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post #181 of 448 Old 10-29-2004, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I powered up the XG with no signal input. Interestingly enough it settled on PAL again, even though PAL is now in signal line 12. Wonder why it doesn't select the NTSC3.53 signal in line 01?

So I let it warm up, hooked up the DVD, deleted the TEST 480 signal, created a 720P DVD signal using temporary, input A, RGB -- and it shut down. Urghghgh.

So I checked the signal path. I put the DVD player back on top of the projector and sent the video signal to the HP multisync in the equipment closet. Uh-oh. No red. A quick test shows no continuity on the red cable.

That's a serious problem, since the video cable is built into the ceiling. I can get around it but it'll take time to get a new cable. But the XG shouldn't barf on a signal with no red, should it? Why would it shut down when it's being fed a perfectly good 720p 60Hz signal, but with no red?

Hm. Tried a different cable. This also shut down after several seconds. Put switch in TEST position, started up again, stored low cont/bright.


So, now I have a signal going into my 720P DVD input. I followed the setup from post #165.

* I set the tilt/cursor phase (the PHASE button).
* I set static to 0 on all 3 guns. (STATIC button)
* Backed out blanking (0 on left/bottom, 100 on top/right) and stored.
* H-V linearity was OK -- see pic. Not perfect but I think that's a keystone issue?
* I reduced the image (raster) size a bit, since it seemed pretty big for the tube.
* Checked raster centering. I had to set the H centering to ***100%*** (all the way to the right) on all 3 guns to get it roughly centered. That doesn't seem right!

Here are the white bal values, which came from the "TEMPORARY" I assume?

Drive: 50 na 50
BrBias: 25 25 25
BrGain: 25 23 26
BlBias: 33 34 44

Haven't checked the "H POS" settings yet to see if that changes brightness like we saw before.

What now?
Gary
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post #182 of 448 Old 10-29-2004, 12:13 PM
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Gary,

Check the linearity of the image. If you have AVIA, throw up a grid using the DVD player. Measure from the center to 5-6 grid lines out on your screen, Right and left. Use linearity to correct. This will change your raster centering. Repeat until the image is linear (same amplitude right and left from center) and the raster is centered. If your mechanical set up is correct, this can be fairly easy. If your mechanical set up is off........ more frustration.

Pete
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post #183 of 448 Old 10-29-2004, 12:17 PM
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Gary,
Keep a signal going to the projector at all times. Its not going to take many more shut downs.

It doesnt have memory built for that signal and why it shut down most likely.

On the raster centering normalize each color and store.

Try again but use 480P. Confirm on a monitor that its running a signal.
Do the signal entry and check phase.

Set H-V position to mid point this time, dont push raster centering that far.
At this point dont store until you take a look at the results.

Instead or changing alot here go down each of the functions and normalize this time for each color. Leave kelvin alone this time. Doug
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post #184 of 448 Old 10-29-2004, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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So it's bad to run it with no signal input, even if it doesn't shut it down? (For a normal projector, or just for a limper like mine?)

I have a memory line for 720p now. But I'll do it again for 480p if that's what I need. Confirm on a monitor that (what? the DVD player?) is running a signal? That's what I did before, which is how I noticed the bad red cable. It's painful to switch back & forth (due to the crazy setup to deal with the cables) but I can if I have to.

Do you want me to check the H-V position on the 720p before I start over again with 480p? I forgot to check it on the 720p before. You'd hope it had a sensible midrange default for the H-V position, but maybe not...

OK, start over with 480p, set the cursor/tilt phase, then move through and normalize.... what? Positions, centering, image size, ....?
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post #185 of 448 Old 10-29-2004, 02:15 PM
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Post 165:
Gary,
Basically we want to delete the signal you just put in and send it the right signal. That would have been a mess.

After the signal is entered the correct way you set tilt phase and curser phase.

0= midpoint.
Set static to 0 on all three colors and store.

Set H-V position to 0 and store.

Back OUT blanking and store for now.

Check H V linearity for uniform box size across the screen on cross hatch signal.

Check raster centering. Stop there.

Go into the white balance and write down what you have for values. Everything in kelvin and reference.

Dont go further until we take a look. Doug
------
It would be easier on and the projector you if you use 480P for now.

You left out setting H-V position to mid point.

Until you have set and stored good perimeters it will shut down and will need to be put in the test position to restart. The projector is telling you it wont run under 'normal'. When its unstable like this yes you need to keep a signal going. It doesnt know what to do with out it. Doug

You want to confirm your running a signal through the momo at 31.5 at 60 Hz. with that going look under the info button to confirm the freq informatiom in the projector
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post #186 of 448 Old 10-29-2004, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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$@#, you're right, I missed the H-V normalize.

What's the right way to create a new signal? Do I have to have TWO signal inputs while I do it? One (say, VIDEO) input to give it a good signal to lock onto while I futz with creating the new signal entry, and the new 480p RGBHV for it to lock onto once I create the input? It seems to jump onto the new input signal instantly when you create it so you don't get a chance to move signals around after you've created it.

Should I set it to TEST when I first create the signal, to avoid shutdown until I can store low bright/cont?

I can't confirm what the Momo does. It just says 480p, and Extremephono says it's 60Hz. I can run the custom-config setup in the Momo which is 640x480 31.5kHz 60Hz, but that's now how I'll be using the thing. If it's 480p and it's really 60Hz, I should be OK, shouldn't I? Then I can check the freq on the info button once I've created it.

Once I get 480p set up, THEN will it be safe to run the 720p?? I feel like I'm flailing in the dark here. I started on RGBHV from the laptop, then you told me to use VIDEO, which I used for a month. Then when the H-pos brightness issue came up you said "ah, thought so" and told me to get 640x480 and then 720p. So I got 720p and now you're saying I should use 480p. When does it stop? Do we just keep trying different stuff until I blow the damn thing up!?

Urghghghgh, getting very frustrated. :( And the fact that my brand-new built-into-the-ceiling RGBHV cable has a bad R coax doesn't help my mood any. :(
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post #187 of 448 Old 10-29-2004, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh for @#)%&@)#% )@#%)(@#%) )()*!!!!!

I unhooked the RGBHV from the Momo, and fed it to a monitor to set up 480p. Then I hooked the composite VIDEO back into the XG using the older DVD player I've been testing with all along. I was going to feed it VIDEO to keep it happy while I created the new 480p input.

And the @#$@#$ thing won't power up. I turned it on, and it shut down. I waited a bit, set the switch to TEST, and tried again -- still it shuts down. Even hitting 2 to force it to use VIDEO doesn't help.

AAAAAAARRRRRRRGHGHGHGHGHGHHHH!!!!!!!!

I have just about HAD IT with this @#$@#$ thing! I've been fighting with it for a month, but nothing we try makes it work. I feel like I'm juggling grenades because any day the damn thing is going to blow up from too many shutdowns. I can keep flailing away at it until it smokes and I have to spend $500-1000 to fix it, or I can spend $300 shipping to send it to Doug to put it in order plus whatever parts/etc it takes, or I can just dump the @#$@# thing in the lake and buy a 32" direct-view TV!!!!

<<incoherent ranting>>
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post #188 of 448 Old 10-29-2004, 08:15 PM
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Gary,
Remove the power and take a break. In the morning re read the entire thread.

"Keep a signal going to the projector at all times. Its not going to take many more shut downs" You only need to do this when its running but remember what is needed to get it to fire back up. A low contrast setting stored and for the right input and signal. If you stored low contrast in the 720P set the DVD player back to that and turn on. Just do it in the morning.

Actually we havent tried anything past confirming 'test' voltage G2 for video and why I have a concern. The H position thing is affecting the G2 and or protects1-2. Doug
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post #189 of 448 Old 10-29-2004, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I had a low bright/contrast setting stored for the VIDEO input but I can't guarantee it. I'll set the DVD back to 720p and try it again -- might not be tomorrow.
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post #190 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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So BTW if I bring it up on 720p, then what? Create a 480p, switch over to 480p from the DVD player, and start working on the 480p setup?
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post #191 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 07:08 AM
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Gary,
I'd confirm 720P will turn on and hopefully it has a low contrast stored. Dont change anything in that or store until you can take a look at the H and V position. Leave the kelvin where it is for now.

I suspect the 480P settings that were previously stored are bad and wont allow it to run.

If you used this RGB line to copy from when you did the data copy to video in the first place then I can see why it wont start. Im guessing the white balance you did when you were following Guys procedure is bad and over driving the protects.

If you can get it to fire up on 720P use that to check the perimeters, just dont store anything for now except make sure the contrast is stored low so it wont shut down. You first need to look at what H position is doing to the contrast, dont just ramp it up and down but watch what its doing in small steps. Then take a look at raster centering and see if its normalized.

Ill check back later today. Dont try the 480P yet, we need to get the raster centering set first but we need to confirm whats going on with H position.
Raster centering needs to be the raster, not the image.

Have a video signal running to the projector also, pause it on a low light scene or 20IRE test pattern. Confirm its on RGB if it starts. Stop there. Doug
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post #192 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I suspect the 480P settings that were previously stored are bad and wont allow it to run.
There AREN'T any 480p settings. I deleted the TEST 480 input. I was trying to bring it up on VIDEO, which has been working for over a month, to create a new 480p input, but I never got far enough to do it.

I just set up the DVD for 720p again and was able to bring up the PJ on 720p. So the HV isn't dead yet. I stored cont=0 and bright=0 for now, but I have to turn up the cont or bright fairly high (say, 20 / 60) to see anything on G and R. B is significantly brighter.

INFO screen says 720p is H = 45.01 kHz, V = 60 Hz. Sync is + +.

Kelvin is at midrange, W/B at 0/0 on all guns. STATIC is 0/0.

The H/V positions were at H = -12, V = 4. I experimented (carefully) with the H position and it starts brightening noticeably at -12. I didn't take it much higher than that, only to about -10 or so. I think it would shut down if I got H pos anywhere near 0. (And I think that's why I left it at H = -12 before.)

With H pos at -12, I have to set the Raster Centering at about +30 to keep the raster off the left edge of the tube. Setting it near +100 gets it near the center, but I've left it at +30 for now so I'm not driving the centering too hard.

So if the white balance is bad & overdriving, can I just set it to a low level to quit overdriving things, and worry about getting it right once I get everything else stabilized? If that would work, what should I set low -- Bright Bias, Black Bias?

Current white balance settings are as described in post #181:
Drive: 50 na 50
BrBias: 25 25 25
BrGain: 25 23 26
BlBias: 33 34 44

Gary
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post #193 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 08:39 AM
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Gary,
Can you tell me what you used when you copied the rgb to the video input?

Are the values above all in the minus? Doug
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post #194 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 08:52 AM
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Gary,
Some things to check.

In the settings menu are you in stand-alone mode or switch level one?

Select position 'wide' for progressive RGB and store. Video Interlaced uses 'narrow'.

Normalize amplitude. Note where the static is set if you normalize it (write it down).

Check that you are in the normal switch position.

Stop there and let me know. Hook up the voltmeter to take G2 voltages. Doug
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post #195 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Can you tell me what you used when you copied the rgb to the video input?
Do you mean when I did that over a month ago, and possibly started all the problems? Umm, yes, I still have the laptop RGB input line that I copied to try to make an Svideo input. What values do you want to see? I think it was 1024x768, and the info screen says it was 60.03kHz, 75.03Hz, sync + +.

I deleted that bad Svideo input weeks ago. What values could the copy have affected that would still be around? Or was the copy not the cause of the problem after all?
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Are the values above all in the minus?
?? Do you mean the white balance settings?? Those don't go negative, do they? All other values (H/V pos, etc) I specified the sign in each one. E.g. H pos is -12, V pos is +4.
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In the settings menu are you in stand-alone mode or switch level one?
In ADJUST -> OPTIONS -> SETTING MODE, it says STANDALONE. Which it should, since I don't have a switcher.
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Select position 'wide' for progressive RGB and store. Video Interlaced uses 'narrow'.
It's WIDE. Thanks, that's useful info -- another tidbit that's not explained anywhere.
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Normalize amplitude. Note where the static is set if you normalize it (write it down).
In ADJUST -> ALIGNMENT -> AMPLITUDE I normalized it and it went to V +39 / H +6. (I think that's a bit smaller than it was before, but I didn't note the pre-normalize values.) Then I went into ADJUST -> CONVERGENCE -> AMPLITUDE and normalized R (+10 / -10) and B (-4 / -8). Then I went into the STATIC menu, which I had set to 0/0 for all guns. I normalized all 3 and R was +1 / +3, G & B normalized to 0/0.

BTW what is the difference between NORMAL and CTL + NORMAL? I've just been hitting the NORMAL button.
Quote:
Stop there and let me know. Hook up the voltmeter to take G2 voltages.
With switch in NORMAL pos, and white bal values as shown above, G2's are R 0.64V, G 0.65V, and B 1.20V. But that's with low contrast, low bright, arbitrary display on screen. How did you want it set up to test G2's?

Gary
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post #196 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 09:59 AM
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Gary,
I wanted to make sure we were not in the default block before that you used for the copy (that was a hugh difference to copy to video 60 kHz into 15 kHz, phase would have been really messed up)

Values: Yes I forgot about the % not being plus or minus.

Wide and narrow is in the manual, says narrow can be selected for interlace to clean up some properties.

Standalone: Just wanted to check to be sure.

G2: Not yet we have somethings to do.

-----------------------------------------------

While watching open up blanking on both sides. what happens to contrast. Doug
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post #197 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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"open up blanking" ? It's already backed all the way out to 0/0/100/100. Do you want me to start to bring it in on the sides?

Last time I tried that (weeks ago), I noticed that it shut down if I brought in the right-side blanking lower than about 70-80 or so. See post #94.

I just tried it again, and it started to brighten when the right-side blanking got down in the mid-70's. Very noticeably brighter by 71-72 or so. Not as dramatic/sudden as change when you adjust the the H pos, but definitely there.
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post #198 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 11:03 AM
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Gary,
Normalize it (blanking) and see where it goes to. Doug
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post #199 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Hitting the NORMAL key on all 4 sides leaves it backed all the way out.

Gotta run, back tonight.
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post #200 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 11:21 AM
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Gary,
Good something's set right here that we may be able to work with! Doug

I hate to ask but you didnt 'Init. Eprom' did you sense you have had it? If so tell me now.

For now set the H and V position to 0

Go into DC H Linearity and normalize. See if goes to 0 mid point.

Check for correct tilt and curser phase, you will need to raise brightness but after its set lower brightness.

Set your DMM to DC volts and connect to TP 7504 Green G2, connect it so you can see constant readings on this part, use a insulated clip if you have one but you dont want to tie your hands up and you dont want the clip to touch another TP or anything else.

While viewing the read out you want to keep it below 2.5V so do things in small steps, this is just for checking the H position affect and related things and to keep it from shutting down.

We are in normal for now and it needs to be warmed up for min 20 minutes.

Send it a all white test signal, for now use internal test pattern, its just a rough voltage check and to center the raster.

With the contrast at 0 start to bring up brightness while watching the meter, do this in steps like 30% then check the affect of H position while watching the meter. If your ok then go to contrast and do the same, check H position and try to stay in a close safe voltage range but also keeping the H position as close to mid point as you can.

Try to center the rasters using raster centering (rough) we will do fine later.

If you get to a point where you think its going to shut down stop there and go back into Black Bias green G2 and lower it 5%. Afterwards go back and try the steps again.

Im trying to trouble shoot the H position / Contrast so it needs to be kept in a safe condition and why I dont just want to use 'test'.

If you can get it in the 60% brightness range and contrast above 50% with H position not ramping it over 2.5V stop there and let me know where you have Black Bias set to for green. This will help me understand if its within range where we can do the 'test' position without shutting down. Doug
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post #201 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I hate to ask but you didnt 'Init. Eprom' did you sense you have had it? If so tell me now.
Oh no. You said that was a Very Bad Thing so I didn't do it.
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For now set the H and V position to 0
I can't!! If the H pos goes much above -12 it will shut down!
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Send it a all white test signal, for now use internal test pattern,
I don't think I've tried it with the new 720 input, but the all-white test pattern was causing a shutdown before. Even with bright=cont=0. No wait, post #131 had the contrast at 100. Maybe cont=0 will work.

I'll try to get to this tonight.
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post #202 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 05:29 PM
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Gary,
If you want use internal grayscale before all white. The grayscale will give you a lower overall to take a look at, if its ok then go to all white. Doug
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post #203 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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With H pos at -20 or so, the left edge of the raster/image "folds under." As I increase it, the fold-under unfolds and goes away.

With cont=bright=0, I am able to set H pos to 0.

Normalize DC H linearity: I think I remember reading about DC H linearity, but I don't see any instance of the string "DC" in the setup guide or operation manual. I only see the LINEARITY adjustments in ALIGNMENT/CONVERGENCE menus. Where is DC H linearity?

Set tilt/cursor phase: I didn't need to raise brightness to do this. My B and G tubes are plenty bright on test patterns even with cont=bright=0.

Display internal grayscale and check green G2: I displayed the grayscale, and as I went to hook up my DMM, it shut down. It ran for maybe 30-40 secs on the grayscale before it shut down. Full white probably would have shut down quicker.

Should I back the H pos off to -20 so it doesn't shut down, and then proceed?
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post #204 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 08:30 PM
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Gary,
The last item in the alignment menu is DC H Linearity. Doug

Where is the H position when the fold is ok?

Can you take a picture of your phase corrected?

You need to connect the DMM as mentioned above, the 2.5V needs to be monitored but back H position down to where it run. Doug
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post #205 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
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So it is. It's not in the manual, though.

It was at 0. NORMAL left it at 0.

OK. Now try the internal grayscale with H pos at -20?
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post #206 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 08:43 PM
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Gary,
I need you to answer the above first and take a picture. Doug
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post #207 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, didn't see your edit.

The fold disappears just about at H = -18.

Picture of phase adjustment is attached. You can see some fold-under there. That was before I set H pos to -18, but I think it was only -20 then. I think there is more fold-under with the phase test pattern than with the regular raster.

Test leads are attached with insulated clips.

Now...?
LL
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post #208 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 09:05 PM
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Gary,
Lets try something with curser phase (up down buttons) try moving and see if it corrects the folds. Doug
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post #209 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 09:08 PM
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BTW:
It looks like V position isnt at mid point. Whips back. Doug
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post #210 of 448 Old 10-30-2004, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Not that I can see. The left-right buttons cause the folds to move up/down, but the up-down buttons don't seem to affect the folds at all.
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