Putting the Digital VS. CRT debate to an end for GOOD. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2
Here are a couple of specs people might notice:

First Ship: Aug 2000
Last Ship: May 2003

I'm not saying the G15 is a bad machine, but this is a little bit like comparing to a Pentium 3 when it comes to digitals.
Sheesh Darin. Every time something like this is posted, your response is:
1) The digital wasn't a good enough digital.
2) You can actually purchase the digital for less than you bought it for, so it was not a fair comparison.

I'm not sure what your motivation for trying to prove digitals are so good. Are you:
1) Trying to make sure that no one ever makes the incredible mistake of buying a CRT again?
2) Trying to get a buch of suckers to invest in digital technology to fund the development of it so it will finally get to the maturity level that it has decent performance and price?

The simple fact remains, if you take $3500 out into the marketplace to buy a PJ, set them up and properly calibrate them, then put your bottom within 1.5x the screen width and throw in a film-based source, 99 out of 100 objective people are going to pick the CRT every time. This has happened at my house with InFocus DLP PJs, Sony LCD PJs, etc. As the InFocus 4805 owner put it, "I can't have that good of a picture because my wife wouldn't let me hang a CRT in the family room."

Dave
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post #92 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 10:41 AM
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A primary issue is HEAT. ALL lamp based projectors run HOT, with the
picture elements running at very high relative temperatures, and heat is the
ultimate enemy. It destroys and degrades everything. Note how much
attention is given to cooling a digital projector. (And most CRT projectors, too.)

Optical coating degrade. Glues embrittle or soften and start to sag. I've seen
LCD projectors where the prisms in the core assembly had drifted due to
heating, resulting in a non-correctable shift of the red LCD assembly on the
prism asembly, and it only had 1600 hours total time on the meter.

CRT phosphors run relatively cool in comparison. Even after a long evening
watching movies, the faces of the CRTs on an 8000 or 8500 are hardly warm.

The only part of a CRT projector that even approaches the running temperature
of the optical core of an LCD or DLP projector is the electron gun assembly. All the rest is almost ice cold in comparison.

Digital projectors will start lasting longer when they can REALLY figure out
a way to keep the optical engine running COOL. Heatless light sources,
and so on.

CJ
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post #93 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Person99
Sheesh Darin. Every time something like this is posted, your response is:
1) The digital wasn't a good enough digital.
2) You can actually purchase the digital for less than you bought it for, so it was not a fair comparison.
I'm not even sure what your point is with #2. What does "less than you bought it for" mean here? When people make incorrect statements about pricing (as they often do by assuming MSRP) then I do correct it. If I went out and paid $10k for a Sony D50 I would expect people here to point out that this is not representative of pricing. As far as #1, if you want to make a statement about digitals in general then using some 4 1/2 year old digital doesn't do a very good job of it. It seems that some people here like to grab a projector that is bad at one thing and then claim that all digitals must be the same. This is simply incorrect, as it would be if I claimed that all CRTs have these bad halos around bright objects because some non-LC CRT does.
Quote:

The simple fact remains, if you take $3500 out into the marketplace to buy a PJ, set them up and properly calibrate them, then put your bottom within 1.5x the screen width and throw in a film-based source, 99 out of 100 objective people are going to pick the CRT every time. This has happened at my house with InFocus DLP PJs, Sony LCD PJs, etc. As the InFocus 4805 owner put it, "I can't have that good of a picture because my wife wouldn't let me hang a CRT in the family room."
It takes an IQ of about 20 to figure out that at the same price the CRT better win that comparison just based on your last comment. You make it sound like it should be news to people that convenience costs money.

--Darin

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post #94 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 11:00 AM
 
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Darin: I am almost positive Terry was talking SMPTE C primaries.

edit: lysdlexia.
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post #95 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2
I'm not even sure what your point is with #2. What does "less than you bought it for" mean here? When people make incorrect statements about pricing (as they often do by assuming MSRP) then I do correct it.
A substantial number of consumers do go out to their local retailer (home theater specialty or electronics store) and pay MSRP. In fact, I would guess that the mean price paid is very close to MSRP. Few people get a Sharp 1100 from Japan at bargain basement prices.

Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2
It takes an IQ of about 20 to figure out that at the same price the CRT better win that comparison just based on your last comment.
And that is the point of just about everyone of these posts that you feel compelled to attempt to find flaws in.

To put it simply: dollar for dollar, you get a better PQ with CRT (period). Why are we discussing this?
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post #96 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Person99
A substantial number of consumers do go out to their local retailer (home theater specialty or electronics store) and pay MSRP. In fact, I would guess that the mean price paid is very close to MSRP. Few people get a Sharp 1100 from Japan at bargain basement prices.
So, why is it that you want to take that tact for the digital price and not use the same kind of retail prices for the CRT? Or when you said $3500 did you mean going to a retail shop, picking up a CRT and taking it home? It seems to me that you want to use a non-level playing field by using a different method for people to acquire a CRT. I don't believe that mean price paid by people here for either one is close to MSRP (unless you are talking the low margin digital units at the bottom). Especially when people can get many of these from the forum sponsor for much less than MSRP.
Quote:

And that is the point of just about everyone of these posts that you feel compelled to attempt to find flaws in.
No. That is not the point. The point is almost always that CRTs have better images and this is just used as a device to make that point. When a person not even looking at the images should be able to figure out this price/performance thing just by knowing ease of setup, size, etc.
Quote:

To put it simply: dollar for dollar, you get a better PQ with CRT (period). Why are we discussing this?
Because people want to use this as a claim of superiority of CRT when it really just points out the inferiority in other areas. In other words, it does not address the "has digital caught up" question because if a digital matched the CRT image-for-image then dollar-for-dollar the CRT would still have better price/performance if only the images were counted. The reason is that the CRT price would adjust to make this so as we have covered.

--Darin

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post #97 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 11:15 AM
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Some people just don't want to believe it. They want to believe that newfangled and digital is always better, even though by its very definition, digital is always an approximation of analog with limited resolution.
They want to believe that slick packaging and even slicker ad campaigns
prove superiority...so they buy Bose speakers. (Pardon me while I puke up a lung here...) They buy the cute little newfangled digital projector with the bright
light and the short pedigree rather than the big, bulky CRT projector that
represents seventy years of continuous development of its core technologies.

CJ
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post #98 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 11:16 AM
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Darin,
Back to the color issue. It was stated by Alan and others that film has better colors, which I assume means better or greater than the HD standard. According to the Extremetech article, the author said it was not necessary to go beyond HD. If you have accurate HD colors on your projector, then I guess you won't have the same color gamut as film. What is better? I am confused. I know this would probably be a better question for the other thread, but I thought you might have some insight.

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post #99 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ericglo
Back to the color issue. It was stated by Alan and others that film has better colors, which I assume means better or greater than the HD standard. According to the Extremetech article, the author said it was not necessary to go beyond HD. If you have accurate HD colors on your projector, then I guess you won't have the same color gamut as film. What is better? I am confused. I know this would probably be a better question for the other thread, but I thought you might have some insight.
I haven't personally been taken by film colors that I've seen, but maybe it is just the presentations. I'm not sure of everything that film is capable of as far as colors, but I do know that the specs for digital cinema do have a wider pallete than even HD. So, I would say that HD is compromised somewhat compared to what is and will be available in commercial cinemas, but SD is compromised even more. It also looks like we are going to be stuck with 4:2:0 (half the chroma information as luma information) for HD-DVD and BluRay also. With the higher pixel count this still means more color pixels in the same proprortion as 1080p vs 480p compared to DVD though. Basically 540p color vs 240p color.

--Darin

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post #100 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 11:36 AM
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No. That is not the point. The point is almost always that CRTs have better images and this is just used as a device to make that point. When a person not even looking at the images should be able to figure out this price/performance thing just by knowing ease of setup, size, etc.


You admit that the PQ of CRT projection is superior. Which is true, of course.


Now address the functional intent of a projector: It is to project images.

Whatever does THAT task best, IS the superior product. Period. If the
projector is the size of a grand piano and weighs three tons but still delivers
the best picture available, it's STILL the winner.

The "convenience factors" of smaller, lighter, and simpler to operate
projectors do NOT make them superior to the larger machine that delivers
superior performance.

That'd be like saying that you just bought yourself an airplane and it's
fast, it's beautiful, it's easy to operate, it folds up and stores in the smallest
garage, and it's cheap to own...but it doesn't fly very good.

If it doesn't do its intended job particularly well, it can have all the cool features and that simply won't make up for it.

Those who have been buying digital projectors in the past few years have
all been compromising on the one performance aspect that is the heart and
soul of what a projector is about, and that's picture quality.

If the picture is not great, why even bother to buy a projector? That would
make no sense to me.

CJ
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post #101 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 11:44 AM
 
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Those who have been buying digital projectors in the past few years have
all been compromising on the one performance aspect that is the heart and
soul of what a projector is about, and that's picture quality.
I will disagree with you here. There is one aspect of PQ that is missing, and that's true black, just on/off CR. We all agree on this. CRTs have problems too, does that mean that CRT users have equally been compromising on the one performance aspect that is the heart and soul of what a projector is about, and that's picture quality?

Each is a different set of tradeoffs, and in my opinion, I still prefer the CRT set of tradeoffs. But I don't think you could come close to saying that a 1080pLCOS is not a projector about picture quality. I think you're definitely wrong here.

Quote:
If the picture is not great, why even bother to buy a CRT projector? That would
make no sense to me.
fixed.
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post #102 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by cmjohnson
You admit that the PQ of CRT projection is superior. Which is true, of course.
I don't think I said that. For absolute PQ I would say that those who have gotten used to G90 performance would find some things lacking in the Qualia, but if they had owned a Qualia for a while first and were shown a G90 I think they would find some things lacking in the G90. I think the fact that the G90 came first means that many more people are entrenched that direction. And it depends on what you are looking at. I would take the Qualia for PQ for the Superbowl myself. But for "AVP: Alien vs Predator" I would take a CRT or a much higher on/off CR digital over the Qualia.

And PQ is somewhat subjective. I prefer dimmer images much of the time myself, but that doesn't mean that I ignore that there are people out there who just like really bright images. For those people a CRT may work on a Torus screen, but in general I think many of these people just wouldn't be happy with most CRT levels and the screen sizes they would want. Art had to get 2 G90s to get the lumens he wanted and I think he likes dimmer images in general.

I'm also somewhat sensitive to scanlines, which is one thing I was disappointed in at the DTS demo at CES.

I will say (and it should be obvious) that if a person had a fixed amount to spend like $7k, $5k, or $3k that if they are willing to do the work of getting a CRT into their house and live with it and deal with any limitations (like more need for light control) then they will get PQ advantages (applying to film with the lights out more than video IMO). That also includes not overspending by going to some high priced retailer and paying what they want for their CRTs when there are people selling them for good prices with warranties.

When HD-DVD and BluRay get here I think that just about any really nice setup will include one of those. So, people need to consider what it might cost to get those to play correctly and the ramifications of these new formats.

And in my situation I can use a digital in multiple places. So, the price/performance thing is different than most because I would have to have multiple CRTs to go against one digital that can move to where I want it (big group theater in my living room, smaller black velvet HT dedicated room, or watching from bed in my bedroom).

Plus, I don't have to live with the limitations of a stock unit as I can tune some of these for my specific conditions and preferences.

--Darin

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post #103 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 12:00 PM
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Darin,

I don't care which standard you are calibrating to the G90 isn't even close on the G. As it works out I just happen to have a 9500 w/ new tubes in my shop that I was setting the grey scale in which has the "correct" G CElement on it and it measured 0.3017 0.5957
I also have a G90 here that has a slightly worn tube which will effect the primary color a bit, but this is pretty accurate with what I have measured in the past w/ new tubes. 0.3591 0.5718
As you can see it isn't even close to the standards that you gave nor the SMPTE C Primaries that Chris mentioned.
There is also NO way that I know of to change the primary colors electronically. The secondary colors yes, but primaries no. Changing the primaries requires filtering. This can come in the form of colored glycol for nonLC projectors, color filtered lens's or colored CElements for LC projectors.
The G90 "fix" is pretty easy. Simply change the G CElement.
Some of the other projectors which are off on the red (way off on the MEC tube varieties) and greens (like the unfiltered Barco and Marquee) can be corrected with proper colorfiltered lens's or tinted Glycol. Some use Roscoe filter paper on these to correct the colors but personally I don't think that is a valid approach because you loose some focus.

Chris,
Did you have a look at the desktop test patterns that were on that other thread yet? Very interesting in conjunction with what I was emailing you about last week.

Darin, I want to see you haul that Qualia into bed with ya. That's amore.....lol

Terry

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post #104 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
>>> Putting the Digital VS. CRT debate to an end for GOOD. <<<
Just think. This is a historical thread. The debate has now ended forever.
One day we'll all be able to tell our grandchildren that it was finally
settled for good, right here, right now. And we were witness to it.
I think we should all go out and get drunk to celebrate.
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post #105 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chuchuf
There is also NO way that I know of to change the primary colors electronically. The secondary colors yes, but primaries no. Changing the primaries requires filtering.
Primaries on the screen can be brought in electronically by adding small amounts of one of the other two primaries. They can't be pushed out, but they can be brought in, just as the Yamaha does. There probably aren't any tools to do if for CRTs, but that is just because nobody has created any.

The key here as you may have noticed is primaries from the projector as a whole as there is nothing wrong with turning on the other tubes when the material calls for pure red if that gives the correct value.
Quote:

Darin, I want to see you haul that Qualia into bed with ya. That's amore.....lol
Good point. That is something I consider a negative with the Qualia and was considering something more like my 11k.

--Darin

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post #106 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2
What do you mean by correct and what you are comparing to? As we've pretty much covered, the primaries are speced differently for SD than HD.
Darin,

What is your opinion of this:

An even bigger wrinkle is that according to a wide variety of sources, the vast majority of SD and HD is digitally mastered on Sony CRT studio monitors which use SMPTE C primaries. (In colorspace, the SMPTE C primaries are located roughly between the SD and HD primaries.) The technician encodes the video based on what he sees on this monitor.

It would seem that to see exactly the same thing, a videophile would want his display device to use the same primaries as the mastering device, rather than the SD or HD primaries. Following the standards for the SD and HD primaries in your display device becomes a moot point if they are not followed in the studio.

I came across this info initially from a post by Guy Kuo.

Greg Rogers appears to view this differently. If he reads this post, perhaps he would comment further.

Glenn
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post #107 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by glenned
What is your opinion of this:

An even bigger wrinkle is that according to a wide variety of sources, the vast majority of SD and HD is digitally mastered on Sony CRT studio monitors which use SMPTE C primaries. (In colorspace, the SMPTE C primaries are located roughly between the SD and HD primaries.) The technician encodes the video based on what he sees on this monitor.

It would seem that to see exactly the same thing, a videophile would want his display device to use the same primaries as the mastering device, rather than the SD or HD primaries. Following the standards for the SD and HD primaries in your display device becomes a moot point if they are not followed in the studio.

I came across this info initially from a post by Guy Kuo.

Greg Rogers appears to view this differently. If he reads this post, perhaps he would comment further.
Greg mentioned in his Yamaha DPX-1100 that one of the shows (I believe it was "Las Vegas") is done with SD primaries even though it is an HD show, so he just switched the projector to use the SD colorspace. The stuff you mentioned is important and I hope that with HD-DVD and BluRay mastering they are using HD units and mastering to that space. We talked about this a little before and dokworm mentioned that his group had obtained units with HD primaries in the last 6 months or so. He also thought that the units in the trucks for HD camera things (like the Superbowl) were probably HD units.

Unfortunately, with all that we will get with HD-DVD and BluRay there are going to be some hickups. That is all the more reason that I would like a unit with adjustable primaries that go far enough out for HD. Then we could see the stuff that is mastered correctly as it should be seen and adjust for those things that aren't.

--Darin

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post #108 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 12:48 PM
 
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Quote:
An even bigger wrinkle is that according to a wide variety of sources, the vast majority of SD and HD is digitally mastered on Sony CRT studio monitors which use SMPTE C primaries. (In colorspace, the SMPTE C primaries are located roughly between the SD and HD primaries.)
First, I believe we are throwing around some loose terms here. When we say HD primaries, we mean ITU 709 specs which defines the matrix coefficients for YCbCr, and ALSO defines primary chromaticities. When we say "SD" I take it to mean a combination of ITU 601 specs which *only* defines the matrix coefficients, but is silent on primary chromaticities, and assumes SMPTE C primaries. I am not aware of a "third" SD number that isn't SMPTE C, nor 709 primaries, perhaps I am missing that? That is my understanding, anyway.

Quote:
Chris,
Did you have a look at the desktop test patterns that were on that other thread yet? Very interesting in conjunction with what I was emailing you about last week.
Terry: no I switched recently between my 8500 and my G808, and I haven't fully setup my 808 as I haven't had time. I will be very busy until next week, so hopefully then I'll get the theater running again. I haven't examined the newest TT update either, with the improved renderless mode, I just was using the original briefly which some criticized as being soft. When I get back around to my own theater, I'll give you a heads up as to what I'm seeing.
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post #109 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chuchuf
Greg,
I have measured the primary colors on the Sony G90 many times and agree that the G needs to be fixed as it does't hit it's mark as a primary color. But the fix is very easy. <snip>

Red on a G90 hit's it mark as a primary color as does Blue. <snip>

Terry
I'm aware that CRT projector primary colors (and the G90 in particular) can be modified by various physical means, but thanks for listing some of the details. The CRT primaries can also be modified by electronic means, but only within the native color triangle of the projector (i.e. you can't push a color outside the native color triangle). I was comparing the "stock" G90 to a "stock" DPX-1200.

We could also electronically adjust the primaries on other fixed-pixel projectors, so there are other "stock" fixed-pixel projectors with primaries outside the Rec 709 and Rec 601 color triangles that could have nearly perfect color primaries (and be switchable between Rec 709 and Rec 601 primaries) if we applied electronic correction that isn't included in those projectors.

I don't agree about the red primary on the G90, at least not on the one that I measured way back in 1999 (its hard to believe its been that long since I reviewed the G90!).

Greg Rogers
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post #110 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by glenned
Darin,

What is your opinion of this:

An even bigger wrinkle is that according to a wide variety of sources, the vast majority of SD and HD is digitally mastered on Sony CRT studio monitors which use SMPTE C primaries. (In colorspace, the SMPTE C primaries are located roughly between the SD and HD primaries.) The technician encodes the video based on what he sees on this monitor.

It would seem that to see exactly the same thing, a videophile would want his display device to use the same primaries as the mastering device, rather than the SD or HD primaries. Following the standards for the SD and HD primaries in your display device becomes a moot point if they are not followed in the studio.

I came across this info initially from a post by Guy Kuo.

Greg Rogers appears to view this differently. If he reads this post, perhaps he would comment further.

Glenn
Actually I've been writing about this for quite a while (I don't know why you thought I view this differently?) I've pointed out in several reviews (including the DPX-1100 and DPX-1200) that one of the advantages of electronic color management systems is the ability to change the colorimetry from the SMPTE-C (SD) to Rec 709 (HD) standards for this reason.

Also, note that the so-called SMPTE-C primaries (defined in SMPTE 170M) are the correct SD (standard definition) primaries. (The original NTSC primaries, defined in 1953 are much different.) As ChrisWiggles correctly points out in another post, the SD primaries are actually not specified in Rec 601 (which is a digital signal standard), but are adopted for Rec 601 use from the analog SMPTE 170M signal standard.

Here's just a snippet from my DPX-1200 review (WSR Issue #95) that you may not have read yet,

"Unfortunately, the professional CRT monitors used for creating high-definition video still have Rec. 601 (SMPTE-C) primary colors. When those monitors are not color corrected the DPX-1200 should be set to the Rec. 601 primaries to most accurately duplicate the colors seen on the professional monitors, even when viewing high-definition video. For that reason I set the WRGB mode to the Rec. 601 primary colors for high-definition formats. I could then switch from WRGB to WRGBYCM to quickly try both colorimetry standards when viewing high-definition sources."

Later I mentioned it again,

"As I mentioned earlier, many of the professional CRT monitors used for HDTV production still have SMPTE-C (Rec. 601) primaries with no electronic color correction, so the best HDTV color accuracy is often obtained by using the Rec. 601 primary colors. "


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post #111 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 02:17 PM
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I had also measured the R primaries on the G90 when I did the G earlier and they came in at 0.6105 0.3175 which are a bit off but very close to the point they should be.
I wonder if because the G is off, it was effecting the skin tones that you observed? This change should change the D65 characteristics pretty dramatically which when recalibrated could offset what you saw?
That is what I meant on not being able to move the primaries beyond their native triangle electronically. And the G in the case of the G90 needs to move outside the triangle.

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post #112 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 02:50 PM
 
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Oh gee, I forgot to cover the mastering monitors primaries in my earlier post!

I don't really know what the mastering studios are doing, but Stacey Spears some time ago seemed to indicate as Greg does that most are still using the same monitors, but with time we'll likely see changes in the mastering studios as they begin to master with 709 primaries on their new displays. We should all be careful here to note that we are talking about primary chromaticities, and *NOT* the matrix coefficients. So for instance, say a studio that doesn't have new monitros, but they are mastering HD material, they are still looking at SMTPE C phosphors, rather than 709 phosphors. However, they should still correctly be using the 709 matrix coefficients to move from RGB to YCbCr. So to see what they see, you should be using the HD 709 decoding, but SMPTE C (SD) phosphors. This is confusing, so novices beware.

Anyway, I don't know if I'll be able to find the thread, but in a recent post, someone affiliated with some undisclosed mastering studio said that they indeed have changed monitors to ones with 709 phosphors, and thought that many other studios were doing the same. I have no idea what is going on further up the chain, but it would be interesting to know.
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post #113 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 03:43 PM
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Now this discussion is getting interesting....
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post #114 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
Anyway, I don't know if I'll be able to find the thread, but in a recent post, someone affiliated with some undisclosed mastering studio said that they indeed have changed monitors to ones with 709 phosphors, and thought that many other studios were doing the same. I have no idea what is going on further up the chain, but it would be interesting to know.
You might be thinking of dokworm that I mentioned earlier. He is down under and I'm not sure how fast things are moving in the US or Japan. It would seem that the move to HD-DVD and BluRay would give them new incentive.

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post #115 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobertWood
Just think. This is a historical thread. The debate has now ended forever.
One day we'll all be able to tell our grandchildren that it was finally
settled for good, right here, right now. And we were witness to it.
I think we should all go out and get drunk to celebrate.
And your drink of choice will be?? :D

I guess I stirred things up a bit, but this IS MY OPINION, and in my opinion and in my eyes, the debate is over. I've been around here for a couple of years now and have spent WAY too much money and time between digital and CRT to always come to the same conclusion. Right now, CRT is the best.

I like digital as well (especially this G15 that I have) and BOTH will serve the intended purpose in my home......

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post #116 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 04:08 PM
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And as mentioned earlier, maybe a lot of the sports broadcasts have them in their trucks.

So for the CRT guys, is there a way to have modify the projectors for the HD colors? According to the Extremetech article, the green is quite close to SMPTE C. So maybe a correction for red and blue is all that is necessary. Here is the link http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1736948,00.asp

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post #117 of 292 Old 03-16-2005, 04:10 PM
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Cliff,
It is funny how everything is mastered on a CRT monitor.:D

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post #118 of 292 Old 03-17-2005, 10:23 AM
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cmjohnson - You do the math for my three new tubes (I did). $795.00 U.S, each from VDC plus $100.00 extra for the corrected red = $2,500.00 U.S. = approximately $3,200.00 Canadian + shipping (by me to VDC) = $150.00 Canadian + cost of taxes at border and shipping back to me = $600.00 (Canadian) + instalation cost of about $250.00 Canadian = $4,200.00 Canadian!!

Cost of a new bulb in Canadian funds plus taxes, shipping and instalation by me (two minutes) = $700.00 (I purchased a spare for my HT1000 and tried it out to make sure it works). The bulb is good for 3000 hours, so let's say 2,000 for the sake of argument. I'll get 3 years of use out of one lamp so I need 3 and 1/3 lamps = $2,400.00. In the U.S. these lamps would cost $400.00 or about $1,350.00 for 10 years of use and if you push them maybe 10,000 hours for several more years of use.

I was wrong!! More like a difference of $1,800.00 for me between new lamps and brand NEW tubes (not rebuilt). It's a MYTH here on the CRT forum that NEW tubes are cheaper than lamps. I know because I have actually lived it.

Some may be able to stretch CRT tubes to well beyond 10,000 hours, however, the same can be done with lamps. Some of the newer lamps have claims of 6,000 to 8,000 hours which would bring costs down significantly (even if you only got 4,000 hours out of one of these).

Cheers,


Grant
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post #119 of 292 Old 03-17-2005, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deja Vu


I was wrong!! More like a difference of $1,800.00 for me between new lamps and brand NEW tubes (not rebuilt). It's a MYTH here on the CRT forum that NEW tubes are cheaper than lamps. I know because I have actually lived it.

Though I do think that the price difference between CRT and digital is often overstated (particularly when labor is included) and in your case it does appear that a digtial is cheaper however it is a streach to say it is a myth. For a start I live in the U.S. and I don't pay Canadian customs fees and taxes, also many folks are happy with rebuilds which reduces costs furhter.
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post #120 of 292 Old 03-17-2005, 11:44 AM
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.

Quote "I was wrong!! More like a difference of $1,800.00 for me between new lamps and brand NEW tubes (not rebuilt). It's a MYTH here on the CRT forum that NEW tubes are cheaper than lamps. I know because I have actually lived it."




as a fellow canuckelhead you should checkout what curt has to offer instead of buying across the line when the freakin borders"fees" are so extortionary, its for this simple reason i try to purchase in canada or buy from individuals in the states rather than companys i,m tired of taking it up the tailpipe from the theives that man the border. whatever happened to free trade?





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