Any late breaking news/updates on blended CRTs? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 249 Old 06-02-2005, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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If one CRT looks so good, I can't imagine what two doing half duty could do. Forget 4x3, think 8x3 using the entire raster area. Who's on first?
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post #2 of 249 Old 06-02-2005, 12:55 PM
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There are a couple of current threads discussing blending..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=543086

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=541183

Anyone who would attempt to blend 2 crt's has to be a complete fool..

BTW, Blending was on first but got tossed out of the game and has been replaced by Torus..he's much less maintenance and brighter too..

John
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post #3 of 249 Old 06-02-2005, 12:57 PM
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Quote:


Anyone who would attempt to blend 2 crt's has to be a complete fool..

I resemble this remark.

However, it might be more correct to imply that anyone who thinks that they can easily succeed at blending is a fool.

There's nothing foolish with "attempting". It can be entertaining. It can be educational.
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post #4 of 249 Old 06-02-2005, 01:20 PM
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Me to, cause I'm gonna try it again. Andres Quadro card is back from NVidia from being repaired so next week sometime we will give it another shot.

Terry

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post #5 of 249 Old 06-02-2005, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Is this 'foolish' just with CRTs? Or, foolish all together? I saw some pix once from a trade show and it was seamless. It more than captures my imagination. But, I'm begining to think it'll take more than a Quadro card to pull it off.
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post #6 of 249 Old 06-03-2005, 03:19 PM
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CRT will give a much better final result than using the same system with LCD/DLP - wash my mouth out!

Its the Grey not Black that will give chip based issues

If you had told me 2 years ago that I could buy 300Gb Drives for less than £100.00 I would NEVER have believed you.

I could not have bought a 1209s when released.

Technology is fast moving - blended pictures are in use every day world wide and though it is true that most as serious commercial set ups, software or firmware based cards are sure to turn up one day at prices that all can afford.

I have "stiched" many video walls, colour balance etc. so I intend to document and photo how things go, from a hard edge set up to what ever I end up affording........
Spending Hours/Days/weeks is no issue for me, I get involved with mainly one off designs on a weekly basis, without the quest to do new things I would be bored.

Maybe I will fail but along the way I will have tried something new, had a bit of fun, and will accept the "told you so's" of course if I succeed "A large portion of Humble pie" to be served to the non believers.

Currently the odds are 5% in the blenders favour and 95% against

Bringing Rodan-O-Blend to you.

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post #7 of 249 Old 06-03-2005, 03:32 PM
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Dude, I applaud your attitude! I too will go ahead with this. Not so much for success as for the fun and education I will have along the way! I'm not even sure I would want to install it if it did work.

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post #8 of 249 Old 06-03-2005, 04:11 PM
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Hmm, blended PJ's and a Torus high-gain screen. Possibly for a 180" 2.35 native aspect.

I'm in... can I have some money to start the project?

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #9 of 249 Old 06-03-2005, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie View Post

Hmm, blended PJ's and a Torus high-gain screen. Possibly for a 180" 2.35 native aspect.

I'm in... can I have some money to start the project?

John (MC Maniac) and I considered this. Our fear was that focus would be hard to get as the corners would not be on the same plane. For an example, the right side of the right projector would be closer than the left side of the same projector. We can use corner focus to make a Torus work with one projector, but alas we don't have independent corner focus for a dual CRT Torus. At least my projector doesn't. I know that planetariums and such blend on curves surfaces, but only I believe with special lenses.

Maybe I'm wrong and it can be done. Would be great to know!

Hmmm, now that I think more about it, if the projectors were setup in more of a "v" shape as opposed to parallel, it may just work...

James

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post #10 of 249 Old 06-03-2005, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semisentient View Post

John (MC Maniac) and I considered this. Our fear was that focus would be hard to get as the corners would not be on the same plane. For an example, the right side of the right projector would be closer than the left side of the same projector. We can use corner focus to make a Torus work with one projector, but alas we don't have independent corner focus for a dual CRT Torus. At least my projector doesn't. I know that planetariums and such blend on curves surfaces, but only I believe with special lenses.

Maybe I'm wrong and it can be done. Would be great to know!

Hmmm, now that I think more about it, if the projectors were setup in more of a "v" shape as opposed to parallel, it may just work...

James


There's a double whammy here - and both are affecting sharpness right in the prime center area..as James points out there's the corner focus in the center and also you have to converge 2 crts in the blend zone..it's a LOT of work to get the focus looking good in the center..any slightest drifting and the center looks softer than the sides..

John
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post #11 of 249 Old 06-03-2005, 05:38 PM
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MadMrH..

Why not move your post from the G70 stacked thread to here and keep it all together?

What is the final screen size you will have?

John
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post #12 of 249 Old 06-04-2005, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

Is this 'foolish' just with CRTs? Or, foolish all together? I saw some pix once from a trade show and it was seamless. It more than captures my imagination. But, I'm begining to think it'll take more than a Quadro card to pull it off.

To clarify...I was making a joke - poking fun at myself..

Clarence got it but others might not - just realized some might take this the wrong way..

Good luck with your follow up attempt Terry..

John
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post #13 of 249 Old 06-04-2005, 08:34 AM
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This is a combination of my posts so far to try and keep blending posts together as suggested by MC Maniac (who did not offend me ). I will edit this post as things change, I will only "bump" this thread for major changes but will edit as small changes happen. PLEASE voice any opinions.

28/6/05 - added SEOS response, added contrast modulation pj thread link.

.....and so it begins.....

Blending options software, firmware & external equipment I have looked into

Nvidia Quadro FX cards, others did not get good results from these cards. I have written to Nvidia but no response.

Watchout - PC based software - approx cost £4,500 for the software and you need 3 pc's! (too expensive)

Analogue WAY - £16,750 - WAY too expensive - hardware based

Panaram - hardware based - £25,000

Matrox PJ range of cards - offer 3 & 4 head display with OVERLAY only. $2000 or $3000 - PCI card based - NOT ON GENERAL SALE but current models

DScalar - currently being looked at

Baro SEMU - currently being looked at

Barco polaris - software for use with projection within domes etc

SEOS - their answer to my question of do you do anything that would help us?
"Unfortunately, SEOS specialises in complete display system solutions for the flight simulation market and Virtual Reality centres - we don't offer systems compatible with your requirements as these can be purchased at lower cost "off-the-shelf".


Items I have so far

Nvidia Quadro FX4000 card - I know loads think this is a poor starting point BUT the 4000 is the top AGP card with the latest drivers - Installed
I currently have 2 Barco 801s - one data, one half turned into graphics - Both will be graphics when new boards arrive which are also on route (some arrived 7/6/05). The graphics has scheimpflug adjustment, higher resolution.

I am lucky enough to have 2 soft edge & contrast modulated boards for an 801s Arrived 7/6/05. They take the place of input 3 board so I must change back to RGBHV inputs.

I have 3 convergance on green boards (These wont fit the 801s ) - but I intend to end up with a pair of 1208/9 if this actually works - Arrived 7/6/05

I have the base of a RG801 (non s) this has a convergance on green tray which might work.

Anyone got the modified convergance on green boards for a 801s? or Soft edge contrast modulated for later projectors , cash waiting.

If anyone in the UK has a 801s D or G kicking about I could do with it any condition even non working, with toasted tubes cash waiting - currently one of mine is in my cinema room, the other is ready for this setup - I dont want to loose the use of my cinema while I play with these toys......As I think this will take me many weeks to progress.

I will try and post pics as this moves forward

My reasons for trying this are as follows

Use of more vertical tube size so higher resolution and brightness- My Main Reason (see below*)
Slight increase in brightness PJ nearer screen - not a main reason
Better convergance stability PJ nearer screen - not a main reason

* I have a fixed 16:9 screen, widescreen from one PJ uses 75% of vertical tube height - hence the masks you see on loads of tubes
As I calculate 2 PJ with a 25% overlay should use 98.4375% of the vertical tube height - and greatly increase the resolution to a total picture of 2100x1600 and give a 25% increase in brightness per projector, which will mean a % increase in brightness overall not sure how that bit works !

I know there are people out there who dont think this will use any more tube area - I could be wrong - but to date no one has convinced me of that. The combined tube area becomes almost (within 2% inc. overlay) a native 16:9
( Boy I is gonna feel silly if I got that wrong )

Maybe I will fail but along the way I will have tried something new, had a bit of fun, and will accept the "told you so's" of course if I succeed "A large shout of were not worthy" will be heard from the non believers.

Currently the odds are 5% in the blenders favour and 95% against

System setups

Others please send me a PM and I will add your info here, so far this is info I found within other posts

Mad Mr H (Andy H) - 2 x BG801s, PC based overlay system Nvidia Quadro FX4000 AGP, PJ based edge blending system SEMU, 8 foot 16:9 fixed screen - getting started.

Clarence - 1 x ECP3101 1 x ECP4101, PC based overlay/blending system Nvidia Quadro FX1000 - UNCONFIRMED first attemp in 2004

Chuchuf (Terry) - unknow details

Prometheusbound - 1 x G70 (crt) 1 x HS51 (dlp i think), PC based Nvidia 6800 using hard edge system - UNCONFIRMED

techman707 (?)- Asus dual head pc based system, Hard edge, UNCOMFIRMED

MC Maniac (John)- PC based Quadro FX3000 UNCONFIRMED

Art Sonneborn (?)- UNCONFIRMED

? (Tim Martin) - Folsom Blend Pro external equipment based - UNCONFIRMED

cocquebert - DScaler - 2 PC + software: 0$ but manual fine tuning (much time ...) 2x1031 + 2Pc see notes here
wwwsi.supelec.fr/cc/download/readmeBlend_AR.htm

Other threads

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=543086 My original thread

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=541183 Stacked G70's

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=553564 Pj's with contrast modulation as standard

My own notes in case anyone wants to follow my progress

Nvidia Quadro FX4000 - Installed in my HTPC running v6.x.x.x drivers, latest is 7.x.x.x . Unable to update drivers without the loss of the Nvidia control system. (3 attempts) Will build a new driver disk and start again. Also picture quality seems to have a more "grainy" apprearance. Colours are however much more vibrant but brightness is lower. possible driver conflict issues so will start with a fresh drive. loss of output from card at times - this may well be motherboard related as I have had this in the past with my ATi board.

Noticed that the Nvidia site has the download for drivers and user manual the wrong way round! Also first line of the .pdf file for work station user guide spells station wrong "Staion" . So my faith in Nvidia is weak. They have also removed their on line shop for ONE MONTH while they update it!
(seller of this card on ebay gradogrado NOT TRUSTED - bought as new obviously second hand, rude and abusive on phone)

Bringing Rodan-O-Blend to you.

Find me on the map :UK CRT : European CRT : Worldwide CRT
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post #14 of 249 Old 06-04-2005, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

If one CRT looks so good, I can't imagine what two doing half duty could do. Forget 4x3, think 8x3 using the entire raster area. Who's on first?

There's something new, a couple of people who insisted on trying it were committed to mental institutions after pursuing it for only two weeks. I don't know is on third!

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -Ghandi
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post #15 of 249 Old 06-04-2005, 09:04 AM
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I have been considered Mad for a number of years now.

Just waiting for the NHS here to give me a bed.

Till then anything stupid, crazy, impossible im yer man.

Bringing Rodan-O-Blend to you.

Find me on the map :UK CRT : European CRT : Worldwide CRT
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post #16 of 249 Old 06-04-2005, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techman707 View Post

There's something new, a couple of people who insisted on trying it were committed to mental institutions after pursuing it for only two weeks. I don't know is on third!

Who's on third.

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post #17 of 249 Old 06-04-2005, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheusbound View Post

Who's on third.

Everyone knows who's on first and I don't know is on second, but what is on third?

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -Ghandi
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post #18 of 249 Old 06-12-2005, 04:12 PM
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Just a quick note,

My Nvidia FX Quadro 4000 arrived and fitted about a week ago,
Came with 6.x.x.x drivers latest are version 7.x.x.x BUT the latest drivers when loaded delete the Nvidia control panel, so currently running v6 . More time needed here to sort that (3 attempts with same result)

Convergence needed minor changes with new card, picture now has better detail definition than it had before, My old graphics card was an ATi 9600 AGP (I think, will check that and edit another day)

Colours are more vibrant - and I feel more natural tonal colours, not over coloured.

Picture does also seem to be sharper, though I have not gone back to the old card since the change to check.

So as a graphics card, and an expensive one at that, It would appear better than my last few. (ATi and Nvidia cards all about £100-£250 new in last 12 months)

I have now bought one Barco 1208/2 (Waiting delivery), idea is that I remove my 801s and install the 1208/2 and then I have another room to set up the two 801s with blending system as a test.

If this goes well I will be looking for another 1208/2

not a lot to tell but slow progress, at least the money on the quadro was not wasted in my opinion, I can already see better results

Bringing Rodan-O-Blend to you.

Find me on the map :UK CRT : European CRT : Worldwide CRT
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post #19 of 249 Old 06-13-2005, 02:33 AM
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What is your final screen size?

John
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post #20 of 249 Old 06-13-2005, 11:01 AM
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8 foot, fixed 16:9 on the final home cinema installation....

I do also have a 24 foot wide external screen (twin 6000 ansi Barcos dlp)

and a 22 foot wide external as well.

do you think this is too small a screen for this project - the HT one?

Bringing Rodan-O-Blend to you.

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post #21 of 249 Old 06-13-2005, 12:46 PM
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Why couldn't you set it up like the human eyes. 2 crts on the same plane but each facing slightly left or right accordingly to even the spacing with the screen and have an overlap of about 30 deg off center. you would be able to produce a very life like image that way especially on a torus you could folow the focal plane of the human eye in an arc left to right and top to botom ie use a string at the center and follw the arc it will not change the focal plane to the viewer sitting in the optimal position. Perfect for Simulators or 3d applications. or comprimise to make the screen optimum for the audiance.
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post #22 of 249 Old 06-13-2005, 03:32 PM
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I think for now I will just concerntrate on getting an edge blend system to work, after that I will perfect my walking on water party trick and then I might try a torus screen idea. (maybe I should reverse that order!)

Joking aside I need to keep the installation as simple as possible as there are so many "what if's" at the moment........

Bringing Rodan-O-Blend to you.

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post #23 of 249 Old 06-13-2005, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMrH View Post

8 foot, fixed 16:9 on the final home cinema installation....

I do also have a 24 foot wide external screen (twin 6000 ansi Barcos dlp)

and a 22 foot wide external as well.

do you think this is too small a screen for this project - the HT one?

Yes..a blend only makes sense on a 2.35 screen..here's why..

your screen is 54" x 96" - the left CRT displays 54" x 72" - the right one also 54" x 72"..the combined total is 54" x 144"

A 2.35 movie would need 54" x 127" - you end up with a 17" blend zone..so your screen needs to be 54" x 127" to make the best use of the raster..

Make the screen only 96" w then in order to see the proper ratio of 2.35, the vertical height can only be 41" - you still can't use all the raster (you are using 75% of the vertical height vs 55% on a single CRT)

on 16:9 movies, you could use the full raster height but you have a very wide blend zone - 1/2 the screen in this case

For a 16:9 screen, it makes more sense to stack the 2 CRT's, but stacking has other issues..my big negative would be reduced sharpness..

Since you have the Nvidia card go ahead and try the blend - it should give you some idea of what it will look like and you can decide if it's worth it - to go with a 2.35 screen..

John
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post #24 of 249 Old 06-13-2005, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMrH View Post


? (Tim Martin) - Folsom Blend Pro external equipment based - UNCONFIRMED

Huh? Unconfirmed about what??? We had "BlendZilla" set up here at E-Tech for weeks on two different occasions, not my fault if a stripped down version ($15K) was not brought to market by Folsom after they announced same, the demo gear was $34K and a bit tricky to dance with; the image quality was extraordinary! I will try to find our prior thread in the Archives, I'll be baaaaack!

--------------------
Tim at E-Tech ooo ehometech@earthlink.net ......your Marquee Pro Shop!
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post #25 of 249 Old 06-14-2005, 01:21 AM
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Barco bought Folsom about a year ago didn't they?

Roland Brooks
B4 Projection Ltd
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post #26 of 249 Old 06-14-2005, 10:39 AM
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Three-way blend on 50m x 10m screen:

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/GxL/tech.html

OK, it's not CRT, but it IS separate RGB projection - and it's waaaay coooool!!!

[With acknowledgement to Dokworm for discovering this gem]

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post #27 of 249 Old 06-18-2005, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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"OK, it's not CRT, but it IS separate RGB projection - and it's waaaay coooool!!!"

Where is Sam Hill do you find a screen that big? Will six million pixels be enough on something like that?

An ever so humble 5'x12' would ice my cake. 2 PJs is enough.
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post #28 of 249 Old 06-20-2005, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMrH View Post


DScalar - currently being looked at

DScaler - 2 PC + software: 0$ but manual fine tuning (much time ...)

Me : 2x1031 + 2Pc

http://wwwsi.supelec.fr/cc/download/readmeBlend_AR.htm
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post #29 of 249 Old 06-20-2005, 06:23 AM
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MadMrH and Terry,

I'm pulling for you guys on the nVidia approach. I've been following all the threads closely for the last year. I've got a matched pair of Ampro 3600M's (mostly used in simulator market) that I was hoping I could use in a 12' wide rear screen 2.35 setup. That's about as wide as I can can go with the focal length of the short throw lenses.

If you guys can't make it work, then I'm going to abandon the whole thing.

Good luck,
Ray
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post #30 of 249 Old 06-20-2005, 06:59 PM
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Hi Ray,

Many thanks for the support.......

Currently I spent the weekend removing my 13 cinema chairs, adding 16 bass shakers and carpet to the raised seating area which I nearly finished, next 2 weekends are very busy and then I should be pushing the testing forward.

Purchase of my third 801s did not complete so that has also slowed me down, I have bought a 1208/2 so might end up with that on the ceiling and then I will have 2 801s's to use for testing.

"I've been following all the threads closely for the last year"
One more reason why I hope this works, there are a growing number of people who would benefit from this idea. My full test system still needs to be setup but I am currently buying in parts, I now have about 90% of the bits I need and the test room is being emptied (slowly!).

watch this space...........

Bringing Rodan-O-Blend to you.

Find me on the map :UK CRT : European CRT : Worldwide CRT
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