Former CRT "experts" Hidden Agendas? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I was just wondering how all of you felt about these guys who were considered experts in their field of CRT set-up, sales, and service who have now jumped ship, dumped their G90s, and are pushing FPDs like they are the best thing since sliced bread. Some of these gentleman are making statements like everything is better with an HD2+ chipped machine except black-levels. Others are downright oppressive with their opinion to the effect of "if you are using CRT you are stuck in the dark ages" . Do you guys feel that there is truth to their statements or is there simply a hidden agenda here? I mean if you were faced with the prospect of only being able to conduct business with a product that's no longer being manufactured by a major corporation like Sony or Panansonic, wouldn't you make a sound business decision and move on? Maybe endorsing something that's not quite as good but readily available? I have serious doubts when I hear someone say " with the HD2+ machine it was like watching all my favorite movies for the first time again versus my old G90" . I find that more than a little hard to believe.

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post #2 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 11:59 AM
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I just assumed everyone knew that, money makes the opinions change....
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post #3 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 12:02 PM
 
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GOD,

Who know what they would say if they were politicians? Talk about bought by the great and almighty dollar (or what ever the french thing is). :)

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post #4 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 12:30 PM
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I don't mind... they're still talking about the $10,000-$30,000 dPJs... it takes early adopters like that to give manufacturers motivation to continue making improvements and lowering the prices on future models.

I see this helping me in 2 phases...

I've got enough projectors to last me 3 years (ok, I've got enough projectors to last me 300 years). In 2-3 years I suspect the $10000+ dPJs will push 9" CRTs into my range. Then I'll get 2-3 years out of those CRTs.

So that gives manufacturers 4-6 years to get a dPJ that affordably exceeds a G90.

Look at the leap made from dPJs from 4-6 years ago to the ones available today. Now interpolate 4-6 years from now. Resolution continues to increase and SDE/pixelation continues to decrease, bulb life improves, black levels and CR improves.

Get me a <$2000 dPJ with a <$200 replacement bulb that lasts 2000-4000 hours giving 2000 lumens. I don't have a problem with that... But that's about the most I'll pay for disposable consumer electronics.

Let the high-enders jump like lemmings following hyped persuasion.
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post #5 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 01:25 PM
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Geeze, you'd think there was a mass defection. How many of the available G-90's around here have been dumped for for something else. Two-three. If you prefer CRT then you should be happy. As long as there are people like Curt around who has a passion for this hobby and places like E-bay to find parts units, I'll stick with CRT. Thanks,

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post #6 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 01:39 PM
 
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Quote:
I have serious doubts when I hear someone say " with the HD2+ machine it was like watching all my favorite movies for the first time again versus my old G90"
I don't know what "experts" claim that, but you seem to be taking a swipe at Phelps specifically, which seems misleading.

There are times where a user may need an HD2+ in their situation instead, and they are a great picture at a not as exorbitant price as the 3-chippers or the 1080 LCOS units, but I don't see any experts claiming that HD2+ are all that over even 8inch CRTs.

The landscape is different with the highest end FPD units, but I don't think that dragnm's characterization is reality.

People do have different tastes in video you know...
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post #7 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 01:57 PM
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I personally don't care. If they believe what they claim then so be it. We may never know their true motives but it really doesn't matter anyway. I have seen the Qualia calibrated to somewhere between 1900:1 and 2000:1 and I wouldn't trade my XG for it. Let alone the G70 I'm getting ready to retube. Sure it had a nice picture but suffered from the same flat picture I have seen before. The fluid 3D effect I see in CRT wasn't there. Just like DarinP and William Phelps prefer the new LCOS machines over CRT I feel just the opposite. I value both of their opinions and feel they have contributed greatly to this hobby but we each have our preferences and priorities. I personally don't agree with their assessments but I still respect their opinions.
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post #8 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 03:31 PM
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I can't add anything to this. Paul and Pete said it best..:)

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post #9 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by draganm
I was just wondering how all of you felt about these guys who were considered experts in their field of CRT set-up, sales, and service who have now jumped ship, dumped their G90s, and are pushing FPDs like they are the best thing since sliced bread. Some of these gentleman are making statements like everything is better with an HD2+ chipped machine except black-levels. Others are downright oppressive with their opinion to the effect of "if you are using CRT you are stuck in the dark ages" . Do you guys feel that there is truth to their statements or is there simply a hidden agenda here? I mean if you were faced with the prospect of only being able to conduct business with a product that's no longer being manufactured by a major corporation like Sony or Panansonic, wouldn't you make a sound business decision and move on? Maybe endorsing something that's not quite as good but readily available? I have serious doubts when I hear someone say " with the HD2+ machine it was like watching all my favorite movies for the first time again versus my old G90" . I find that more than a little hard to believe.
Then by the same logic, can it not be said that we shouldn't listen to Curt and other CRT resellers because that's where they make their money? You know, some people like digitals. I just wonder why people take it so personally.

No matter what, it's digital projectors that are bringing front projection home theatre into the mainstream, and that is good for all of us.

Clarence, you expect digitals to push 9"ers into your price range in 2 - 3 years? I can see your post now: I had to drive 12 hours, but I got my G-90 with minty tubes for a case of beer. The guy threw in another G-90 when he saw it was Canadian beer! :D :D

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post #10 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 05:40 PM
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Yes, I think 9" will be in my price range in 2-3 years... maybe not a G90 (it doesn't hurt to dream) but I predict I'll stumble into a 9500 or 1209 before too long; even if I have to pay 2x-3x more than I paid for my 8500's ;)

There are a lot more facilities, simulators, control rooms, production rooms, conference rooms, etc out there that'll be switching over to tiny, bright, easy to setup hi-res digitals.
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post #11 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcorsyscom
Yes, I think 9" will be in my price range in 2-3 years... maybe not a G90 (it doesn't hurt to dream) but I predict I'll stumble into a 9500 or 1209 before too long; even if I have to pay 2x-3x more than I paid for my 8500's ;)

There are a lot more facilities, simulators, control rooms, production rooms, conference rooms, etc out there that'll be switching over to tiny, bright, easy to setup hi-res digitals.
Heck, I passed on a $600 9"er the other day. But then again, Barco 1500's aren't the most sought after projectors are they?

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post #12 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 06:17 PM
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I've never heard of the Barco 1500.
Similar to the 1200?
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post #13 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by marcorsyscom
I've never heard of the Barco 1500.
Similar to the 1200?
Ya got me. It's probably shaped like a 1200 at least...

But when I lifted the cover and saw about a billion little adjustment knobs I got a bit scared. The projector was just a bit too analog. Even for a CRT.

When I got home and read Curts FAQ I figured I had made the right choice. He mentions the 1500 and something about expensive and hard to find tubes.

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post #14 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 07:04 PM
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Did QQQ put you up to this?

Chip

Current owner of the last/best AmPro on the planet. The mighty 4600HD, and it's still running...better than Barco's, especially southern ones.
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post #15 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 09:13 PM
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OK ,here goes and probably this thread will not only be closed but expunged like some of the others.

I've seen essentially everything high end out there and some things high end not yet out there. This includes every major CRT . two HD2Ks, the Faroudja HD2K version, Qualia 004, JVC QX1, the Runco 5000ci, several three chip DLPs including the new Marantz, two DPI models and the Runco 1080 x1920 three chip that's coming.

It is sad that CRT is being given up by manufacturers but it isn't because they've found something that produces a superior picture, it's because they are bright,sharp and easy. These are very important don't get me wrong and there is a big pull to be able to resolve full 1920 pixels but my opinion is that overall picture quality is still held by 9" LC CRT. The poll asked the right questions ( except for picture being better in almost every way ) .

I've spoken to folks on this forum who are digital dealers who will agree with me but the politics and putting food on the table have made it impossible for them to speak up publically.

I still think that we are out a ways from the fixed pixel FP superseding top CRT in presenting the pinnacle in PQ in a home.

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post #16 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 10:10 PM
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Here is an engineering perspective, - at this time all digital projectors suffer from several fundamental design challenges.

The compartment housing the bulb cannot be made absolutely 100% light efficient. In other words, some percentage of light that the bulb generates does escape. We call it leakage. This leads to problems with contrast and we all know that those problems manifest themselves with blacks that look more like grey. It does not matter if we are looking at $25k 3-chip projector or if it’s a lowly 1-chip unit. It also does not matter if it’s a DLP or LCD technology. The servo-controlled iris helps a bit but it does not solve the problem in fundamental way. At this time there is no solution for this problem that I am aware off.

I often think of a conceptual analogy that can be made between the Digital Projectors and modern 24-bit D/A chips used in audio. Yes, those 24-bit converters had internal 24 bit architecture boasting a theoretical 144 dB S/N, but due to high internal clocks the lower 4-6 bits (or sometimes more) are completely masked by noise resulting in a 16-bit converter and that is on a good day! Similar picture exists in a digital video world. Yes, the internal matrix, be it a DLP or a LCD engine can theoretically resolve the grey scale all the way down to zero, but the noise or leakage of light kills that considerably.

Another fundamental problem is bulb design. The inability to turn the current off instantaneously only compounds the problem of inferior contrast. This is the area that holds the most promise, but the technology that can achieve what we all need is outrageously expensive and there is no way to tell when it will become cheaper if ever. Right now most people are content with inferior blacks so there is no impetus out there to change anything dramatically.

Mind you, in order to fix the light leakage problem the thinking behind the design of Digital Technology must completely change. I do not have a clue how to fix this. 3-chip digitals will get you the same or nearly the same colors as the CRT, a bit better sharpness, particularly in the corners and comparable overall impression from the bright scenes, but this is where it ends. The fundamental engineering shortcomings that cannot be solved at this time will cripple the dynamic range of any digital projector out there regardless of the price.

With this in mind our CRTs will continue to reign supreme since the CRT technology is the only one so far that has the dynamic range somewhat approximating the resolving ability of our eyes. The Digital Projectors do not even come close on this score. This is why Art commented that he did not see anything Digital approaching the quality he gets from his G90s.

My fear is that we will be forced to switch away from the CRTs by the interface requirement. I for once will try my very best to come with a DVI solution for my 9500LC Ultra legalities notwithstanding.

Vadim
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post #17 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Clarence
Yes, I think 9" will be in my price range in 2-3 years... maybe not a G90 (it doesn't hurt to dream) but I predict I'll stumble into a 9500 or 1209 before too long; even if I have to pay 2x-3x more than I paid for my 8500's ;)

There are a lot more facilities, simulators, control rooms, production rooms, conference rooms, etc out there that'll be switching over to tiny, bright, easy to setup hi-res digitals.
clarence hold out for the 9500. you dont need minty tubes to be happy with a 9500 trust me. Find one with 10k+ hours like i did and when you can afford it send them in to vdc. i was told yesterday that if i send mine in fully assembled i will get back 3 brand new panasonics fully assembled for 1115 each +100 for a new c element(mine is burned). you cant beat that!
I was in home depot and picked up a 6'/3' sheet of plexi glass for $58 and put it in front of my rp screen(you know the one i mean) closed down my opening and set up at 68" wide. the picture is F*cking insane ! the plexi keeps the screen perfectly flat and somehow the picture seems brighter and sharper and seems to help with ambient light. I will of course be getting an 8' wide peice asap but till then ill just sit closer to the screen. at 68" wide the picture this thing throws gets even the wife exited ! I can even make it look like WP's new pj if i want to. I just turn on the light in the pj room.:p
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post #18 of 542 Old 10-02-2004, 11:19 PM
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Oh yeah,and Ill take credit for my Phelps Shmelps post preceeding this very informative thread. go clammer, go clammer :)
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post #19 of 542 Old 10-03-2004, 08:13 AM
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Art and others
How many newly built 9 inch lc crts could be sold at 20-70k$? If we add how some projectors would be installed the advantage of crts would be lost.

I agree that the problem is that the light from the bulb can not be eliminated enough. Let us see how far technology like the one in Sony hs50 and coming Epson lcds will take the digitals. I predict that within 2 years black will be black with digitals unless you are totally obssessed and are counting individual photons.

Do crt owners have a hidden agenda?

Mattias Ohlson
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post #20 of 542 Old 10-03-2004, 08:45 AM
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Ohlson,
Quote:
Originally posted by Ohlson
Art and others
How many newly built 9 inch lc crts could be sold at 20-70k$? If we add how some projectors would be installed the advantage of crts would be lost.

I agree that the problem is that the light from the bulb can not be eliminated enough. Let us see how far technology like the one in Sony hs50 and coming Epson lcds will take the digitals. I predict that within 2 years black will be black with digitals unless you are totally obssessed and are counting individual photons.

Do crt owners have a hidden agenda?
This is a lot easier said then done. I know that the Digital technology is capable of a dynamic range that is necessary for an outstanding picture. The issue is that the implementation is not here yet. As I noted before, the engineering approach to the image generation must be changed in order to improve the grey scale of Digital projectors and bring them closer to what the CRTs have been doing for many years. The number of chips involved is not important here; 3-chip designs are not any further ahead on this issue then the 1-chip designs.

There is something about focusing the light from the bulb onto a either reflective or transmissive matrix that so far cannot be done with acceptable losses. The engineers must rethink in the fundamental way how this process is done. The CRT has no such issues and consequently delivers the image we all want.

Believe me, I’ll be the first one to retire my 9500LC Ultra in favor of something smaller. Also, the 9-inch CRT does not cost $20k any longer. It is by a factor of 3-4 cheaper then any 3-chip digitals I know. What we will see very soon is the 3-chip digitals will be sold for as much as 9-inch used CRT, - $3-8k. This will happen within 2-3 years. However the image quality gap will still be there. The demise of a CRT will come courtesy of the interface problem not because the Digital technology will somehow pull ahead.

Well, the problem of light leakage has not been solved and no amount of wishful thinking will bring the solution any closer. I also do hope that it happens sooner then later, but I am not holding my breath. Remember, that most mortals do not care for the black levels that you and I care about, so why should the manufacturers invest in a solution that only really benefits a few? The current digital projection scheme is fast approaching a performance saturation level, whereby any other improvements will be very incremental. I do not think that there is a solution to the light leakage problem within the existing design framework.

I see the future in flat panel displays. The technology that will deliver an 8 feet wide modular flat display with adequate dynamic range is just around the corner. The cost will be around $10k within 5 years.

Vadim
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post #21 of 542 Old 10-03-2004, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ohlson
Art and others
How many newly built 9 inch lc crts could be sold at 20-70k$? If we add how some projectors would be installed the advantage of crts would be lost.

I agree that the problem is that the light from the bulb can not be eliminated enough. Let us see how far technology like the one in Sony hs50 and coming Epson lcds will take the digitals. I predict that within 2 years black will be black with digitals unless you are totally obssessed and are counting individual photons.

Do crt owners have a hidden agenda?
Mattias,
You are good man, you love this stuff so just that puts you way up there in my book. I hope black will be black in fixed pixel PJs sooner rather than later also, Shoot, I had hoped that it would have been so at CEDIA 2003 when I saw Qualia and the HD2K , I might have purchased a Qualia instead . My opinion is, except for blacks and his brothers CR and depth the Qualia type may be there for me now. I'd need to be sure that this PJ could light up a 12' wide screen with between 10 and 14fL in it's mode that has true black, which I question that it could or will. But the technology is very nice indeed except for that. But that is a gigantic consideration. I looked around again at CEDIA 2004 came home fired up my system and got this rush that one gets from being in love , even the QX1, on a 20' screen ,as cool as that is , you couldn't give me if I had to give up what I see in my home in the transaction ($ 225,000 ).

I think your point of how many installs CRTs can get at that price isn't there and you hit the nail., and the point of the thread and in saying that have further validated the poll response, economics not PQ has driven these guys. Personally I see no problem with this. I have to do it in my work, since acceptance of things in our culture which take a lot of time and work, that result in excellence ,as opposed to things which might be fast and give a good result isn't the desired way. The problem is if folks purport that it is otherwise , this is the issue and the point of this thread. It's my belief that today the overall PQ king is 9" LC CRT. It may be surpassed in two years, and I hope so since it will then be easier to have what I want in my home than it is now , but I wanted excellence even if that required going the hard way to get it.

Art

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post #22 of 542 Old 10-03-2004, 08:50 AM
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Well the people we're talking about are salesmen, aren't they? Selling is how they make their living, isn't it? That doesn't make them bad people, but it's naive to think they make, or are even capable of making, objective statements.

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post #23 of 542 Old 10-03-2004, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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OK ,here goes and probably this thread will not only be closed but expunged like some of the others.
wow I hope not, I've never had any of my threads moderated, much less expunged:( I think this thread has a lot of very thoughtful and insightful answers without any hositility (so far), that is really cool and why I like this board more than any others I can think of.
Vadim has probably hit the nail on the head when he says
Quote:
I see the future in flat panel displays. The technology that will deliver an 8 feet wide modular flat display with adequate dynamic range is just around the corner. The cost will be around $10k within 5 years.
That's usually how things turn out, all competing projection technologys will get blind-sided by something none of us ever saw coming. A giant plasma like display that you can unroll like a beach towel and hang on the wall. Of course an 8 ffet wide display will not satisfy the serious HTr's like Art, so some of us will still be hoarding 9" CRTs like Hemi Cuda's:D

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post #24 of 542 Old 10-03-2004, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by draganm
wow I hope not, I've never had any of my threads moderated, much less expunged:( I think this thread has a lot of very thoughtful and insightful answers without any hositility (so far), that is really cool and why I like this board more than any others I can think of.
Perhaps then you didn't post in the thread in which a prominent member said he was dumping his CRT since now LCOS was better.

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post #25 of 542 Old 10-03-2004, 04:01 PM
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Art
Did you see that post I made about laser sxrd? It was just a weird notice of a laser sxrd showing in Brazil. I wonder if that was for real and how quickly it can become real. The thread soon went off topic. Perhaps there will be competition for Eclipse. The digital projectors need that "bulb" that can be given analog modulation in real time.

Mattias Ohlson
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post #26 of 542 Old 10-03-2004, 04:16 PM
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Mattias,
I think I did see that but your laser proclivity, I believe, took some of the steam out of the announcement .:)

Art

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post #27 of 542 Old 10-03-2004, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by draganm
I have serious doubts when I hear someone say " with the HD2+ machine it was like watching all my favorite movies for the first time again versus my old G90" . I find that more than a little hard to believe.
Well, since you appear to be quoting me, I will respond.

I reported my personal experience, accurately. You can find it as hard to believe as you wish, but I have now sold my G90 and am replacing it with an HD2K as soon as I can get one, and I will pay real $$$ for the HD2K. Why would I do this if I didn't think the picture was better? Anyone who knows me can tell you that I would keep the G90 if it were better. Nearly everyone in my astronomy club as a reflector telescope, and I stick with my apo refractor because, to my eyes and for the things that I observe, it is the best telescope I have ever observed with.

I am happy for anyone who thinks CRT is better. It still is in some specific areas, no question. But for me, after living with an HD2K for a couple of weeks, I found that the G90 fell flat. It was no longer good enough. And yes, everytime I watch an "old favorite", to me it's like watching it for the first time again. And, since Art keeps wanting to indirectly quote all those other people that aren't here, I am not alone in this. We did several private demos in the evening at CEDIA this year, and a lot of people were equally impressed. These were people in the press and in the business, who have a lot of experience.

If you think CRT is better, by all means go with (or stick with) it! You should be very happy, because that is a much more cost effective solution now, given the prices of really good CRT projectors now. I would be thrilled with a good 9500LC or G90 on an appropriate sized screen. My G90 still produces one of the best pictures I have ever seen, it will be very difficult (and emotional) to take it down next week.

But please don't accuse me of bias or lying because of some reason you are convinced of. It's simply not true. I have reported my personal experience, nothing more, and I have reported it honestly. I stand behind what I write.

And I'm still one of the best at setting up a high end CRT projector!

William

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post #28 of 542 Old 10-03-2004, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Art Sonneborn
Perhaps then you didn't post in the thread in which a prominent member said he was dumping his CRT since now LCOS was better.

Art
No threads have been expunged because of the CRT vs LCOS discussion. The one thread I know of that was expunged had gotten out of hand on an off topic discussion. Shame on you, Art!

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post #29 of 542 Old 10-03-2004, 07:11 PM
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Sheeet Ohly, send me some of that stuff you're smokin!!



Quote:
Originally posted by Ohlson
Art and others
How many newly built 9 inch lc crts could be sold at 20-70k$? If we add how some projectors would be installed the advantage of crts would be lost.

I agree that the problem is that the light from the bulb can not be eliminated enough. Let us see how far technology like the one in Sony hs50 and coming Epson lcds will take the digitals. I predict that within 2 years black will be black with digitals unless you are totally obssessed and are counting individual photons.

Do crt owners have a hidden agenda?

We used to hunt and fish to survive. Now we have to work 50 wks. a year so we can take a couple of weeks off to hunt and fish
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post #30 of 542 Old 10-03-2004, 07:18 PM
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And Maybe you'll put 300 hours on your new unit before you dump that for somethin else.




Quote:
Originally posted by wm
Well, since you appear to be quoting me, I will respond.

I reported my personal experience, accurately. You can find it as hard to believe as you wish, but I have now sold my G90 and am replacing it with an HD2K as soon as I can get one, and I will pay real $$$ for the HD2K. Why would I do this if I didn't think the picture was better? Anyone who knows me can tell you that I would keep the G90 if it were better. Nearly everyone in my astronomy club as a reflector telescope, and I stick with my apo refractor because, to my eyes and for the things that I observe, it is the best telescope I have ever observed with.

I am happy for anyone who thinks CRT is better. It still is in some specific areas, no question. But for me, after living with an HD2K for a couple of weeks, I found that the G90 fell flat. It was no longer good enough. And yes, everytime I watch an "old favorite", to me it's like watching it for the first time again. And, since Art keeps wanting to indirectly quote all those other people that aren't here, I am not alone in this. We did several private demos in the evening at CEDIA this year, and a lot of people were equally impressed. These were people in the press and in the business, who have a lot of experience.

If you think CRT is better, by all means go with (or stick with) it! You should be very happy, because that is a much more cost effective solution now, given the prices of really good CRT projectors now. I would be thrilled with a good 9500LC or G90 on an appropriate sized screen. My G90 still produces one of the best pictures I have ever seen, it will be very difficult (and emotional) to take it down next week.

But please don't accuse me of bias or lying because of some reason you are convinced of. It's simply not true. I have reported my personal experience, nothing more, and I have reported it honestly. I stand behind what I write.

And I'm still one of the best at setting up a high end CRT projector!

William

We used to hunt and fish to survive. Now we have to work 50 wks. a year so we can take a couple of weeks off to hunt and fish
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