Clarence's new theater plans - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 981 Old 04-11-2004, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's my first RP test. I'm using my 4th projector, the Sony VPH1271, just because it's the one with the power cord attached right now. It's not focussed or converged yet, and it's only hooked up to s-video, so you can see the scan lines, but it's good enough for these initial RP tests...

Here's a view with the lights on and with flash so you can see the setup in my basement:
- - Sony VPH1271, table mounted with cover off
- - s-video DVD set top box
- - Wrinkled twin-size bed sheet stapled to the joists (shhh, don't tell my wife) 5' in front of my usual screen
- - image is about 7'-8' wide (how long is a bedsheet?)
- - projector is about 11' in front of sheet

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/vph-rp01.jpg

And here's a shot from behind the sheet, which would be the viewing side in an RP setup:

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/vph-rp02.jpg

Hmmm. Let's hope the RP materials are a little better. ;)

-Clarence
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post #92 of 981 Old 04-11-2004, 07:26 AM
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You forgot to post the brand of the sheet and the knit count :D

looks good ! i am impressed what the back of a sheet looks like

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post #93 of 981 Old 04-11-2004, 10:13 AM
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That's some pretty major hot-spotting, though, if you can actually see the three individual CRTs. To use something like this you'd have to project from off-axis so you didn't have the CRTs in the line of sight. But obviously the majority of the light is going straight through the sheet, so you'd lose the majority of your lumens to that hot spot. I don't think the Fresnel screens have anything to worry about just yet. Maybe with a higher thread count. :)

I'm really surprised warcher1 seemed to have little or no ghosting from his second-surface mirrors. I figured a first-surface mirror would be required, and that would be Majorly Expensive for the size of mirror you'd need for any major folding. I.e. you can use a smallish mirror if you just want to park it right in front of the projector just to turn the projection 90deg, but if you wanted to double or triple the throw distance by folding it once or twice, and you wanted a 8-10' screen, your final mirror is going to be Really Big. And front-surface mirrors only seem to come in hyper-optically-perfect versions that are hugely expensive even for tiny mirrors. If you could get away with a front-surface mirror for at least the final bounce, that would make a folded light path more possible.

I dunno, I'm probably crazy to even think of this for my application. But it sure would be nice to have the PJ in another room!!
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post #94 of 981 Old 04-11-2004, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's RP test #2:

I went to Home Depot and bought a 42"x48" bathroom vanity mirror. Not first-surface, of course.
I hung it with yellow twine from the ceiling joists.
I put the VPH1271 on the floor and stuck a couple of 2x4s under the nose (lenses) to angle it up a little towards the mirror.

Picture taken with lights on and with flash:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/rp-mirror1.jpg

Still using the wrinkled sheet.
Except now the projector throw distance (depth) is cut in half.
The distance between the mirror and the sheet is only 5.5'! (my "virtual projection closet").
Resulting image is still ~8' wide.

The results are impressive...

The twine lines in front of the mirror are oddly not even noticeable in the projected image. The mirror is also still incredibly dusty. I guess the wrinkled sheet hides a lot of flaws.

But the image on the viewing side of the sheet is bright and evenly lit - no hotspotting or fading to black on the edges.

The RGB lights from the projector are no longer visible within the projected frame. I have to stand tall and look down into the frame to see the tubes.

It feels weird to walk a foot in front of the screen without casting a "RGB shadow".

-Clarence
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post #95 of 981 Old 04-11-2004, 04:40 PM
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Well you're getting some perplexing results. The first screen shot where you can see the projector's tubes is not hot spotting. Other than the tubes, the brightness is pretty uniform. Maybe the tubes are visible through the tiny holes in the sheet, allowing direct light through? I don't know, but I don't understand it.

On your latest experiment, I would think you would still be able to see the tubes. Does that setup have a lot of key stone correction? I'm guessing that if your pj/mirror/screen is lined up with zero or little angle, you'll still be able to see the tubes, at least with the sheet.

This might come in handy. Paper Trick It turned what I thought would be extremely difficult into something simple.

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post #96 of 981 Old 04-11-2004, 04:50 PM
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I cut out a zero degree triangle just to play around with. Pretty neat.

http://www.dallasmusic.org/Ebay/paper-1.jpg

http://www.dallasmusic.org/Ebay/paper-2.jpg

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post #97 of 981 Old 04-11-2004, 04:50 PM
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Just anotherthought here. What about placing the projector on the floor facing the seating and use a mirror to project back to a FP screen (like the original big screen TVs) This would open the prime front row center seat and no ceiling obstruction. A good FP screen material might be the Da-Lite Cinema Vision 1.3 gain. This can be purchased cut to size by the square foot around $5+.

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post #98 of 981 Old 04-11-2004, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Phil- Thanks for that link, I need to re-read it. I understand the concept about folding the paper to determine the mirror location and height, but what do you use for angles? What do you mean by "zero degree angle"?

And what did you used as fixed measurements when cutting your triangle? desired height of screen and calculated throw distance?

My current setup (from test #2 pictured above) has the screen and mirror parallel to each other. I definitely don't have any intended tilt to the mirror (yet).

The projector is propped 4" high (2 2x4s and the little VPH built-in feet knobs extended). I haven't even see the keystone adjustment on this Sony yet (I still need to RTFM), but the image sides look squared enough just eyeballing it.

I might do test #3 tonight and spin the whole setup around so the mirror is infront of my old screen. Because in test #2, I can only stand a couple of feet in the intended viewing area.

Glen, I understand your approach, but that still leaves the magical smoke and mirrors in the same room as the audience. Maybe if you had ceilings higher than 8'. Then you could hide the mirror in like a raised orchestra pit in front of the screen or behind a bar. But a 42" mirror will be pretty hard to design around. And the bright CRTs would be shining into your eyes if you walked near the mirror. Plus, I wouldn't want the mirror on the floor in the same room with my kids and their friends. That's another advantage of the rear projection closet.

-Clarence
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post #99 of 981 Old 04-11-2004, 07:25 PM
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When I said zero degrees I was referring to the projection angle. The triangle represents the projected cone. I can't explain it well. Maybe this drawing will help. The center line represents the projection angle.

http://www.dallasmusic.org/Ebay/triangles.jpg

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post #100 of 981 Old 04-11-2004, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's some cut and paste from the VPH manual (they don't show a mirror setup)...



I think the angle that's hurting my brain most is the natural 13.4 degree tilt of the tubes in the chassis. Plus, due to my riser, wouldn't I need the optical axis to rise, e.g. to say 11.4 degrees instead of the 15.4 shown in the bottom illustration? Or is zero (13.4) best?

If I can just sketch the proper projection cone (and the distance from the lenses to the screen, "B") for my desired screen height, then all I have to do is fold the cone to figure out the height and angle of the mirror.

-Clarence
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post #101 of 981 Old 04-11-2004, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
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And here's the quick hack at my proposed setup (angles or distances are not to scale)



-Clarence
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post #102 of 981 Old 04-11-2004, 09:55 PM
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Clarence, how deep is your projection room, so how long is your throw & how big will your screen be? Are you concerned about hotspotting since the PJ will appear to be right behind the screen?
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post #103 of 981 Old 04-12-2004, 10:43 PM
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Clarence,

My understanding of all of this is sketchy, and I'm even less able to explain it. Someone more qualified needs to jump in and help out on this. (I'm surprised that hasn't happened.)

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post #104 of 981 Old 04-13-2004, 08:51 AM
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anyone used the dazian material yet ?
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post #105 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Some more setup geometry diagrams for Marquee RP (just notes to myself that I thought I'd share for future searchers)...







-Clarence

 

rp-marquee.zip 50.4794921875k . file
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post #106 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 12:17 PM
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Clarence,

When the manual says that the mirror size needs to be D1/D x Screen Size, is it assumed mirror size and screen size is measured by the diagonal?
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post #107 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Isn't the mirror the same proportion as the screen, so
Mh=(D1/D)*Sh
Mw=(D1/D)*Sw

-Clarence
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post #108 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcorsyscom
Some more setup geometry diagrams for Marquee RP (just notes to myself that I thought I'd share for future searchers)...


-Clarence
Clarence,
Where can I get those images? I'd like to read up some on RP setups.

Thanks,

CFC

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post #109 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm a CRT PDF manual pack rat. I just found it again on my hard drive. I don't know where I got it from originally, but I uploaded a copy of it here:

hd800_manual_aka_marquee_8000.pdf (3.2 Mb)

-Clarence

Quote:
Sometimes I switch to "AVS white" just to be cool
P.S. I switched to AVS White once because I hated the gaudy default colors here, but it threw off the light control in my HT.
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post #110 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcorsyscom
I'm a CRT PDF manual pack rat. I just found it again on my hard drive. I don't know where I got it from originally, but I uploaded a copy of it here:

hd800_manual_aka_marquee_8000.pdf (3.2 Mb)

-Clarence
Thank you much sir :D
I'm assuming that the instructions are "similar" for any other projector, or are they stricly relevant for a marquee 8000?
I'm really enjoying this thread by the way, I'm just lurking for knowledge :cool:
oh ... what are the main advantages of an RP setup? Acts better in bright lighting?

Thanks again,
CFC

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post #111 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Should be very similar with all CRTs. The only difference may be the native tilt of the tubes in the chassis.

My main goal is to hide the 150# chunk of metal and glass that's hanging above my ideal seating sweet spot, right at the height where my noggin is when I stand up. It's suitable in our current unfinished basement, but I'm hoping for a very clean, finished, theatrical look in our new house. Hush boxes just hide the problem, and give you a prettier oak surface to bump into.

Plus, not having to look into the bright light when facing the projector.

Plus, no shadows for my kids to cast on the screen while they inevitably dance in the RGB spotlights.

Hushes the noise and houses the AV equipment and cables in the projection room. That inevitable tangle of snakes will look better behind a wall.

Higher ambient room light; although our new HT has no windows.

I've read mixed reviews as to whether the RP PQ is incredibly better (reference quality), comparable, or slightly dimmer due to the material tint.

I plan to build the 90% RP solution mockup in the next few weeks (buy 10' of the RP material, build a 2x4 frame, tension it with grommets and bungees, use a standard mirror) and then decide whether to deploy it full-scale in July when we move (full wall and equipment closet, masking/drapes, primary surface mirror).

Worst case scenario, I spend $200 in dazian, if I don't like it, I sell it and lose a few bucks, and we go back to a painted DIY screen which I'm currently ecstatic with.

-Clarence
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post #112 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcorsyscom
My main goal is to hide the 150# chunk of metal and glass that's hanging above my ideal seating sweet spot, right at the height where my noggin is when I stand up. It's kinda fun in our current unfinished basement, but I'm hoping for a very clean, finished, theatrical look in our new house. Hush boxes just hide the problem, and give you a prettier oak surface to bump into.

Plus, not having to look into the bright light when facing the projector.

Plus, no shadows for my kids to cast on the screen while they inevitably dance in the RGB spotlights.

Hushes the noise and houses the AV equipment and cables in the projection room. That inevitable tangle of snakes will look better behind a wall.

Higher ambient room light; although our new HT has no windows.

I've read mixed reviews as to whether the RP PQ is incredibly better (reference quality), comparable, or slightly dimmer due to the material tint.

I plan to build the 90% RP solution mockup in the next few weeks (buy 10' of the RP material, build a 2x4 frame, tension it with grommets and bungees, use a standard mirror) and then decide whether to deploy it full-scale in July when we move (full wall and equipment closet, masking/drapes, primary surface mirror).

Worst case scenario, I spend $200 in dazian, if I don't like it, I sell it and lose a few bucks, and we go back to a painted DIY screen which I'm currently ecstatic with.

-Clarence
Very nice,
you also seem to be quit a snapper, so I'm sure all this will be chronicled with pictures and all. I can't wait :D
Sounds like a whole lot of fun ... meanwhile, I've yet to buy a projector.
Good Luck,

CFC

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post #113 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I just saw (and bought) 10'x10' of Da-Lite RP on fleabay (3808753797).

Does anybody know if this is any good or what the rated gain is? Lots of info, but no specifics on da-lite.com

Oh well, we'll find out next week.

I figured at 93 cents/sq ft it'd be worth experimenting with. Worst case, I use it as a shower curtain or a tarp for my excess projectors. ;)

Stay tuned,
Clarence
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post #114 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcorsyscom
I just saw (and bought) 10'x10' of Da-Lite RP on fleabay (3808753797).

Does anybody know if this is any good or what the rated gain is? Lots of info, but no specifics on da-lite.com

Oh well, we'll find out next week.

I figured at 93 cents/sq ft it'd be worth experimenting with. Worst case, I use it as a shower curtain or a tarp for my excess projectors. ;)

Stay tuned,
Clarence
Do you know which one you got? If it is the DA-TEX, 1.8 gain, it's going to hot-spot a little. I have a small sample and when held in front of a flashlight and move back and forth, I can see the source of light. The DUAL VISION is a off white with 1.0 gain and I do not see source.

Hope this helps

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post #115 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Do you know which one you got? If it is the DA-TEX, 1.8 gain, it's going to hot-spot a little. I have a small sample and when held in front of a flashlight and move back and forth, I can see the source of light. The DUAL VISION is a off white with 1.0 gain and I do not see source.
I don't know. Is "avforsale" from Atlanta a forum member? Picture just looks like a tarp...


I'd read that RP gain seems to be exaggerated more than FP.
Oh well, hopefully it's better than my bedsheet or Phil's shower curtain.
I was going to order 10' of dazian tonight, but I'll hold off until after I test this da-lite.

-Clarence
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post #116 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 05:08 PM
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Clarence,

Since it is gray, it is the DA-TEX. Great price! Look forward to hear how it works.

Da-Lite Fast Fold info here

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post #117 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 05:33 PM
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Another RP contender is here
http://www.theatrestyle.com/acrobat/.../SHOW_1300.pdf

It comes in either 1.4m wide or 2m wide so big screens are OK (approx 4 1/2 ft wide or 6 1/2 ft wide) and is only about USD$40 yd, and USD$75 yd respectively.

DON'T feed the troll.
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post #118 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Since it is gray, it is the DA-TEX. Great price!
Egads...
Da-Lite Da-tex 10'x10' rear projection screen material (no frame)
$817.00

And I thought I foolishly splurged at $93!


Quote:
Another RP contender is here
but their best gain at 0 degrees RP is only 0.4!
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post #119 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 05:53 PM
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Ouch - time for a light cannon :)

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post #120 of 981 Old 04-14-2004, 06:02 PM
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Clarence,

The ebay auction says it's da-mat, which isn't an RP screen. You might want to contact the seller about that.

Those types of screens are used by production, sound and rental companies for concerts, conventions, etc. and have lived the hard life. If you don't buy this screen (which if it's da-mat I wouldn't) I would ask specific questions about the condition before bidding on anymore screens like this.

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