Putting the Digital VS. CRT debate to an end for GOOD. - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 292 Old 04-18-2005, 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by darinp2
Do you have any suggestions for specific scenes I should look at? I have this recorded on one of my HD-TIVOs, but haven't moved it into my dark theater to take a look. I saw this one from DVD on Steve Smith's G70 and we were wondering if it was the kind of movie that would benefit much from HD.

--Darin


Darin,
Inside Sky Captains Office, outside and inside Dr Jennings lab. When Dex and Joe show Polly the Robots they have collected. The Uranium mine shortly before the Dynamite explosion.The black detail in Franky's uniform ,the way it fits to the curves of her lucious body ........ wait, forget that one.:D Darin, these are low APL tests.

The mobile landing strip details , Robots in NY cutting out the street,the very small cgi characters seen from a distance walking through the snow in Nepal, and textures of metal clothing skin etc all throughout the film for what HD can and DVD can't.

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post #272 of 292 Old 04-18-2005, 11:22 AM
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"Putting the Digital VS, CRT debate to an end for good." 14 pages and this insomniac sucker ain't gone to sleep yet. This is like a paper cut that won't heal. Until there is a way lop-sided shoot-out that favors a digital, this thread is here to stay. I would guess that it will happen sometime soon, it should.

Chip

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post #273 of 292 Old 04-18-2005, 01:09 PM
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darinp2
The solution to a really big screen and Qualia is Qualia NG and the fact that you found 6ftL bright enough in a dark room.

Qualia NG is the imaginary Qualia 004 with an added DI to make good use the inherent brightness potential of Qualia 004. With a big screen the black level will be pretty low and cr about 2000:1 to play with in the darkest state. Still the full brightness could be normal with 1000+ ANSI lumen.

PS
I wonder what your verdict will be on 30-50 ftL from a Panasonic dw7000?

Mattias Ohlson
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post #274 of 292 Old 04-18-2005, 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by Ohlson
darinp2
The solution to a really big screen and Qualia is Qualia NG and the fact that you found 6ftL bright enough in a dark room.
I agree that something like this would address this issue.
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I wonder what your verdict will be on 30-50 ftL from a Panasonic dw7000?
It will only be that for a very short time unless I can't improve it for me.

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post #275 of 292 Old 04-18-2005, 02:18 PM
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Dvd is 720x480 but how is the data used in a 2.35 anamorphic dvd?
I'm not so much worried about DVD, much more about HD.
HD usually is 1920x1080 (de-interlaced). That's 1.78:1, which can be resolved at 1920x1080. The 2.35:1 area of the tube face would be around 1920x818 as you say. And there is the problem. You only have 818p there, how do you stick 1080p from 1.78:1 into these 818p? It won't work. Given most HD stuff is more like 1400x1080 these days, the 1400 not is critical as the 1080p. But I guess with HD becoming more mainstream and cheaper 2K scanning, as well as 4K becoming more common, most stuff will indeed be full 1920x1080.


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No..you are not wrong here - no crt is able to resolve 1080 lines using only 55% of the vertical height on a 2.35 setup - this is why I went with 2:1 not 2.35..
I'd have to measure some stuff, as I'm not sure if I'd run into trouble with speaker placement then. I do anyway with a new screen. So I'll most likely have to replace speakers as well. My dealer called today and told me I can demo the speakers I had in mind on thursday.


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Unless you found the digital to be considerably better, the above is precisely why I would never spend $25K on a digital - the Qualia would look good on the 12' w but would you still be satisfied at 16'W?
I actually want to test this before I place my order. It's not like it's going to happen tomorrow. I still want to see the new Fujitsu which will probably take a while. Fujitsu keeps telling me they will start shipping "soon"... whatever "soon" means.


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The Qualia is the best fixed pixel device made, reds like I've never seen and sharp while smooth gorgeous , but honestly, if you gave me two I'd sell them. I'm not trying to sell you since you've made up your mind but , this is just my opinion of the reality of where we are at this crossroads.

Art, I wouldn't say I have made up my mind, at least not on the Qualia. The only thing I know for sure is that I won't do a double stack with CRT. Which brings me to another question. What would you do if a double stack wouldn't be an option for you?

Judging by the pure number of roughly 2000:1 CR on the Qualia, I was also expecting that I wouldn't like it. However, I have to say it looks more than 2000:1. I don't know why, I can't explain it. It's just what I think.


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Given less than $2500 USD to spend on display, source, HT finish and furnishings (and, of course, recycling surround proc and speakers from prior efforts) then middle-aged CRTs are really the only game in town.
I agree with that. For $2500,- I'd see if I could get my hands on a 7" or maybe 8" CRT. That would probably be the best choice. If I could choose between a 8" CRT and maybe a Sim2 HT300, then I think I'd go with a HT300.



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I'm not positive that you can do this with a multiple of 24Hz with the Qualia either. I know you can with an external processor doing the anamorphic stretching for an anamorphic lens, but just not sure if any processor outputs 1080/24psf and also does the stretching other than a PC. The Lumagen might, but I'm not sure if their 1080/24psf mode is really working.

Darin, the Qualia takes 1080p24sf and converts in internally, so the panels work with 1920x1080 at 48Hz. I already have a Lumagen VisionPro HDP as I was one of the early adoptors who got a beta unit to test. I haven't watched a dvd in a while so I'm not up to date on firmware. I'll look into this later this week and see what the unit can do with the latest firmware installed. For HD playback I'm using a PC.

Quote:
It sounds to me like you are going to need a fair amount of light to do what you want and the Qualia isn't going to support those huge screen sizes in high contrast mode unless you want to live with images that are pretty dim or can figure out some way to go with high gain.
I'm a CRT guys so I'm somewhat used to dimmer images. ;)
But really, right now I can't tell you if I will be happy with that. I'll try some stuff before I buy and I will measure some stuff on my CRT. I wouldn't be surprised if I get less light out of the CRT than I think. So if the Qualia can do the same brightness on a much bigger screen, I'll be happy. I'm not asking to get 20ftl or something like that. I'm satisfied with the current CRT levels that I have, but just on a bigger screen.
I'll probably pick up my calibration equipment this week, which I left at a client to get some numbers from the CRT.

About the Panasonic, the resolution is acutally the only thing that keeps me away from such a unit. I'd like 1920x1080. Now make the Panasonic (I think there's a 1400x1050 model, isn't there?) $10K to $15K and I'll think about it. But when I have to lay down the real big bucks, then I want 1920x1080.

- Stephan
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post #276 of 292 Old 04-18-2005, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stephan
Which brings me to another question. What would you do if a double stack wouldn't be an option for you?

I don't have an answer yet. Many on the forum know that this is a dilemma. All of the three panel devices hover around 2000:1. The single chip DLPs have much better CR and blacks but other short comings. For me at least I'm glad I don't have to make that choice right now because any would be a disappointment.

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post #277 of 292 Old 04-18-2005, 03:08 PM
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Stephan
I see it as pretty straight forward. You send 1920x818 letterboxed in 1080p with the normal 16:9 aspect ratio. It is another problem that the crt will not fully resolve the signal with so little tube face to work with. An additional thing to wait for if for 1080p come close to its full potential is the hdtv workflow and equipment is improved.
With a digital projector with an anamorpic lens motorized you can have optimal resolution with any aspect ratio, see other threads about it. A video processor manipulates so that 1920x1080 with all pixels used comes out right after the lens on the screen.

Many think that you can expect 1080p, 3-chip dlp probably at 4000:1 by the end of the year or early next year. I would have no idea of the cost.

The argument against a Qualia with a DI is that this approach would make it difficult to hit D65 stably from brightest white to the darkest black, something a videophile would demand. The light source needs to be modulated and not the light itself as we stand with todays known technology.

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post #278 of 292 Old 04-18-2005, 06:03 PM
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I want to say a couple of things for completeness. If I had never known about how a well set up LC 9" CRT looks I know I'd be pleased with a Qualia. I know that it can produce a certain level of sharpness that my stack can not. The problem is I saw this same difference with the Runco 5000ci compared to my old Runco 980us and would never have traded the 980s for the 5000ci. ( both approximately the same resolution).

I think if I had to go one way right now (say there was no such thing as what I have) I'd get a 1080x2048 three chip DLP and see if I could entice a sharp guy here to modify it to get the best CR that can be achieved.This would have the light to spare that could be sacrificed for more CR.

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post #279 of 292 Old 04-20-2005, 11:19 AM
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Mattias,

that was my point :)
Of course I can use the CRT with a 2.35:1 screen, but it won't resolve what I throw at it anymore. I'd like a projector that would actually resolve 1920x1080 on a 2.35:1 screen. It's the same reason why I would pick a Qualia over a Panasonic 3-chip any day unless the Panasonic would be a real bargain.

No doubt we'll see a new DLP chip this year. But this will be 960x1080, no real 1920x1080 chip.
I'll give the manufacturers a couple of years to get the wobulation perfect. It's pretty much like the Rainbow, which has just now come to a level where it is acceptable to me. I'm getting a headache from it and my eyes will start to hurt.

What I doubt is that we'll see 3-chip units with a CR of 4000:1 unless they use DI.


My only chance would be a 2048x1080 3-chip. Problem with these is, they're very expensive and have a CR that usually is somewhere between 1000:1 and 1500:1.

Anyway, I'll have to stick to the CRT until I've seen the D711. Will make my decision then.

- Stephan
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post #280 of 292 Old 04-20-2005, 11:50 AM
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I thought a full blown 1080 signal will result into a 1.78:1 image even when the actual image is 2.35:1. Now given that a 9" CRt should resolve that.

It is all about quality...that is the picture

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post #281 of 292 Old 04-20-2005, 12:17 PM
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I havnt kept up with this thread but Ill chime in. I recently went and looked at a lcd projector (not sure what brand since they all look alike to me) and to be honest it wasnt at all bad. It was in a dedicated room and projecting onto a firehawk I believe. I did laugh when the sales guy told me the price of the setup was around 7 grand.

I do feel Im in a good postition right now since I got my xg a few years back at a great price and I am in the process of getting a couple of the tubes replaced. I figure by the time I run it into the ground (5-6 years) I will be able to pick up a really nice digtal for under a grand and not really be too concerned with the hassle of reselling it.

Fernando
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post #282 of 292 Old 04-20-2005, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stephan
Mattias,

that was my point :)
Of course I can use the CRT with a 2.35:1 screen, but it won't resolve what I throw at it anymore. I'd like a projector that would actually resolve 1920x1080 on a 2.35:1 screen.
I'm not sure about your use of "resolve" here. There is no 1920x1080 2.35:1 material to resolve. All you need to resolve that is about 1920x817 and if a projector can resolve 1920x1080 material on a 16:9 screen then it can resolve 1920x817 on a 2.35:1 screen. What I was referring to earlier was using an anamorphic lens, which may make things better, but in a sense you are over-resolving (if that would even be a term) by upscaling 1920x817 2.35:1 material to 1920x1080 in a 2.35:1 space (with the lens do the conversion from 16:9 to 2.35:1). I know, it gets a little more complicated because our sources are points and space and it can be argued that to really resolve 1920x1080 material ideally you would want 3840x2160, but that is another discussion.

--Darin

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post #283 of 292 Old 04-20-2005, 01:49 PM
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Darin,

talking CRT now, not digital. So I don't have the option of lenses or anything.

The tube face is 4:3, but that's not something you want to use anyway. So you're using a 16:9 area of the face with a 1.78:1 screen. Within this 1.78:1 area you can resolve 1920x1080. When I say resolve now, then I mean display the amount of "pixels", so this has nothing to do with the 3840x2160 discussion.

Now let's say I switch to a 2.35:1 screen. Then I have to lower the image height on the tube face and I'll end up with a 2.35:1 area on the tubeface. Within this 2.35:1 area I can resolve 1920x817, as you say. That works fine for a 2.35:1 movie.

Now, what happens when I watch a 1.78:1 movie? This movie will be 1920x1080 and not 1920x817 like a 2.35:1 movie. I can't just go back to a 1.78:1 area on the tube, because I have a 2.35:1 screen now. Part of the image would be outside the screen. As there is no zoom function or anamorphic lens for a CRT my only choice would be to put the 1.78:1 image (which is 1920x1080) into the 2.35:1 area (which is 1920x817) of the tube.

That's my point, you can't put a 1.78:1 movie with 1920x1080 into the 2.35:1 area with 1920x817 "resolution". But that is the only choice with a 2.35:1 constant height screen. So in the end, I'll lose resolution for a 1.78:1 movie. With a digital, I don't have this problem. I'd rather scale 1920x817 to 1920x1080 and correct it with an anamorphic lens to end up with 2.35:1 again than going the other way. For 1.78:1 movies on a digital, I could just remove the lens. I plan to look into an ISCOIII which has the option of being motorized.

- Stephan
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post #284 of 292 Old 04-20-2005, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stephan
Now, what happens when I watch a 1.78:1 movie? This movie will be 1920x1080 and not 1920x817 like a 2.35:1 movie.
You're right. I just wasn't thinking.

--Darin

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post #285 of 292 Old 04-20-2005, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Art Sonneborn
I want to say a couple of things for completeness. If I had never known about how a well set up LC 9" CRT looks I know I'd be pleased with a Qualia. I know that it can produce a certain level of sharpness that my stack can not. The problem is I saw this same difference with the Runco 5000ci compared to my old Runco 980us and would never have traded the 980s for the 5000ci. ( both approximately the same resolution).

I think if I had to go one way right now (say there was no such thing as what I have) I'd get a 1080x2048 three chip DLP and see if I could entice a sharp guy here to modify it to get the best CR that can be achieved.This would have the light to spare that could be sacrificed for more CR.

Art
I think that the D'ILA is better and more promising than DLP. If you were buying right now, I think you would be VERY happy with this: http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/...d2k/index.html if properly setup.

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post #286 of 292 Old 04-20-2005, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by techman707
I think that the D'ILA is better and more promising than DLP. If you were buying right now, I think you would be VERY happy with this: http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/...d2k/index.html if properly setup.
Have you seen one of these? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts if you have. William Phelps has just completed some work where he sets a camera up pointed at the screen and adjusts the uniformity (automatically I believe) based on the images. Sounds like a pretty cool feature for calibration to make these even better.

I think the biggest issue Art would have with these is the close to 2400:1 on/off CR and he might be pushing it for lumens for his screen size and type (microperf requirement). I invited Art over to see my HD2K on a 10' wide High Power, but the drive was a little too far. :)

--Darin

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post #287 of 292 Old 04-20-2005, 03:06 PM
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Has anyone heard anything new from JVC on an update for the HD2K?

I would have bought it when it came out, but it can't do 48Hz. I remember someone from JVC said they have a solution for 48Hz, but I'm still waiting. The projector can be as good as it gets, if it won't do 48Hz I won't buy it. :(

- Stephan
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post #288 of 292 Old 04-20-2005, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2
Have you seen one of these? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts if you have. William Phelps has just completed some work where he sets a camera up pointed at the screen and adjusts the uniformity (automatically I believe) based on the images. Sounds like a pretty cool feature for calibration to make these even better.

I think the biggest issue Art would have with these is the close to 2400:1 on/off CR and he might be pushing it for lumens for his screen size and type (microperf requirement). I invited Art over to see my HD2K on a 10' wide High Power, but the drive was a little too far. :)

--Darin
The one thing that there's NO shortage of is light output (just the cost of that output:D).

I use the JVC software on G15's and there's practically NOTHING that can't be adjusted, even the board voltages are adjusted with the software. However, it takes a lot of getting used to. I think that it's the D'ILA that will be the replacement for CRT when the prices finally come down, unless some new technology is introduced in between.

P.S. I'd like to discuss the HD2K with you, but I don't have the time right now.

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post #289 of 292 Old 01-07-2006, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Clarence
And here's Terry's KB2 scene with hi/mid/shadow amplified 100%

http://img85.exs.cx/img85/1738/image182pu.gif

If I get really bored, I'll capture about 30 frames from KB2, amplify them, then build an animated GIF so we can watch the amplified hidden detail in motion.

But first, back to my HT lights... zaaaaappppp...
KB2 was on in HD and in 2.35 OAR last night. :cool:

WOW!!!! It looks sweet! :D

I fast forward to the "buried alive" scene and the detail above is there in the piutch black from my G90, with no gamma tricks! I love this thing. Thanks again for the setup Terry! :)
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post #290 of 292 Old 01-07-2006, 08:49 AM
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That shot does a great job of making my monitor look dirty.

=B

Ps. Clarence, If you don't mind.. What are you thought about your G90's future? Are you thinking OEM new down the road, re-builds, or Replace pj?
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post #291 of 292 Old 01-07-2006, 09:19 AM
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I'll reassess my options as they develop. My default plan is to continue enjoying the heck out of this sucky dinosaur for another 3 years or so, keeping my eyes open for new tube(s) on my terms (which, if anyone hasn't figured out by now, my terms are usually pretty good).

If manufacturers can continue to beat their previous bulb-burners at 1/3rd the cost every year, I'm hoping that the black levels and CR will continue to improve. Digitals should be much better in 3 years... if I can get less hassle for connecting the next generation of HD players, 1080p@72 with truer black levels, hopefully the price point comes down to <$3500 with bulbs that have half lives of ~3500 hours and cost <$350 to replace (or I'd even prefer to see 1000 hour half-life bulbs that cost $100), then I have no objection to considering a new projector ~2009.

But until then, I don't plan on spending 2x-5x more money to get a lesser picture.
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post #292 of 292 Old 01-07-2006, 11:56 AM
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I would recommend the CSamp http://www.netreach.net/~gavin/gavsfreeware/csamp.htm program. A small, great program, that you can measure the RGB valued on any picture you have. So you can see if it's 16 or above.


/Mattias

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