Putting the Digital VS. CRT debate to an end for GOOD. - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2
I don't think I owe you an apology.
I never asked for or expected an apology. Nor did I expect inappropriate or perverse statements. I'm not sensitive... I'm a big boy, I can take it. I just said I wasn't going to stoop to the level of personal insults, despite your persistent requests for response in kind.

Better PQ. Less cost.


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post #182 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Clarence
I never asked for or expected an apology. Nor did I expect inappropriate or perverse statements. I just said I wasn't going to stoop to the level of personal insults, despite your persistent requests for response in kind.

Better PQ. Less cost.
Top of the mornin' to ya big dog......

Now go get to work on that new theatre of yours :D

Cliff
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post #183 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 05:55 AM
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Hi Cliff-

Yep, I gotta stack of drywall waiting for me after church. I have to swap out my lights with airtite insulation contact cans, first though.


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post #184 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 06:23 AM
 
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Clarence -

For the drywall I would highly recommend that you pick up a drywall bit to properly sink the screws. Makes the job a WHOLE lot easier. Trust me I know - the horror.

At least you have a flat ceiling and flat wall. Try an angled ceiling. Nasty. And do not even get me started on the angles in the Bathroom.

Pete

Now get to work - slacker

I would talk about the Digital vs CRT crap - but it was all said 8-9 pages ago. :) The Pizza stuff really threw me - :( AS I prefer Babes Pizza (Brandon Fl)
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post #185 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by overclkr
Ok, I was under the impression that the G15 is capable of up to 900:1 or 1000:1 contrast ratio properly calibrated?? Am I mistaken??
I've heard numbers as high as 750:1. The DigitalConnection link that talks about William Phelps' calibrations says about 650:1 calibrated. I'm sure there were people who measured higher numbers, but a lot more people were measuring incorrectly back then. They would put the sensor too far away from the projector to get an accurate reading. And even 750:1 is a far cry from 3600:1 of the 11k. And from what you've told us it sounds like your's isn't calibrated correctly to get more than the stock numbers. In fact, these things shipped with even worst CR numbers. When my M20 arrived new from the factory it was under 200:1.
Quote:

As far as what I paid, 1000 bucks for 2 of them, one not working so I'm keeping it for a spare parts machine.
That sounds like a very good deal to me.
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Darin, if you REALLY don't think this PJ is a fair comparison to the G70 then compare your 4200 dollar PJ to my G70 then.
Why? We already did that. I gave my nod to the G70 for the one setup. Given that these prices are actually fairly close at this point it only makes sense that the G70 should win when nothing but PQ is counted. Especially given that the 11k has a bright mode that can be accessed at the touch of a button. Although this is something that those at the comparison were not interested in, it is something that many others out there value. And it is most likely that whoever buys my 11k will be able to watch it setup pretty well the day they get it. Things like that aren't free in general and shouldn't be.
That first review looks like it is from 2000 and those others are also years old. The G15 has held up better than most products from back then, but we are still talking about a much older product that is not representative of current products. The time that reviews is written makes a big difference. I'm sure I could find some awesome reviews of movies on VHS tape, but their timing should be taken into account.
Quote:
Originally posted by Clarence
perverse statements
You are the one who is choosing to take a figure of speech literally. That seems a little perverse to me.

--Darin

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post #186 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2
That sounds like a very good deal to me.
Yeah, I thought so to although I have seen them go even cheaper.

Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2

Why? We already did that. I gave my nod to the G70 for the one setup. Given that these prices are actually fairly close at this point it only makes sense that the G70 should win when nothing but PQ is counted. Especially given that the 11k has a bright mode that can be accessed at the touch of a button. Although this is something that those at the comparison were not interested in, it is something that many others out there value. And it is most likely that whoever buys my 11k will be able to watch it the day they get it. Things like that aren't free in general and shouldn't be.
I'm just trying to give a better representation of what you feel is a better digital than the G15 today. If you say that you still give the nod to the G70, then 'nuff said on that subject and I do understand that the 11K I'm sure has it's positives as well that the G70 cannot match like sharpness.

Another thing to keep in mind about digital. It's fixed resolution. CRT does not suffer from this. Yes there are visible scanlines at lower resolutions, but it is still better than digital scaling.

Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2
You are the one who is choosing to take a figure of speech literally. That seems a little perverse to me.

--Darin
No Darin. It's just MY opinion. Just like YOUR opinion. Your happy and so am I. That's what is important. What other forum members decide is for their personal preference. I'm just stating my opinion and sticking to it until I see something better.

Maybe it's time for a Chicago shoot out...... Anyone in Chicago have a Qualia??

Cliff
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post #187 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Z-Photo

Now get to work - slacker
LOL....
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post #188 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by overclkr
No Darin. It's just MY opinion. Just like YOUR opinion. Your happy and so am I. That's what is important. What other forum members decide is for their personal preference. I'm just stating my opinion and sticking to it until I see something better.
That comment was for Clarence where he has taken a figure of speech that I started and didn't even write out and continued to proclaim that it is perverse. The figure of speech has absolutely nothing to do with anything perverse. It has to do with an attitude. Only those who take it literally would jump to perversion.

I don't think you and I disagree on the G70 vs 11k. They each have their advantages and each one would be a great fit for different people or environments. I definitely understand why Steve Smith has the G70 in his environment. It is a nice unit. Especially the way he has it mostly buried in his ceiling.

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post #189 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 08:39 AM
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My apologies for applying your insult beyond the extent that you intended. I will try to be more gracious and less literal in accepting your personal insults in the future. Perhaps I should've apologized earlier instead of requiring you to revisit the insult repeatedly until I acknowledged it properly.

Hopefully my proper acceptance of your insult will allow you to move on to something more important. But, please, let your next issue of discussion be more relevant than continued price analysis of frozen pizza. Or the "fact" that we don't understand the benefits or qualities of our CRTs as well as you.


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post #190 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Clarence
My apologies for applying your insult beyond the extent that you intended. I will try to be more gracious and less literal in accepting your personal insults in the future. Perhaps I should've apologized earlier instead of requiring you to revisit the insult repeatedly until I aknowledged it properly.

Hopefully my proper acceptance of your insult will allow you to move on to something more important. But, please, let your next issue of discussion be more relevant than continued price analysis of frozen pizza. Or the "fact" that we don't understand the benefits or qualities of our CRTs as well as you.
See. I told you that Mr. Smart-Aleck was more becoming for you. :)

In all seriousness, if are playing a game of acting like you weren't insulting me previous to that then it could be a little funny. But if you really think you weren't previous to my responding to your taunts then I think there is something wrong with you.

--Darin

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post #191 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2
I think there is something wrong with you.
I never said there wasn't something wrong with me.
Show me where I said that.


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post #192 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 09:24 AM
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O.K I have gone back and rechecked the coffin scene in Kill Bill Vol. 2 with my HT1000. I reset my settings on Theaterkek to default (the settings I use are radically different from default) and recalibrated the pj and watched this scene again. I saw more than the pinpricks of light this time so I elevated the black level and sure enough you can just make out her outline struggling in the coffin. It looks to me as if she is trying to reposition the flashlight.

Do I feel I am missing something if I don't elevate the black level to see this information. ABSOLUTELY NOT!! This scene has her in a sealed coffin, buried underground and at night! Should there be anything to see prior to her turning on the flashlight - not in my opinion. My feeling is that when they filmed this scene in the studio or wherever there was enough low light present for it to be recorded by the camera. She may have been placed in the box with the flashlight and told to reposition the flashlight so she could turn it on while filming was taking place - that way you could at least hear her struggling and then see her predicament when she finally turns the flashlight on. I don't personally believe it was intended for us to see her struggling prior to the light being turned on. Much more dramatic, IMO, only hearing her struggle and then the flashlight being turned on for a dramatic visual - great dynamic range.

I tried this scene again on my calbriated 65 inch Toshiba WS RPTV and it
did not show her outline while struggling in the coffin either.

With respect to the opening scene in Equilibrium - same thing. This scene is much more dramatic when it fades to black, not just dark grey (hey, no lights on in the building, so why should there be a glow in the room?).

I can calibrate just about any pj by changing gamma, black level etc. to reveal more (expand or manipulate) detail than what was intended to be seen. Just because it was recorded doesn't mean it was intended to be seen.

It strikes me a interesting that some on this forum thought I had a clue when I talked about the LT150 four years ago or so. Now when I discuss CRT I am clueless or better yet have been seduced by "black level".

Seeing is believing, so I invite anyone in the Toronto or Ottawa area who is openminded enough to PM me and come and see for themselves.

Cheers,

Grant
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post #193 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deja Vu
Should there be anything to see prior to her turning on the flashlight - not in my opinion.
That is a reasonable point. I think I would rather see it, but I can definitely understand what you are saying. If you can't see this on a CRT then I think that definitely shows that your black detail would be reasonably crushed in brighter scenes (since I believe on CRTs black floats to crush more as the APL goes up), but as you basically said, this is the tradeoff you prefer to calibrating differently.

--Darin

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post #194 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 09:46 AM
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It strikes me a interesting that some on this forum thought I had a clue when I talked about the LT150 four years ago or so. Now when I discuss CRT I am clueless or better yet have been seduced by "black level".
Not at all Grant.

We just happen to disagree on this topic. I want to see what I believe was intended for you to see by the director. You disagree, that is all.

Others have also commented that even with a full fade to black there should be "some" glow on a properly set up CRT. I agree with them.

Just a disagreement, nothing more.

Quote:
Seeing is believing, so I invite anyone in the Toronto or Ottawa area who is openminded enough to PM me and come and see for themselves.
Once again, I know what a FP CRT can do. I owned one for about a year. I'll make this as clear as possible. If we owned the same CRT I would have it calibrated so that I could still see Uma struggling, you would not.

Neither of us is really wrong here, we just want different things.
Call me if you want to discuss this further as I feel you may be taking this personally.

Mike

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post #195 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 09:47 AM
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My projector is down during HT construction, but I just tried this KB2 scene on my 19" LCD monitor with B&C maxxed. I couldn't see anything frame by frame.

So I captured a frame in PowerDVD and pumped up Highlights/Midtone/Shadow 100% in PaintShopPro.

This is the result. Probably similar to the gray details that darin is able to see.

http://img36.exs.cx/img36/9092/image79ya.gif

So there is detail there.

I'm adding this scene to my next demo DVD.


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post #196 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Clarence
This is the result. Probably similar to the gray details that darin is able to see.
That looks like more than I've seen and much more random. What I see is more of an outline around her and the flashlight, but the movement frame-by-frame may effect that also. I don't think I've seen any detail in the far corners.
Quote:

I'm adding this scene to my next demo DVD.
Do you have the "Finding Nemo" Abyss scene on there? That one might actually be the ultimate torture test for blackout, although this KB2 one is pretty interesting.

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post #197 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 10:04 AM
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I have been very curious about his as well and using a program called DGIndex set to TV out (so that black is defined as 16,16,16) and another program that allows me to look at the unaltered pixel. Using this program I monitored the output frame by frame from the beginning of the scene till she turns on the flashlight. I can also turn the brightness control very high so that in each frame I can see if there is anything there. I came to the following conclusion.
** Most of the frames for this scene are completely 16,16,16
** There are a number of scenes that do show some small outlines of something and most of them are at around 20,20,20 or so. This would be the equal of looking at the DVE plunge pattern which are closest to the steps and measure at 20,20,20
** Within a very few of these scenes there are a few pixels which may be at 45-50.

Conclusion is that there is a small amount of info there and it would be a tough test on any display device properly set up to show this detail.

Darin, out of curiousity how does your PJ fare in this scene??

Clarance, Go to chapter 11 of finding nemo and take a look at that till the lights come fully on.
I also wonder if doing a screne capture as you did and saving it to some other format has an altering effect on the frame?? It did when I initially tried to do this with TT this morning and it saved the screen capture to a bmp file. The detail was lost as far as I could tell. But with the program I mentioned above it is reading the unaltered VOB frame by frame.

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post #198 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 10:15 AM
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It took 7 frames before I could find one that wasn't all 0,0,0 (that's black on the PSP paintdropper).

The scene above had some 1,1,1 and 2,2,2 and 4,4,4 pixels

I don't know if this is closer to the beginning of the scene as the camera pans down through the dirt.

I'll go dig out Nemo.

I'm procrastinating replacing my lights because I just found out the hard way that there is more than my lighting circuit running though the cans... we had to do that to reroute some existing power cables that were moved to accommodate my projector recess. So popping the breaker didn't kill all of the juice in my joists. :eek:


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post #199 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 10:25 AM
 
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clarence, video black should be at 16, 16, 16 if it's being rendered properly, or captured properly, no matter what program you put it into (Assuming the program isn't altering the levels).
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post #200 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 10:35 AM
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Hmmm, every frame in Nemo abyss shows 0,0,0.

Once I finally can see the luminescent fish (right when Marlin says "Now Dory, I want you to tell me... Do you see anything?"), then I boosted Hi/Mid/Shadow 100% and get this:

http://img26.exs.cx/img26/2640/image160rm.gif

Basically, it increased the ~10 pixel area around the center of the light from original levels of ~20,20,20 to about ~100,100,100 (where 0,0,0 is black and 255,255,255 is white).

Then there's a scene change where Marlin says "I see it too"

Just to demonstrate how I'm using PSP to amplify the dark detail...

http://img173.exs.cx/img173/2161/image171nv.gif

Here's what the original frame looks like... this detail should be visible on ALL our projectors...

http://img190.exs.cx/img190/3497/image17orig8lj.gif


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Quote:
Hmmm, every frame in Nemo abyss shows 0,0,0.
Clarence, how are you capturing these values, this should not at all be the case, something is not correct with your captures. 0 for black indicates an expansion to PC levels, which will clip all values in the source that are below 16.
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post #202 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
clarence, video black should be at 16, 16, 16 if it's being rendered properly, or captured properly, no matter what program you put it into (Assuming the program isn't altering the levels).
I'm pressing the "snapshot" icon in PowerDVD, which copies the frame to my clipboard. I then paste as new image in PSP.

I'll rip the chapter and extract the frame from the VOB instead of using PowerDVD.

But it'll be later tonight. I'm going to go short out that circuit so I can finish my lights and hang the first layer of my frickin' ceiling.


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post #203 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 10:56 AM
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Here is the 5th frame in from when the light comes on. There are suspended particles of various sizes in the water through out the frame. If you can't see them turn up your brightness and you will see they are there.
Black background is 16,16,16
There, I think I have it. Thanks Clarance.

http://img77.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img77&image=nemo2wf.png

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post #204 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 10:58 AM
 
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What is all your software settings and such Clarence, are you using VMR9? I'm not familiar with Power DVD much. Could you use zoomplayer?
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post #205 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chuchuf
Here is the 5th frame in from when the light comes on. There are suspended particles of various sizes in the water through out the frame. If you can't see them turn up your brightness and you will see they are there.
Black background is 16,16,16
I tried to post but the file is to large. How do I post to the reply itself??

Terry
Go to http://imageshack.us/
click "Browse"
click "host it!"
copy the URL they give you at the bottom where it says "Direct link to image"

Paste that url here

or zip your bmp and attach the zip here.


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post #206 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 11:18 AM
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And here is the one from Kill Bill 2.

http://img49.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img49...llbill27ob.png

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post #207 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 11:23 AM
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OK, I installed ZoomPlayer.

In the Nemo abyss, right where the luminescent fish becomes visible, instead of 0,0,0 that I got from PowerDVD, I get more accurate values like (20,18,19), like Terry's shot.

But after amplification of hi/mid/shadow, I still don't get any extra detail

http://img85.exs.cx/img85/4765/findingnemo000016us.gif


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post #208 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chuchuf
And here is the one from Kill Bill 2.

http://img49.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img49...llbill27ob.png

Terry
And here's Terry's KB2 scene with hi/mid/shadow amplified 100%

http://img85.exs.cx/img85/1738/image182pu.gif

If I get really bored, I'll capture about 30 frames from KB2, amplify them, then build an animated GIF so we can watch the amplified hidden detail in motion.

But first, back to my HT lights... zaaaaappppp...


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post #209 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 11:27 AM
 
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Gosh, we are such nerds.

:D
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post #210 of 292 Old 03-20-2005, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
Gosh, we are such nerds.

:D
I was thinking the same thing about you's:D...But i'm thankful you nerds are out there:).

Jeff

Mediocrity will always appeal to the masses, while excellence is most often over looked and only appreciated by a select few.
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