, unlike ATI who are doing the opposite. Please, lets continue to be subjective in all of this. There are a lot of politics in the video card world right now (visit www.rage3d.com, or www.nvnews.net) - lets stick to the 2d video performance please.
Vic
If you notice from my post, my observations has been on the performance of the DAC's analog signal quality. In comparison to the DAC's analog signal quality of the ATI's, the Nvidia's 5700/5950 far outperforms the ATI's (my opinion only). Concerning 2D/3D performance, I have no idea what either of them are doing., I've yet to really evaluate the card in action on DVD with the latest upgrades. So far I've only mentioned the analog signals performance.

I don't even get into loading the drivers, deinterlacing, etc. That will probably be done by someone else. As for the ATI's being better performers than the 5700/5950, I would disagree with that. And since I have no interest in what either of them are doing as gaming cards, that excludes me from the politics that you mention. As for HT use, the goal for us CRT users is the quality of the analog signal, we want the cleanest signal possible, and if the DAC's signal is not up to par, whatever else the card is good for would make the final signal also sub-par.

The card was offered to me to evaluate the analog section only. So far, the signal quality of the DAC's analog out is the best I've looked at--period.

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post #198 of 433 Old 05-05-2004, 10:01 PM
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Okay Mike, sorry I misunderstood on that one. I thought that might be what you were getting at, but it seemed like you had already covered that one generally in your post, and the last comment was on something else. People buy cards on your recommendation, so I just didn't want any confusion on that one. Thanks,
Vic
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post #199 of 433 Old 05-06-2004, 03:55 AM
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Mike Parker,
As one who is keenly interested in home theater (primarily) as well as 3D performance I'd like to give an extra bit of info here. Nvidia makes the chipsets and will put out a basic design to it's board manufacturers. The manufacturers don't have to use that design at all. Lots of low-ball price cards use very substandard parts causing grief in all sorts of applications. So it is very important that you let us know which vendors card you tested, as the DAC is only one piece of the puzzle -- a critical piece but still only a piece.

I don't mean to imply that all low-ball cards are junk -- sometimes they are the best, but one *really* has to do their research not to get stung at any price. Yes, it's a LOT of trouble but don't skimp on the $40-300 card when you've just paid multi-thousands on your pj.

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post #200 of 433 Old 05-06-2004, 04:47 AM
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HDTV Fan,
You're right, and for some reason I keep forgetting how these cards are manufactured - thanks.

I'm gonna put the cards on the table with this one... I'll get into the manuafcturer later, and maybe then I'll be able to do a better job at conveying my experience with it. I'll say this for now, there will be a photo of it on my website shortly after I get it back into my hands.. ;)

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post #201 of 433 Old 05-17-2004, 08:43 AM
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anything new ?

sorry for my poor english but I'm french !!!!
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post #202 of 433 Old 05-20-2004, 11:59 PM
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Yes, I've got the 5950 back from the manufacturer. I'll pick back up on this next week after I get the mod attached to the card.

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post #203 of 433 Old 05-21-2004, 03:01 AM
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Is the 5700 signal from the DAC so clean that it wouldn't require filtering?
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post #204 of 433 Old 05-21-2004, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Budget Pete
Is the 5700 signal from the DAC so clean that it wouldn't require filtering?
All DAC's should need filtering.

A DAC is a mixed signal (analog/digital) device. By having high speed digital signals on the same platform as analog signals, you're get some noise from the digital into the analog. This noise is usually above the video bandwidth, and is (in some cases) so high in frequency that it could even cause RF interference in radio,s TV's, phones, etc. The purpose of the filtering is strip as much as possible the frequencies above the useable video band. More commonly known as a "Low Pass filter"

All DAC's should have this filtering. By removing the filters, you'll get the appearance of a sharper image, but that may not be the case, because some DAC's have a somewhat higher (emphasized) pump on it's analog output. This slight boost or pump is there to maintain the video signals performance through the filtering process. In other words the filters will restore that high frequency boost back to the original signals characteristics. Without the filters, you'll more like get a perceived sharper image, but it will more like suffer from over-peaking like sharpness, and would more like have the higher frequency noise that you'll rather not see in the image. most of us will focus on the sharpness and not notice the noise or over-peaking effect.

The goal is the get a CLEANER signal, and this would require filtering. A cleaner signal is better for HDTV, mainly because with HDTV you'll want the cleanest signal possible, as to be able to properly display subtle detail and definition. HDTV from a DAC without filtering can cause the noise and peaking effect to deminish the detail of the image. And the intent of modern video is to be able to see the image in full detail.

The MP-1 does have filtering in place.

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post #205 of 433 Old 05-31-2004, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mp20748
Yes, I've got the 5950 back from the manufacturer. I'll pick back up on this next week after I get the mod attached to the card.
The mod was attached, and the 5950 was put in the HTPC. Thanks once more to Doug who loaded the latest drivers, and got the HTPC ready for Prime Time.

And thanks to Mark Haflich for the use of his home theater for the testing.

We looked at the HTPC with the 5950, but first we had the pleasure of watching Marks processor, so it was a good starting point. We also hooked up the MP-5.

As expected, Mark's processor was a non issue. The 5950 was simply excellent, and that was without it being scoped. We forgot to scope it before we left to go to Mark's. We did get to scope the card once we got back to my house. We found that the most important tweak for this card is proper levels set by a scope, once that's done, it puts the card in class of its own.

We also got to look at Mark's HD Sat box before the MP-5, which outputs RGBHV. Then we watched U571 from a JVC Deck to the MP-5. By comparison the sat box was anemic in black levels.

The 5950 is the best video card that I've seen so far, but in order to see it at its best, IT MUST BE CALIBRATED. Finally, a video card that renders PERFECT blacks and is so clean, it looked better than film.

Ten Thumbs Up!

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post #206 of 433 Old 05-31-2004, 08:04 AM
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Thanks Mike!

For those of us with a scope, and a 5700Ultra card, how do you adjust the individual levels for RGB? Do you just change the 75ohm termination resistors on the card to something just above or below 75ohm? Or are you making the adjustments on the MP-1?

I've been thinking of moving the MP-1 from my ATI9500 to the NVIDIA 5700 and giving it a whirl. It would indeed be a bummer if the 5700 outputs are off (my gray-scaled Marquee would be off and I wouldn't match my HD source any more) :(

Cary
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post #207 of 433 Old 05-31-2004, 08:17 AM
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I have been running the 5700 card for about 6 weeks now and since the latest release of drivers from NVidia a few weeks ago, this card has really cleaned up on the video side. No more stuttering using TheaterTek.

Terry

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post #208 of 433 Old 05-31-2004, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jcmccorm
Thanks Mike!

For those of us with a scope, and a 5700Ultra card, how do you adjust the individual levels for RGB? Do you just change the 75ohm termination resistors on the card to something just above or below 75ohm? Or are you making the adjustments on the MP-1?

Cary
I don't know of a way to adjust the levels within the card. But the three levels from the ATI's and the Nvidia's are slightly different. This I would expect to compensate for on the projector. I've not changed the resistors on the board, though they are not all (RGB) 75 ohm in DC resistance. Why? I have no idea, but for some reason they are not equal in resistance.

Terry, is right about the improvement in the drivers, and if you've already downloaded the same driver numbers, still download them again.

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post #209 of 433 Old 05-31-2004, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mp20748
The 5950 is the best video card that I've seen so far, but in order to see it at its best, IT MUST BE CALIBRATED. Finally, a video card that renders PERFECT blacks and is so clean, it looked better than film.

Ten Thumbs Up!
Crash ... Bang ... Tinkle !

That's the sound of 1000's of Radeon based cards simultaneously hitting the rubbish bins as the videophile owners rush out the door to go buy nVidia's offering :D

Mike ... could you describe more fully the improvements I would see moving from my Radeon 9600 Pro ( MP-1 fitted of course! ) to the new NVidia product with your mod? The MP-1 made a noticeable improvement to the stock 9600 card, particularly in the area of shadow detail rendition and video noise reduction, and from what I've just been reading there is substantial improvements again.

Cheers and thanks for a fine product

Russ

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post #210 of 433 Old 05-31-2004, 09:15 AM
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MP, Are you saying that a MP modded 5950 with a AMD 1800 machine is better image quality than a full blown PEntium4 2.8c w/ 800fsb motherboard, 1 gig ram, Radeon 9600 with full Resize usign ffdshow?
Both using Theater Tek on a Marquee Electromhome 8500 projector.

See, the whole point of using ffdshow Resize is to do a better job of Resizing than ANY videocard is capable of. A video card uses the worse resize algorithm possible. With Ffdshow you can use BiCubic or Lancos which is the best possible Resizing known.

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