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post #61 of 448 Old 10-19-2004, 12:25 PM
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Gary,

You are doing the correct thing. If you don't understand a specific, change it on the PJ, observe what is happening, if you don't understand, don't save the setting. Come back to this forum and say, I know how to find and manipulate the variable, I just don't understand what it does. I think we are hung up on the mechanics, when you are inquisitive about the theory. Most of us learn from our mistakes, and you have also. Most of us aren't so unfortunate to make a big one right off the bat. Don't worry, most of the modifications you make don't have a path of no return unless you start manipulating pots (focus excluded).
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post #62 of 448 Old 10-19-2004, 01:52 PM
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Gary,
Yes I know and I keep coming back to the service manual. I have been doing this for 17 years and I still dont have it all down.

I have made my mistakes thats for sure and why I refer to 'the understanding' but I had a ton of parts at my disposal I could pull from.

I cringe at some of this because it may be followed by many that want to learn and why I first said something to you about wanting to compile a how to guide. Even that would be followed a different way so it needs the safe way approach.

A short question will keep focus on what your trying to do, a long list of things your trying to do takes up any free time just to read it and dont even know where to start when its jumping all over many problems that relate to so many others.

If you can confirm what the service manual asks for and when using the right input and test patterns you can at least know you have the right voltages and perimeters set safe before going to RGB. This will also eliminate problems associated with a bad processor setting and or signal chain that has faults like RGBHV cables, sync on green, or what ever may be wrong on the head end.

A signal generator is a good friend because if you know how to use it this will give a reference signal and at most of the freqs you will be using, if not then you need to improvise and hope all is well. Video has one cable and you can check the signal on the TV, not perfect but something.

You can use a computer monitor to confirm RGB signals with the right cables to a point.

Again, the default blocks are shown in the manual and you can only use one signal of your choice within any given block. You can overwrite a default by the 'change default' in the signal entry menu.

You will be asked to use phase information or not, its your choice to use it but you need to understand if you use it, this copies all information even if the phase isnt right for the signal (like different porch settings of the signal)
that changes where the image will be located.

Example:
You have 480P entered in the signal entry list and its all adjusted up and phase is correct and this is already stored into that default block. 31.50 kHz

You want to enter 1080I that has different signal properties BUT uses the same default block because its running 32 kHz.

It will use the 480P signal default if default is chosen at the signal entry and it will ask if you want to use the phase settings, say no because it will be off a bit. After you enter the signal correct the tilt and cursor phase and store to that signal line. This is not default, it hasnt been changed to overwrite the 480P signal until you tell it to.

If you want to get rid of the 480P default go into the signal entry then select 'Change default' and it will store the 1080I as the default for that freq block (do this after its completely fine tuned) it overwrites the 480P signal as the default. Remember you can only use one signal entry for one blocks default.

Now, if you have a default stored that was used from a different signal (many years ago) lets say 35 kHz it will still be in the same block but you have no idea if it was front floor, front ceiling, used an interface for shift or forced signal properties or gama corrections, this is called currupt default memory for your application and signal chain and if the pots were changed.
See where the problem is? It will use this if you let it and you will have no idea how it got there.

We use the 'temporary' signal entry line instead of default if your unsure about your default information. If it askes to copy phase just say no and correct after its entered.

If you dont understand this dont go further until you understand.

Using a currupt default to copy from during a data copy is asking for headaches esp if the device had color or porch setting issues before it was used as a default and can shut the projector down if the white balance was built using it, lets say if they were jacked up to make up for a bad cable and stored to default. Add multi data copies and you have crap.

This is just an overview and model number and menus item may be a bit different but you have an idea. Doug
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post #63 of 448 Old 10-19-2004, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, guys. Doug, that explanation helped a lot. I was unclear what "save to default" actually did. I thought it was specifying the default signal that the pj would try to lock onto. And I guess it sort of is, but it's the default signal FOR THAT BLOCK. It's the default signal the pj will lock to for any input that falls within that frequency band.

So I probably want to be able to predict the block something will go into before I start feeding that signal. It's just #lines * refresh rate, right? So your 480p signal at 31.50 kHz must be refreshing at 65.625 Hz? (480 * 65.625 = 31500)

So there's no way for me to know whether the info in the default blocks is any good or not. I guess I'll just have to start out fresh any time I start using a signal that falls into a new block. Don't use the default values, since they could be corrupt. Make a clean signal and save THAT as the new default for that block. Right?

And the effort I'm spending on the VIDEO signal is just setting up the block that handles 480i (block 1, 15 to 25 kHz). Which I won't be watching much. But I think the effort is also intended to get some of the global settings dialled in, and those will apply to all blocks.

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A short question will keep focus on what your trying to do, a long list of things your trying to do takes up any free time just to read it and dont even know where to start when its jumping all over many problems that relate to so many others.
Fair enough, but I'm trying to do ALL of those things!!! :) I'll try to keep my questions a bit more focused.

So assuming I understand the default-block stuff above, let me back up to one (JUST one :)) of my questions:

What's the process for adjusting the grayscale? Which settings do I adjust, in what order? I'm still a bit confused about DRIVE / BRIGHT BIAS (global settings) vs. the KELVIN menu's W/B levels (block/signal-specific settings)...

Gary
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post #64 of 448 Old 10-20-2004, 08:24 AM
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this is an awesome thread for anyone considering whether to buy an NEC projector or NOT :D

Marquee HD mod's Marquee Upgrade/re-build package
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post #65 of 448 Old 10-20-2004, 11:23 AM
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Gary,
Defaults:
You will know if the default is good or not. If it doesnt fit your screen it was stored for a different application other then yours. You can also check phase, if its off then it was for a different signal. If it has a good grayscale with decent grayscale tracking write the information down to try on a new entry.

I sent you a e-mail with the vesa standards, go over that. Take note of refresh rate (Hz) and how it changes kHz. Also sent the block spec ranges.

If you get 'unregistered signal' its not hitting on the exact signal used and just using what was stored into default for that block. If you look in the 'default data' menu it will show if a default is entered for that block, if its empty no default is there or stored. Doug
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post #66 of 448 Old 10-20-2004, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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OK. How do I check phase?

I saw the VESA stds &etc, thanks! But I don't quite see the pattern for calculating the H freq. There doesn't seem to be a straightforward linear relationship between lines-of-resolution, refresh rate, and H freq. Lines * Refresh ends up being about 3-12% below the reported H freq. I thought maybe that was due to the scanlines outside the picture area. But then I looked at 60Hz 640x480 vs. 60Hz 800x600. 600 is 25% more lines than 480, but the reported frequency is only 20% higher.

It would be nice to understand this, since I'll be using non-4:3 AR's, and all those VESA values are for 4:3...

draganm: I think the PG projectors are a whole lot easier to set up. I just got in a bit over my head with this XG. :rolleyes:
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post #67 of 448 Old 10-20-2004, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
draganm: I think the PG projectors are a whole lot easier to set up. I just got in a bit over my head with this XG.
I'm sure you WILL get there it's just a matter of how many coins you will have to drop in the swear-jar along the way. Even my Marquee was tough the first time and it's childs play in comparison

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post #68 of 448 Old 10-20-2004, 12:44 PM
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Gary,
See service manual page 55 / 4-55 Adjusting PHASE (has pictures) Doug

I wanted to show you how the Hz affects the Horiz freq kHz and what takes it out of a block. Lets say 640X 480 is 31.5 at 60 Hz but at 85 Hz its 43. kHz. Its a general way to look at it, Im sure there is a calculater online somewhere for the exact math equation.
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post #69 of 448 Old 10-20-2004, 03:26 PM
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This site is referenced quite often for bandwidth and frequency calculations.

http://www.myhometheater.homestead.c...alculator.html
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post #70 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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ARRGGHGHGHHH!!!

Obviously I still have major problems. I planned to start the calibration process, starting with re-checking the protect 1/2 voltages. I started up the XG displaying Avia through the VIDEO input, and let it warm up for a while. This was the first time I'd thrown an image onto the wall, and it was badly out of focus. So I brought up the crosshair test pattern, and wham! Shutdown. This was after it had been running for a good 20 minutes.

Now, it shuts down as soon as I turn it on. urghghghhhh

Also, confusing/frustrating but MUCH less serious: my lens-to-screen distance ("C" in the manual on p. 3.4) is 120". That means the ceiling-to-center distance ("B") on a 4:3 screen should be just about 37" for a ~87" wide screen. A screen that size is 87*3/4=65" high, so the top of the image should be 37-65/2=4.5" or so from the ceiling. In reality the top of the image is ON the ceiling -- I'd guess it's at least 6" above the top of the wall -- in spite of the fact that the PJ is hanging down almost 5" from the ceiling! Why would that be? The XG is perfectly level, according to my carpenter's level.

So any guesses why the crosshair test pattern shuts down the PJ???

wahhhh

Gary
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post #71 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 09:04 AM
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Gary,
Did you change the polarity for front ceiling? See page 14 / 3-13 Doug

If your using the internal test patterns it will be 10% (larger) overscaned also.

Most likely the error code is FD correct?
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post #72 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I didn't, but it's already set right. The horizontal polarity plug matches the "ceiling, front" picture on p. 3-13, and the image is correct on the screen.

But I'm a lot more concerned about the shutdown on test patterns.
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post #73 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 09:33 AM
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Gary,
Can you confirm its a FD error code? Doug
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post #74 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, I didn't see your edit. Yes, it's always FD when it shuts down. Would the overscan cause the shutdown? What should I do about it?
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post #75 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 10:12 AM
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Gary,
Im assuming you didnt check the HV board specs yet. You will need to put it in the 'test' position to use the 2.5V G2 and hopefully it will start up.

Use the video input with a signal going to it before turning on. If it starts up lower the contrast to 30 and store it as fast as you can. Check the push switches on the HV board for being in the out position. Doug
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post #76 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Nope, I hadn't done the HV test before it started shutting down.

Yes, I've been using video signal in before turning on -- otherwise it usually shuts down. Though one time I tried it this morning and it locked onto PAL and stayed on for maybe 5 minutes before shutting down. Odd?

OK, now I'm REALLY confused.

I fired it up again with Avia running, switch in TEST. Push switches were out. Lowered contrast to 30 and stored. Hooked up my DMM to the protect 2 pins and it was about 0.38V, but for some reason I couldn't get Avia to go to a menu so I could select 100IRE -- I could skip chapters but couldn't get a menu. Futzed with that for a while, then I realized I had a crosshair-like pattern on the screen. Don't *think* I ever hit the test pattern to turn that on, at least not since the last time it shut down. At first I thought it was coming from Avia. But then I stopped the DVD and the crosshair was still showing!? As far as I could tell I wasn't getting a video signal from the DVD, but I was still on the correct NTSC input line. !??

Then I flipped the AKB switch to TEST, which brightened the screen -- and poof, shutdown. Shutdown when I set it to TEST!?

arghghgh
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post #77 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 11:04 AM
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Gary, Doug,

Just a thought. Is it possible to load a new good default setting file (obtained from a working machine) for a video signal into the eprom using the PC control software?

Dotun

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post #78 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 11:13 AM
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Gary,
I would say the G2 is not set to 2.5V for test position, video input or S video. I thought you said it was ok??

Are you sure you have the right remote for the projector? RC 6051 or RC 6321.

If it goes to Pal it doesnt see a video signal, you dont have the video signal entered or you dont have the S video input selected. RGB is input 1, Video is input 2, S-video is input 3.

Check that and also check that your not in switch level one, needs to be standalone if you dont use a ISS controller / switcher.

Its hard to trouble shoot without a reference generator to give a good known signal but confirm the signals before turning on the projector, use a TV, etc. Doug
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post #79 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I would LOVE that, Dotun. I *think* my problems all started when I saved an RGB signal into an Svideo signal. That seems to have hosed up important values somewhere. But I can't figure out what values are wrong. If I could just put the projector into a "known reasonably good" state, so it would quit overloading and shuttind down, that would be a huge improvement. But I think I've adjusted all the important settings: all the ref white balance settings, etc. If I knew what values were likely to cause these problems, I could go normalize them. But there must be more than 100 values lurking around in various menus, and I have no idea which ones are critical.

I'm not 100% certain the erroneous save caused all my problems. When I first got the box, the G2's seemed way off. The G and B were intensely bright (maybe not inappropriately so, not sure) and the R was much dimmer. I was using RGBHV from a laptop to test it, and I started doing Guy's G2 procedure. I don't remember it shutting itself down much (if at all) then. But then Doug said I should use VIDEO instead of RGB, and I got an Svideo cable, and I figured I should reuse the work I'd done on the RGB settings in the new Svideo signal, and... poof. And a month later I'm still trying to get it working.

What in God's name could have gotten messed up in that save operation that would be causing me all this grief!?!???

Doug, Dotun says he can send me the eprom file from his XG. Would that work to get me back in a working state, assuming Dotun's XG is working?


Doug: I did check the reference G2's once long ago, when I had no clue what I was doing. I'm 99% sure it was OK. However it's possible I did that with the RGB. Maybe I'd better go back and check that.

Let's see, that procedure is on 10-24, right? All-white, or gray-scale, or cross-hatch on the screen, S7701 to TEST, all the rest (WB, bright, etc) set as specified on 10-24, then check the RGB G2's for 2.5?

I have a 6051 remote that came with my old PG9 Xtra. Curt said it was basically identical except it didn't have one multi-PJ button. Dotun has the only XG remote that came with our set of 5.

"If it goes to PAL" ... What do you mean I don't have the video signal entered? NTSC3.53 is signal #1. Not 100% sure I've set it as the DEFAULT for the video block -- is that what you mean I should do? Where are you referring to input 1/2/3 for RGB/Video/Svideo? I don't see any mention of that in the signal entry section.

Umm, switch level one. What's that?
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post #80 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 01:30 PM
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Gary,
You not selecting the right input or your not getting the signal if it goes to PAL.

RGB button 1
Video button 2
S-Video button 3

Settings and voltages are set to each specific chassis, if not there wouldnt be variable pots anywhere, they would have fixed resistors. I guess you can try if your not willing to follow. Doug
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post #81 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I think it's only gone to PAL when there was no input in the video.

So button 1/2/3, you're referring to the choice of input as described in p. 25 of the Operation manual? To be honest I hadn't been using that. I thought it was just supposed to figure it out by looking at the signals on the input lines. So I guess I should just hit 2 when I bring it up, and that will get it to look at the VIDEO input. Doesn't say which input line it will use, though. Don't you also feed PAL signals into the VIDEO input? Couldn't it still choose PAL even if you tell it to use the VIDEO input with button 2?

Ya, I figured the eprom settings would be specific to each box. Nice idea but I assumed you would have suggested it a long time ago if it was that easy. But it sure would be nice if there was some way to find out WHAT inputs are throwing it off!
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post #82 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 05:33 PM
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Gary,
Please confirm your signal and connection,
If your connected using the S-Video connector from the DVD player you select Input #3

If your connected using the composite video connector you use Input #2

If your connected using S video and you hit input #2 you wont have a signal. Doug
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post #83 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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For 2-3 weeks I've used nothing but composite video into the VIDEO input. That's what you said to use.

When (if???) I get VIDEO straightened out, then I'll switch over to RGB. Which is what I'll be watching most of the time.
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post #84 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 08:55 PM
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Gary,
I wanted to make sure.
Can you confirm you have a signal out of the DVD player using a TV then hook it up again to the projector running a image. It sounds like you didnt have a signal running.

You need to have it running to store a lower contrast setting. Doug
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post #85 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I did have a signal running, up until the time I noticed the crosshairs. It was stepping through various Avia test patterns last I noticed, which was why I wasn't sure if the crosshairs were Avia or the XG.
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post #86 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 10:38 PM
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Gary,
Dont let it step through. Keep the signal constant. Is it running now or? Doug
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post #87 of 448 Old 10-21-2004, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Not right now, no. I was working on something else. And it's way past my bedtime now. :) I'll give it a shot tomorrow with a constant pattern.
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post #88 of 448 Old 10-22-2004, 12:05 PM
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Gary-

Stick with it, dude...

I picked up an XG135 yesterday.

I did a quick 30 minute setup at lunch today and it's already pretty impressive.

I just pointed it at the wall, but misjudged the throw distance... I ended up with a 10' wide image (see attached). I'll redo it at about 8'. The blinds in this conference room don't completely close, so there's a lot of ambient light. I used flash in this picture too. You can see my cardboard box tripod at the bottom of the picture. The default black levels seem to already be set nicely.

3000 hours... Green tube shows a little wear (including nice capital letters at the top of the screen that says UNCLASSIFIED )

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post #89 of 448 Old 10-22-2004, 12:56 PM
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Clarence,

Can't wait to catch up with you at the next CRT anonymous meeting and trade notes on the XG!

Is it an LC?
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post #90 of 448 Old 10-22-2004, 02:14 PM
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Nope... just a XG 135 (0) non-LC. It's in great shape, but probably too expensive to keep. So I'll play with it a few months, then add it to the pile for sale.

My inlaws are here this weekend, but come by anytime.
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