Clarence's new theater plans - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm trying to decide screensize and seat placement for our dedicated HT space in our new house.

Today I made my first visio sketch...



I want risers, but I can't picture how to work them in. The room size and door position is fixed. Everything else is flexible. Screen size will be no less than 10' wide as shown here). But probably not 12' like my current megascreen. No windows.

I know this probably belongs in the "HT Builder" forum, but I know and trust you guys and I want to get any CRT nuances covered too.

Comments?

-Clarence
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post #2 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 02:27 PM
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Shweet!
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post #3 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Marc-

After your visio comment yesterday, I gave it a shot. I'd only used it for network diagrams. Works great for HT planning!

Look closely at the CRT above. It's really 3 of the visio (digital) projector standard shapes overlapped with a computer-monitor shape stacked on top, then grouped. :)

-Clarence
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post #4 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 02:42 PM
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I would not have noticed. In fact I was going to ask you where you got those.

What are the issues with risers, looks like it would be easy.

How much of the perimeter wall is up and how is it finished? I can give you some assistance with the electrical if you need it.
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post #5 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 02:55 PM
 
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I took a line drawing of my NEC and inported it into Visio, resizing it of course.
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post #6 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 03:21 PM
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Looks nice Clarence! Save a BACK row set for me. :D

Can you place seat rows on 4' centers? I don't know what it should be, but it sounds like it wouldn't be enough.

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post #7 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 03:39 PM
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Clarence,

I'm guessing that your issue is that the back row would be the highest riser and how that would work with the entry door being right next to it.

You could use brass railing behind the last row and on the left side (facing screen.) Extend your risers all the way to that right wall . That would give you nice wide steps for traffic up to the higher levels to the right side, and provide a floor level walkway to the front row.
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post #8 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 03:42 PM
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If you curve all the seating arrangements, then they will will be out of the doorway. What is the room size?

It is all about quality...that is the picture

JVC & NEC 8" CRT with 106" wide Stewart screen. All NHT speakers driven by Pioneer Elite AVR and bluray

Custom dedicated 8 seat theater

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post #9 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 03:42 PM
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Yeah, what Lawndog said.
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post #10 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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>> How much of the perimeter wall is up and how is it finished? I can give you some assistance with the electrical if you need it.

It's still 95 days from being "unfinished" :)

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-slab.jpg

>> If you curve all the seating arrangements, then they will will be out of the doorway. What is the room size?

The curve is just a proscenium (stage).

I just looked at the plans and noticed the bathroom takes away 2' from the screen wall... (14' - 2' = 12'). I'll have to update that on the visio plan.

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/lower-level.gif

>> Can you place seat rows on 4' centers? I don't know what it should be, but it sounds like it wouldn't be enough.

I measured the rows that I have set up in my unfinished basement now...
3' rows on center is much wider than in commercial theaters. 4' seems almost "too roomy".

>> I'm guessing that your issue is that the back row would be the highest riser and how that would work with the entry door being right next to it. You could use brass railing behind the last row and on the left side (facing screen.) Extend your risers all the way to that right wall . That would give you nice wide steps for traffic up to the higher levels to the right side, and provide a floor level walkway to the front row.

Thanks Adam (and Marc, et al). That's what I was thinking, too. Any thoughts on how high each riser should be? 9"? So the rear row is only 18" high. Would I need brass railing behind the seats?

I also haven't decided if I should close off that 8'x10' nook where I show a desk above. I have a separate office space upstairs, so that computer is just the HTPC. Maybe a closed A/V equipment room?

-Clarence
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post #11 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by lawdawg
Clarence,

I'm guessing that your issue is that the back row would be the highest riser and how that would work with the entry door being right next to it.

You could use brass railing behind the last row and on the left side (facing screen.) Extend your risers all the way to that right wall . That would give you nice wide steps for traffic up to the higher levels to the right side, and provide a floor level walkway to the front row.
Clarence,
Is the desk for the HTPC? If so, I would agree with what lawdawg says but I would put the rail on the right side (facing screen) instead of the left side. Doing so would be slightly more inconvenient for the people walking in through the door but it would make it much easier going to and from the htpc.

The other thing I would think about is that electrohomes and Marquee's hang down pretty low from the ceiling due to a higher than norm profile. Does the room have a high ceiling? If not, I would not place any seats directly behind the projector, it may block the vision.

Bob
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post #12 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 05:41 PM
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If you can, get the electrical contractor to put in conduit runs for the HT and smart home / media distribution through out the house for that matter.

If they won't, we can go in their on a midnight raid with some power tools and fix that right up!

EDIT: 9" may be a bit steep unless it's in two steps. I think 9 exceeds the typical rise for steps which I believe is 6 to 8 inches.
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post #13 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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>> get the electrical contractor to put in conduit runs

It's just a cookie-cutter tract-home and the media wiring option was $9k too much. The large playroom and bathroom are fully finished. The laundry/utilty/storage room and my HT are unfinished, so I'll have plenty of opportunity to double-frame and run conduits.

>> 9" may be a bit steep

Yeah, I just measured the basement steps and they're 8.5" rise and seem steep. I'll plan 7.5" for now, which means back row is 15" high.

>> Marquee's hang down pretty low from the ceiling due to a higher than norm profile. Does the room have a high ceiling?

Only 8' ceiling in the basement. I measured my Marquee hanging about 18".

Wow, these inches start adding up...

I just sat in one of the seats under my Marquee. It sits about 18"-20"" above my head. So if I was sitting behind it on a 15" riser, I'd be looking maybe 3"-5" under it.

Here's another visio...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-03.gif

I added risers and a rear brass rail.
I depicted the bathroom wall jutting out.
I changed the HTPC desk to an equipment room (closet? alcove? cave?)
I left a "no-seating" gap under the Marquee.
I might consider a tall coffee table floor mount (actually maybe a combined HTPC equipment case and hush-box base), especially after yesterday's zero-tilt discussions.

It seemed so simple until I started drawing it out.

Thanks,
Clarence
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post #14 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Slid rows to back wall...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-05.gif

Too far back?
Ooh. Ooh... Can I go back to a 12' screen? Can I?! Huh? Can I?!

-Clarence
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post #15 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 10:02 PM
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It looks like your homing in on a doable plan. Have you done an elevation view?

About the only thing you have to commit to is the projector mount if you do ceiling mount.

Are you going to use a drywall screen and masking?

Maybe going zero tilt/floor oriented is the way to go, for now at least. I'd still prep the ceiling with a healthy service loop though.

I would not be surprised if a 9"er is in your future. Or perhaps some other creature 5 years out from now. Keep your options open as best you can.

You should model the throw and zero tilt on your 14' screen now. I bet zero tilt will sharpen things up a bit. Let me know if you want help with that.
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post #16 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 10:14 PM
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Hey Clarence, can I play too?? :) The contractors are supposed to come in about 3 weeks but we haven't settled on the final floor plan yet. I'm trying to understand the design issues I need to consider for a CRT & possibly other technologies in the future.

What's the typical throw ratio for CRTs? You've got yours 13' back, and that gives you a 10' wide screen? I'd like to hang the projector in the back of the room so it's not in the way visually or head-banging-wise (I'm 6'4"!) but if that means I'd be throwing a 15' image, hmmm... I had thought a 100" screen would be huge, but after seeing all the pix of your 12' screen I'm readjusting my ideas!

I've also got 8' ceilings but I'm not gonna try to do risers. I don't expect to throw big movie parties -- no more than 6-8 people max. So just a couch and a chair or pillow or two oughta do it.

What about the ceiling? We'll be sheetrocking it. What kind of reinforcement or flexible hanging arrangement do I use to be able to support one of these heavy beasties?

I'm thinking of running a 2" PVC pipe through the rafters to a recessed box at the hanging position to make it easy to run new cables.

Gary
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post #17 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Hey Clarence, can I play too?? The contractors are supposed to come in about 3 weeks but we haven't settled on the final floor plan yet.
Hi Gary-

Yep, join in.
Lesson learned #1... just start with a floor plan with a 50'x30' space. Works great in this unfinished basement I'm in now!

For throw distance, there are online calculators and each model has charts in the downloaded manuals, but roughly plan on 120%-130% of screen width.

-Clarence
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post #18 of 981 Old 04-02-2004, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Are you going to use a drywall screen and masking?

Maybe going zero tilt/floor oriented is the way to go, for now at least. I'd still prep the ceiling with a healthy service loop though.

Keep your options open as best you can.

You should model the throw and zero tilt on your 14' screen now. I bet zero tilt will sharpen things up a bit. Let me know if you want help with that.
Yep. I plan on sticking with a painted screen. I have visions of having black side curtains for side masking and an adjustable top/bottom AR mask.

I plan on doing several mock-ups in my current unfinished basement. I was just trying to figure out how many concrete blocks I would need to raise my seat rows to simulate the risers. I'll hang sheets from the rafters to simulate the walls.

My biggest concern with floor mounting is having the lenses at eye level for my young-ones and their friends. I know looking down those lenses is too bright even with contrast=10%.

You plan on visiting tomorrow (er, later today... Saturday) if your plans get rained out?

-Clarence
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post #19 of 981 Old 04-03-2004, 04:12 AM
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It's still 95 days from being "unfinished":cool:

Hey,

My old pal Clarence. I'm a 118 days away from moving into my first home with an unfinished basement. I bet I could learn something from every mistake you make. This should be fun. My basement is a 36x36 with a 12x12 section cut out of one corner. I have no idea how to lay out the laundry and theater and possible other room in there. Maybe I'll do a search for this visio thingie.

-Brian
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post #20 of 981 Old 04-03-2004, 04:33 AM
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Hey,

Forget the floor mount. I've had my projector set up several different ways in the 3.5 years in which I've had it and ceiling mount has always worked better.

Perhaps there not typical but my cats will walk up and look right into the tubes. My kids, well, I don't think they ever did that but I didn't like having the PJ so accessable to them. My current space has a very low ceiling and it used to be an attic so it's a very tight fit but I still ceiling mount it.

-Brian
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post #21 of 981 Old 04-03-2004, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's a side view. I just did it in PowerPoint, so my homemade boxes and ovals are kinda rough. And the measurements and proportionate scalescale are only ~10% accurate.

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-side.gif

I'm thinking ceiling mount still works fine with line of sight even for the back row, and with proper placement, the front row won't bump their heads.

-Clarence
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post #22 of 981 Old 04-03-2004, 07:20 AM
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Clarence,

I don't see how you can do three rows with only 8' of height. I struggled with one 9" riser. With your preference for max screen size I think you're going to be dealing with obstructed views from the projector and/or the people sitting in front of your back rows.

Where is your new place? I'm down the road in Haymarket if you want to see first hand what I did with a 22x12.5x8 space
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post #23 of 981 Old 04-03-2004, 07:23 AM
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Now figure your sight lines to the top and to the bottom of your screen from each position. It's just not going to work with your screen size.
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post #24 of 981 Old 04-03-2004, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Bill-

I'll definitely take you up on the site visit to see your riser in 22x12.5x8. Almost exactly what I'm working with!

I'm in Herndon now. The new house is in Purcellville. We hope to move in around July 4th.

I'll be OOT next week, but let's hook up after taxes. I'll PM you.

Thanks!
Clarence
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post #25 of 981 Old 04-03-2004, 07:49 AM
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Hm, 120-130% of screen width. And you want to sit 150-200% of screen width from the screen. That pretty much kills any idea of putting the projector in a "booth" behind the back wall, which I really liked the sound of. Puts the noise in another space, gets the low-headroom projector out of the way, etc. But if the PJ has to be closer than the viewer, that ain't gonna work.

But now looking at the throw calculator at projectorcentral.com, I randomly picked a Sony VPL-HS20 as a test case. And it says with a 16' throw you can have a 4:3 screen width of 86-103". So that 16' throw is 1.86-2.23x the screen width. Is that atypical?

My viewing space is probably not going to be any more than 15' deep. Let's say I can work a booth into the design so I locate the PJ 16' away. If I shoot for an 8' screen, that's an 8'x6' screen for 4:3, masked off to 8'x4.5' for 16:9. To sit 1.5-2x screen width away, that would be 12-16'. Maybe a bit tight for a 15' room? Or I could always zoom out a bit and make the screen 7' wide for an ideal 1.5-2 viewing range of 11-14'. This still works with a 16' throw.

If many/most PJs have throw ratios like that, I'd definitely like to stick them in a booth out of the way and out of earshot. Trouble is, most of the used PJs I might be able to afford are not listed on the projectorcentral.com throw calculator. Is there a more complete listing somewhere?

Gary
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post #26 of 981 Old 04-03-2004, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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projectorcentral lists digital projectors, not CRT. dPJs typically require longer throws, so they can sit behind the audience.

I'll try to dig up some common CRT distance charts, links, and formulas.

The Marquee chart is attached.

-Clarence
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post #27 of 981 Old 04-03-2004, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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And here's the Electrohome ECP/Marquee distance calculator

But remember to actually test the throw from your actual setup before building the mounting location, because your phosphor usage will affect the throw area.

-Clarence

 

electrohome_distance.zip 27.9072265625k . file
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post #28 of 981 Old 04-03-2004, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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And a Marquee formula:
D = 1.22 x W +10"
Y = D * COS(theta)

see attached graph

-Clarence
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post #29 of 981 Old 04-03-2004, 09:39 AM
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> projectorcentral lists digital projectors, not CRT.

Ohhhh. Duh. No wonder I couldn't find any of the CRTs I've been looking at in their listings. Do you know of anyplace that lists great stats like they do, but for CRTs?

> dPJs typically require longer throws, so they can sit behind the audience.

Even though the CRTs are the ones that really *need* to be in a booth, since they're way heavier (hard to hang from the ceiling) and generally noisier. Bummer. It would be so much simpler to wire &etc in a booth.

> But remember to actually test the throw from your actual setup before building the mounting location, because your phosphor usage will affect the throw area.

You mean I can't know where to hang the PJ until I already have the PJ, and it varies from PJ to PJ based on the level of phosphor burn!? I thought I would build in a strong mount point in the ceiling, along with built-in wiring. Do I have to just guess, and hope the PJ I get can fit within reasonable distance of the wiring I run?

Why does phosphor usage determine distance? Because of the brightness the CRTs can generate, or because burn patterns might restrict the size of the image on the tube, or...?

Are you *sure* CRTs are worth all this hassle!?!?? :) :)
Gary
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post #30 of 981 Old 04-03-2004, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, the 10% inaccuracy in my PowerPoint dimensions were driving me crazy, so I imported it into Visio for better accuracy...

http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-o6.gif

Next... It looks like if I increase the distance between the rows to 4.5', I might be able to have a place to stand without bumping the ceiling mounted projector.

Bill, what was the main challenge you had with your 9" riser? Seated sight-lines to screen?

-Clarence
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