Torus and CRT - A Torrific Combo - Part 1 - Page 7 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 276 Old 05-02-2005, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by garyfritz
[b]Ah. Hadn't thought of that. I was thinking you'd refer to the center of the screen, which should be almost at the wall -- but even that will be a few inches off. So yes, a torus would cramp me even more.
in my case, the torus is on a stand with legs so this adds a few inches from the wall

if you attached the frame directly tothe wall you could cut the distance in the center


Quote:
Doubling the gain of the fabric, you mean? That's what I was guessing too. But if the fabric has 3x the gain of my current BO screen -- which I'm guessing is a hair under 1.0, maybe 0.9 or so -- then 3x for fabric and 2x for torus gives me a 6x boost over my current setup, which reads 11 ftL off the screen.
no - my point is that Vutec claims it is 3.1 but no way is it 3 times as bright..their Silverstar they claim is a 6.0 gain but the consensus is that it is only about 2.4 times the perceived brightness and I think even the 2.4 is high..

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Sounds to me like I should forget the torus idea. I have too little room, and too many lumens, for it to make sense. But maybe some Pearlbrite on a simple curved screen, hmmm... :)
for the relatively low cost of the material it is worth trying - I'd advise you buy a big enough piece because it can't be that much more difficult to make the frame a torus shape..

John
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post #182 of 276 Old 05-02-2005, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MC Maniac
That's great Darin!

I'm happy to see someone spring and get that screen..:)

Refresh my memory here - I think you plan on modifying the digital to improve the contrast - so you need the extra brightness to get you back even?

do I have that right?
Yep. That is pretty much the plan. When I get it I can do some measurements off the screen, then try to calculate what kind of lumens range I will want from the projector, then see if I can achieve a reasonable tradeoff of lumens and CR. I may end up using a neutral density filter for movies and take it off when I want bright images. All this does depend on it working reasonably well with a digital as far as focus, curves or not at the edges of the images, etc. CRTs have the advantage of being able to shape the images.

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post #183 of 276 Old 05-02-2005, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Darin,

Good luck with your experiment..

I was planning on inviting a fellow AVS to bring his digital over to see how it does on the Torus..

This should be of interest to any projector owner - certainly more interesting than the bandwidth we waste around here in the endless and tiresome digital vs CRT debates..

John
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post #184 of 276 Old 05-04-2005, 02:16 PM
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My Mocom screen showed up yesterday and I set it up last night. I'm still trying to figure out where the projector should go for the best effect. The screen is 87" wide and I put pieces of string across the center vertically and horizontally to see how curved it is. The horizontal string was about 2.5" from the center of the screen and the vertical one maybe 1.5" or so. I thought the projector was supposed to go at 4.5 meters from Mocom's site, but I'm not sure. I think there is an instruction manual on their site, but I couldn't get it to open on my PC. So far it is pretty bright in the center and I'm trying to figure out how to situate things to not give too much falloff toward the edges of the screen. I'm not sure whether moving the projector closer to the screen or further away is my best bet at this point.

I may send an email to Curt and see if he would ever be interested in stopping by with a CRT to get his impression of the screen for his customers, since he is one of the few hauling CRTs around and I know he comes down near Seattle. Taking the screen to another person's house would not be easy (or necessarily safe).

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post #185 of 276 Old 05-04-2005, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2
My Mocom screen showed up yesterday and I set it up last night.
My that was fast..:)

Quote:
I'm still trying to figure out where the projector should go for the best effect. The screen is 87" wide and I put pieces of string across the center vertically and horizontally to see how curved it is. The horizontal string was about 2.5" from the center of the screen and the vertical one maybe 1.5" or so.
it doesn't seem as curved as I would have expected - mine is 108" W

horizontal depth is 8.25" and 3" on the vertical..


Quote:
I thought the projector was supposed to go at 4.5 meters from Mocom's site, but I'm not sure. I think there is an instruction manual on their site, but I couldn't get it to open on my PC. So far it is pretty bright in the center and I'm trying to figure out how to situate things to not give too much falloff toward the edges of the screen. I'm not sure whether moving the projector closer to the screen or further away is my best bet at this point.
you will need to experiment here - I basically split the 8" depth and used this as the assumed starting point..

With a depth of 2.5" my guess is that your focus should be good all over splitting the 2.5"..Mocom may have intentionally lowered the curve depth so that there would be even focus across the whole screen with a digital..

Quote:
I may send an email to Curt and see if he would ever be interested in stopping by with a CRT to get his impression of the screen for his customers, since he is one of the few hauling CRTs around and I know he comes down near Seattle. Taking the screen to another person's house would not be easy (or necessarily safe).
I sure wouldn't be transporting the screen - any little mark and you'll always see it..

John
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post #186 of 276 Old 05-19-2005, 12:32 PM
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I'm getting ready to build a 120"torus and would like to know if anyone has tried focusing a 1272Q w/ one.
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post #187 of 276 Old 05-20-2005, 09:50 AM
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Does Lumin have a potential Torus screen material? I have glanced at the website and I can't understand what the screen is made of.

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post #188 of 276 Old 05-20-2005, 10:32 AM
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20 gain with 140deg viewing area!? Ya right!

They claim the "Silver Screen" has a 10 or 20 gain (2 screen types) with a 160deg viewing angle, with a half-gain angle of 66deg. That's still hard to believe you could get that much gain and only half dropoff at 66deg, presumably 33deg off-axis.

If it really works that way, put it on a torus or a curved backing, and who needs light control?

Would be interesting to hear how much these wunderscreens cost...
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post #189 of 276 Old 05-20-2005, 10:41 AM
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Ericglo, was it you who mentioned that you don't like the Pearl material? If so why?

James

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post #190 of 276 Old 05-20-2005, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ericglo
Does Lumin have a potential Torus screen material? I have glanced at the website and I can't understand what the screen is made of.

Ericglo
Looks promising..The Silver Screen...

"Can be molded, cut or shaped to any form."

Why not contact em and get a quote?....no harm in asking

John
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post #191 of 276 Old 05-20-2005, 01:24 PM
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John,
I was going to, but I don't have time right now.

James,
I don't know. It just doesn't look right to me. Like I said maybe I just need to see a full size screen. I am going to Atlanta at the end of June, so I might stop by Terry's place. Let me add that I also like the high gain that I got with my aluminized mylar sample. I will attach a pic. On top is the Pearl, middle is my mylar and bottom is a Silverstar.

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post #192 of 276 Old 05-20-2005, 02:10 PM
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Hmmm... It's hard to tell from a picture, they all look pretty similar.

I know when I did experiments with aluminum paint, I liked what I saw on small samples. It was when I tried a full screen I saw the shortcomings. I wonder if the mylar has a similar sheen as the aluminum paint did.

The first time I tried the PearlBrite I just pinned it up to a wall. I have to say it didn't look very good. When I tried it under tension it really shone (pun intended..).

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post #193 of 276 Old 05-20-2005, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
How badly does this Pearlbrite stuff hotspot on a flat screen? Badly, I assume, with a gain like that.
It's pretty bad. The main thing besides the really bad colorshift (really most noticeable on bright scenes, but distracting on those) is the hotspotting. Really the problem is that you don't get the benefit of the high gain all the way across the screen. I just finished putting up a reduced-curve torus and I'm very happy so far, basically I used gentler curves to help reduce the focus and convergence issues I had the first time, yet get some of the torus advantages. So far I'm very happy with it. I'll post some more details if you're interested.
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post #194 of 276 Old 05-20-2005, 09:44 PM
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So even though it colorshifts badly on a flat screen, you don't notice it on a torus? Obviously the torus helps with the hotspot, but I wasn't sure about colorshifting.
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post #195 of 276 Old 05-21-2005, 10:00 AM
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Hey Vince, post away. I'm sure everyone would be interested.

Walter
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post #196 of 276 Old 05-21-2005, 10:16 AM
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here it is. Like alot of things it's a series of compromises, but it's working out great for me.
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post #197 of 276 Old 05-22-2005, 08:27 PM
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James,
I think it is definitely brighter. If I ever get up to Terrys house, then I will take a sample and compare it to his Torus (if he will let me:D).

The mylar is basically a mirror. The coating I used over it is really flat. This is a first surface Light Fusion. For a cheap hard screen, you could mount the mylar to a flexible substrate and do a horizontal curve. All of the materials should be less than $75.

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post #198 of 276 Old 05-23-2005, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo
James,
I think it is definitely brighter. If I ever get up to Terrys house, then I will take a sample and compare it to his Torus (if he will let me:D).

The mylar is basically a mirror. The coating I used over it is really flat. This is a first surface Light Fusion. For a cheap hard screen, you could mount the mylar to a flexible substrate and do a horizontal curve. All of the materials should be less than $75.

Ericglo
From what I have read about the Light Fusion screens, they supposedly already have a wide viewing angle. Do you need a curve at all?

Do you think you are going to make a full size LF with the mylar? The Torus/PearlBrite has proven to work well, but it would be interesting to see what else works.

Does the mylar have any stretch to it? That would be necessary for a 2 way curve. Or is that why you are considering only a horizontal curve?

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post #199 of 276 Old 05-24-2005, 12:12 AM
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Mylar does easily stretch enough to make a torus. It is often used to make spherical mirros.
It is outrageously cheap, very very thin (thinner than cooking foil) and forms a perfect mirror when pulled out tight.
The problem for a torus with mylar is that you have to diffuse the reflection. You could do this by having it coated with a diffusion layer such as frosting paint/rear projection paint of a rear projection material. Paint will probably only work with a rigid torus as the paint would most likely crack when stretched. (Although I don't know if anyone has tried painting it and stretching it).
In theory the gain is massive as it is a true mirror, and you just dumb down the gain with a rearpro paint until it gives the image you want.

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post #200 of 276 Old 05-24-2005, 04:33 AM
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For me, this is not a problem. I use flexible coatings used on leather. A regular paint would microfracture when flexed and crack when stretched. Although I was thinking of a Hard Torus, this could be used on Soft Torus as well. Either way, I think if you painted it in its final position it should not cause a problem with regular paint. This is all speculation with regular paint since I have no experience with it. All you would need is a frosting layer like Dokworm said. The original LF uses Mmud which has pigment, this would not. That screen only has a gain of maybe 1.5, hence the viewing angle. This screen probably needs a different name since LF is named for MMs and CMRAs second surface mirror screen. Also on a Soft Torus, you would be limited to a max vertical of 60 inches. Of course, you could use rear pro material and increase your vertical. The problem is I don't know how well that would work and it gets expensive unless you can find a usable shower curtain.

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post #201 of 276 Old 05-26-2005, 09:33 AM
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I've got a few questions for you guys building torus screens. Are any using floor mounted projectors? Unlike most of you using CRT projectors, I am using a DIY LCD projector. It has a relatively short throw distance so it makes more sense to put it on the floor in front of the couch.

With the torus screen, would you have to tilt the screen a little if it is floor mounted? If so, I would want to have some flexibility in my design for a torus to allow for the tilt.

Has anyone had any success with screen material other than the Vutec Pearlbrite? I've had some success with a high gain paint that I'm developing but it warm-spots on a flat surface. I was thinking of painting my high gain paint onto BOC and using that for a torus screen. Any thoughts or ideas here?

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can provide.

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post #202 of 276 Old 05-26-2005, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Jason,

I did some tilting experimentation and found that it really didn't make much difference either way - so I left mine level..

Mine is on a stand and it is simple to tilt the screen either up or down by adding something underneath the front or back part of the legs..

I have only seen a Torus with the Pearlbrite but hope others experiment with higher gain DIY paints - Once you make the frame, then it's not a big deal to try other DIY materials which if they don't work out you can always revert back and buy the Pearlbrite..

Keep us posted on your results..

John
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post #203 of 276 Old 05-26-2005, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC Maniac

Mine is on a stand and it is simple to tilt the screen either up or down by adding something underneath the front or back part of the legs..
Or adjust the bolts that are there for that purpose... ;)

James

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post #204 of 276 Old 05-27-2005, 03:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semisentient
Or adjust the bolts that are there for that purpose... ;)

James
Too much work and would mean I'd have to buy a wrench..

:D

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post #205 of 276 Old 05-30-2005, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrometman
Has anyone had any success with screen material other than the Vutec Pearlbrite?

Don Stewart had a special high gain mix 2.6 white that worked wonders, however the movie theater Torusses use a maximum of 2.0 gain.

I do not like the idea of the translucent skin, it is a waste of light.

I am glad to see so many Torusses sprouting all over the place.

I would like to see a return to a more scientific method of desgining this torusses(ray tracing the room and audience to achieve optimum radi).
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post #206 of 276 Old 05-30-2005, 11:10 AM
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Hi, What is the name of this Stewart 2.6 gain screen, how does it match up to the studiotek 130 for color neutrality. Is it more expensive than the 130.

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post #207 of 276 Old 05-30-2005, 11:11 AM
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CINERAMAX, -Pjackso's spreadsheet does a good job of calculating proper radii. It's not necessary to go all the way to ray-tracing. He just asks how wide a viewing area you need and designs the radii to cover that viewing area with constant gain.

Walter, I don't think Don Stewart's super-gain screen is made any more.
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post #208 of 276 Old 05-30-2005, 11:28 AM
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I will take a look at the spreadsheet later.

Regarding the Stewart Material:

Don used to have it custom sprayed for simulation venues. I think it was a 2.6-2.8 pearlescent. With enough demand I am sure a custom run could be made. I also liked the circular plastic extrusion for the wood frame edges that Gerald Nash designed, much better fit and finish, also obtainable from Stewart if you ask.

According to TORUS inventor Gerald Nash (who sadly passed away in 2000) Radius is simply a percentage of throw distance. For crt projection in post production application with a single screen and a TD of 1.5 the figure he used was around .85 of TD. How does that compare to the spreadsheet? For 3 projector simulation .7 of TD, and for anamorphic 2.35 in movie theaters, .95 of TD. This application should be regenarated with digital projector,IMO.

In addition you seem to be doing everything (ray tracing, sightlines) based on the horizontal domain, Gerald Nash took the vertical domain as an integral part of the design.
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post #209 of 276 Old 05-30-2005, 06:39 PM
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All right, time to get busy.
I'm going to attempt a solid torus. This would allow endless experimentation with paint finishes and so on.
I'm making a small protoype this weekend as a proof of concept - if anyone wants to point out problems I may have, it will be well appreciated.

The plan is to make a torus out of a heavy material that will soak up resin quite happily.
I'm making a torus box, and fan, attaching the fabric, turning on the fan to get it the right shape (laying the whole assembly on the ground).
Then I am going to spray multiple light coats of fibreglass resin and keep building it up until the sucker is hard.
Once it is hard enough, I'm going to use carbon fibre sheets (I have some in the workshop doing nothing) and lay them on and resin them up.
Hopefully at the end of the process I will have a sandable, paintable hard screen. (Which could then be coated in releasing compond and used as a mould I guess to make others.)
I'm going to attempt it first on a 'scale model', about 3ft wide to see how it goes.

Any suggestions or wanings anyone wants to give before I go at it?

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post #210 of 276 Old 05-30-2005, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dokworm

Any suggestions or wanings anyone wants to give before I go at it?
OK, how about make sure your work area is well ventilated? ;)

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