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post #91 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 08:29 AM
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[quote=penticton102]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyG
Excuse me...who said anything about "banning religion"??? Get the story straight before you start attacking. Sounds like just another religious .

From your religious attack I can tell you think religion belongs in public school, however you need to understand one thing. This country is founded on separation of church and state, that's the reason religion is tax free, if religion is allowed in public school then the freedom to worship will disappear, because we all know which religion will fight to be "American's religion", and that can only be the Christian. They are to vocal, and to pushy to allow anything else.
No religious freedom, then no real freedom.
Religion is to violent to allow in public school...that's why we have private schools, take it there.


KennyG what are you on pot? as usual you have a propensity to shoot your mouth off before knowing what you are talking about, i,m not even an american but i am aware of what your founding fathers said and did in regards to the founding of america . just do a little research into what they said which is fully documented, especially where the term "seperation of church and state is concerned" i haven,t been to church in twenty years so i really don,t know who the hell you are talking about when you rty to label me as some kind of religious zealot and i really don,t need pious lectures from someone who can,t see the value of teaching our kids right and wrong in schools and what behavior norms that are exspected in interacting with out fellow citizens, so save your drivel for some enlightened discussions where all the tall pious foreheads who look down their long noses with approval at the decay of society at large and your comment that" religion is to violent to be allowed into public schools" has led me to the conclusion that pot is not being smoked here maybe crack or crystal meth............


don,t kill, don,t steal, don,t covet, honor your folks, sounds real violent to me we certanily can,t have those revolutionary thoughts being taught in school now can we?.....nooooooooooo. way to contraversial isn,t it...we want our kids to be in the peaceful world of gangsta rap where sex,,raping , murdering and dope dealing and taking is more acceptible than GASP!GASP....the ten commandments.... there i said it and universe is still unfolding as it does every day, so put your crackpipe down and put your conspiratorial tin foil hat back on it seems to suit you.......
OK, slow down and get control here, there's no need to get violent.
First you are the one who is talking as though I feel religion should be ban period.
Also do a little research on violence and religion, you'll see it every day throughout history...the crusades would be a great place to start.
Second, the above "good" qualities you refer to are not exclusive to religion...do you know anyone who has followed all ten commandments to perfection? I certainly don't.
Just because my opinion differs from your doesn't give you the right to make these person attack about my character...oh wait, your just someone on the other end of a key board...I suppose that makes it alright. Just another case of what's wrong in this world.
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post #92 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 08:32 AM
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I saw a bumper sticker that that perfectly sums up the views of the Bush supporting Christian Right (perhaps some of you should look for it):

"Who would Jesus bomb?"
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post #93 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
I saw a bumper sticker that that perfectly sums up the views of the Bush supporting Christian Right (perhaps some of you should look for it):

"Who would Jesus bomb?"

LOL...WWJB
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post #94 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by KennyG
Any of you have one of those "support our troops" stickers???
Kenny, Kenny, Kenny. Don't you know it is far easier to just support the Chinese magnet maker by buying one of those magnets then to actually DO something to support the troops?
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post #95 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 08:42 AM
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Pentiction...I haven't been back on this forum long enough for you to have any idea whether I have a "propensity to shoot my mouth off"...or whether I smoke crack!! ;)
Just a quick thought for some to take a deep breath and relax...the moderators have been great in letting this thread continue.
If those who are getting obnoxios will calm down we can probably keep this going!
None of us always choose the correct words when speaking over the net, so we all must have a certain "thick skin" to keep it all civil.
If I've personally attacked anyone, I'm sorry, that is not my intent.
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post #96 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 08:42 AM
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Kenny, my yawn was directed at the memo report you referenced, not you. Quite being so sensitive, will ya?! ;)

As for personal attacks, I haven't attacked you at all...I've been trying to be very civil. Trust me, you'll know if I'm attacking you - I can shoot vitriolic venom with the best of 'em - and I can back up what I say intellectually too. But this is simply not the place for that, I don't don't like to be that kind of person anymore. Let's keep it civil here guys - so far the mods have tolerated our little diversion from CRT's, but if y'all start calling each other mean names, this fun will be stopped.

One last thing Kenny, I disagree that teaching creationism is a bad thing. It's not pushing a religion as most would believe, but rather showing another viable point of view so our youngsters have more info with which to form their opinions. I don't see where this is a bad thing...and I'm no religious zealot either - haven't been to a church in years. Church, and organized religion are a far different matter than simply teaching science and creationism from a different angle. Personally, I think you're creating a bit of a straw man argument, since standard science will NEVER be replaced at this time. IMO you've kind've got a "sky is falling" mentality. Relax...it'll be ok... :D:D:D

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post #97 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M NEWMAN
Kenny, my yawn was directed at the memo report you referenced, not you. Quite being so sensitive, will ya?! ;)

As for personal attacks, I haven't attacked you at all:D:D:D
Mike, ok, I now understand the yawn...and you are right, the D memo is just a back up to what we already knew.

Also I'm very aware that you have made no personal attacks, those comments were in no way directed toward you.
The one's who are getting "testy" know who they are.
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post #98 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M NEWMAN
...One last thing Kenny, I disagree that teaching creationism is a bad thing. It's not pushing a religion as most would believe, but rather showing another viable point of view so our youngsters ...
Oh please. There is NO SUCH THING as "creationism." It's called ... "Religion." Giving it an "ism" suffix doesn't legitimize it.

Of course it is pushing religion. And it is the purpose of churches to offer THAT particular "viable point of view" not schools.
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post #99 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Person99
You forgot how well he has done running up the deficit.
...and now it's coming back down with the unabated economic growth we've had the past 5 years. Economic ebbs and flows, my friend. It's all cyclical, and always has been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
Please don't consider your list of accomplishments as something that all American's are glad to see come to pass. The truth is far from that. Frankly, I still don't know what happened in the 2004 election (the statistical probably of exit polls in battle ground states being off as far as they were is quite high--high enough to make you wonder what happened).Dave
Oh...I'm sure Bush stole the election again...just like last time. :rolleyes:
Geez, don't you guys ever get tired of this silly argument. Let it go...let it go... :D

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post #100 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 08:48 AM
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[quote=KennyG]
Quote:
Originally Posted by penticton102

OK, slow down and get control here, there's no need to get violent.
First you are the one who is talking as though I feel religion should be ban period.
Also do a little research on violence and religion, you'll see it every day throughout history...the crusades would be a great place to start.
what's wrong in this world.


i have done a little research its mans interpertation of what religion is thats what the probelm. i challenge anyone to show me in the bible where god is a baptist,catholic,methodist,lutheran,angelican,muslim,buddist ,wicca,druid, its just not there, as for the present clash in IRAQ whether people want to admit it or not its a clash of civilizations and its a battle where the west cannot afford to lose or retreat from..............

behind every successful man is a suprised mother-inlaw......
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post #101 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuraCL
Oh please. There is NO SUCH THING as "creationism." It's called ... "Religion." Giving it an "ism" suffix doesn't legitimize it.

Of course it is pushing religion. And it is the purpose of churches to offer THAT particular "viable point of view" not schools.

Acura, let me ask you something...around 90% of Americans consider themselves affiliated with religion in some way (practicing or belief, but not necessarily actively participating in a church) - sorry I don't have the exact %, but it's really friggin' high. Do you feel their views should be squelched by the tyranny of the minority atheists? Or do you feel that they should have some venue in which to teach? After all, these some 90% of Americans pay taxes for those public schools too, so why shouldn't they be able to speak their mind. IMO, this hasn't got a thing to do with church power, but rather political power. However, I'm not naive enough to think that oprganized religion isn't pushing this agenda...it's just that the reality is that most in this country believe in religion and I think their voice should be heard as a legit position. I do NOT endorse a state sponsored religion though, but I also don't agree that this would lead to one either. ;)

Mike
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post #102 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 08:58 AM
 
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OMG american kids are tought that God created life?!
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post #103 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M NEWMAN
One last thing Kenny, I disagree that teaching creationism is a bad thing. It's not pushing a religion as most would believe, but rather showing another viable point of view so our youngsters have more info with which to form their opinions.
Again, we could go on for days about the viability of this. But, lets just handle the simple aspect of this. For it not to be pushing a religion (or more specifically, a particular religion), you would have to teach unsubstatiated creation myths from other religions also. I don't see you advocating our youngsters get taught the creation stores from the Shinto or Hindu religions.

BTW, voting fraud does happen. Secondly, no matter what your viewpoint about the exit polls, there have been many acedemic papers written about this in statistical circles because the error rate of exit polls is historically about .4%. The 2004 election is quite an anamoly and I would expect you know that given all the research you claim to do. The topic of many of these papers is the fact that no explaination put forward yet actually accounts for the error. There may well be a legitimate reason for it and we don't know it yet. I for one am quite curious to find out the reason for this discrepency. Your intellectual curiousity might not be piqued by such a substantially anamloy--but mine is.
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post #104 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 09:02 AM
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[quote=penticton102]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyG



i have done a little research its mans interpertation of what religion is thats what the probelm. i challenge anyone to show me in the bible where god is a baptist,catholic,methodist,lutheran,angelican,muslim,buddist ,wicca,druid, its just not there, as for the present clash in IRAQ whether people want to admit it or not its a clash of civilizations and its a battle where the west cannot afford to lose or retreat from..............
Very true god is not defined by one religion...but here in America, our values are attacked every day by the radical right, and that far right seems to be about 98% Christian. Granted they will never get their way, however they are working to remove some of the freedoms we enjoy.
There seems to be a feeling by many in this country that if your not for Bush, your against religion, and that comes from this radical right. In many ways Bush aligned himself with these people...or at least these people see a way to push their agend through him.

We many have a clash of civilizations with Iraq, but that doesn't give us the right to go in and install our way of life in their country...tell this to the thousands of American kids who have lose their Dads and Moms over there.
I gotta go to work, and try to understand Spanish (you'd think after living 39 year out west I'd know it...but I'm a resistor!)
Besides Person99 has got my side splitting...Chinese magnets :D :eek:
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post #105 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M NEWMAN
Or do you feel that they should have some venue in which to teach?
Homes, Sunday School, Summer programs, etc.

By your argument, whatever the majority currently believes should be taught as fact. Interesting.
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post #106 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 09:06 AM
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Of course their opinions should be squelched. This is a representational government not a mobocracy. It is a government whose founders and foundations are based on restricting the power of established religion on government.

Do I feel they should have a venue in which to teach: Hello?! Ever hear of church? Home schooling? Publicly funded schools may teach comparitive religion properly, but not any particular tenets of any particular religion within a different course of study (e.g. religious theories in science class ... what you call "creationism".)

I don't know of any atheists who insist that THEIR beliefs be taught in school. And don't equate actual science with atheism.
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post #107 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stepan
OMG american kids are tought that God created life?!
In *some* (ahem) states, you bet.

Hint: those states voted for Bush.
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post #108 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
I saw a bumper sticker that that perfectly sums up the views of the Bush supporting Christian Right (perhaps some of you should look for it):

"Who would Jesus bomb?"
One time a crowd wanted to stone someone to death, but Jesus came around and asked them "The one without any sin should throw the first stone" after a few seconds of silence from the crowd a huge stone passed Jesus' shoulder from behind and hit the condemned criminal.
After Jesus had turned around he said "Mother, do you always have to take me word-for-word?"

The difference between the men and the boys is the price of their toys
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post #109 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M NEWMAN
Do you feel their views should be squelched by the tyranny of the minority atheists?


Or do you feel that they should have some venue in which to teach? After all, these some 90% of Americans pay taxes for those public schools too, so why shouldn't they be able to speak their mind. ;)
Overall great post but I have to point out a couple things here. ;)

IMO the real tyranny in this country doesn't come from the atheists, there are to few of them, it's coming from the Christians and their propensity to push their views on the rest of us. They seem to be behind every religion related attack our society comes under.
The way to teach religion in school is through the voucher system...if parents want their children to by taught in that way, then give them a voucher and let them go to a religious school of their choosing, but do not make my child learn religion (or creationism as some would smooth it over)
I taught my daughter to be a free thinker, to make her own decision as it relates to religion. And for my family I did the right thing, because not only has she just graduated college, and is becoming successful, but she's a wonderful, caring human being...that's all any parent can ask for...religious or not.
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post #110 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 09:26 AM
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HEY GUYS...Raster has got to have a smokin' red face over this thread...I just hope we don't give him a heart attack...(edit)by the way, was Terry's question ever answered???
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post #111 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyG
HEY GUYS...Raster has got to have a smokin' red face over this thread...I just hope we don't give him a heart attack...(edit)by the way, was Terry's question ever answered???
I have not seen him. I don't think he's been able to sneak onto his mom's computer in the last couple days.

And yes, Terry found him.
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post #112 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 10:03 AM
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I don't know where tubes guy is. I don't even know what a tubes guy is.

But I do know this. Five days ago this got 288,000 hits. Today it's getting over 600,000 hits and that figure is climbing faster'n a Saturn rocket in overdrive.
I'm on board. It's time for you to get on board too. It's our only salvation.

http://*******.com/dagju
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post #113 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuraCL
Of course their opinions should be squelched. This is a representational government not a mobocracy.
Ahem....exactly who do these representatives represent?! Frogs?!!! Of course we live in a republic, but that doesn't change the fact that our representatives should be making policy that addresses the vast majority. Only in the case of detrimental or restrictive rights plawmaking should we avoid the majority. And I don't see religious information as prohibiting any rights. Just more knowledge to form opinions with. Knowledge is power.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuraCL
It is a government whose founders and foundations are based on restricting the power of established religion on government.
No, I disagree, the founders wanted to prevent the establishment of a state sponsored religion...like that which they recently escaped from in Britian. That's it. You're reading more into it than is there IMHO

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuraCL
Do I feel they should have a venue in which to teach: Hello?! Ever hear of church? Home schooling? Publicly funded schools may teach comparitive religion properly, but not any particular tenets of any particular religion within a different course of study (e.g. religious theories in science class ... what you call "creationism".)
I see that you missed the part where they pay taxes too, but you made up for that a little by stating that "Publicly funded schools may teach comparitive religion properly, but not any particular tenets of any particular religion within a different course of study"....and I totally agree. In fact, you just made my point - see, we're not that far apart after all! Yippie!!! :D Sure, I've been generalizing, using the creationism mantra, but my point is that teaching that there is an alternative viewpoint isn't neccesarily a bad or dangerous thing. If you don't like that word, well, ok... ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuraCL
I don't know of any atheists who insist that THEIR beliefs be taught in school. And don't equate actual science with atheism.
I think they have been for decades in a thinly veiled way - it's called a secular agenda, and it's morality is derived by whims, not absolutes. Past great democratic societies have crumbled under this agenda....can you say Romans? :D

Mike
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post #114 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyG
Overall great post but I have to point out a couple things here. ;)

IMO the real tyranny in this country doesn't come from the atheists, there are to few of them, it's coming from the Christians and their propensity to push their views on the rest of us. They seem to be behind every religion related attack our society comes under.
The way to teach religion in school is through the voucher system...if parents want their children to by taught in that way, then give them a voucher and let them go to a religious school of their choosing, but do not make my child learn religion (or creationism as some would smooth it over)
I taught my daughter to be a free thinker, to make her own decision as it relates to religion. And for my family I did the right thing, because not only has she just graduated college, and is becoming successful, but she's a wonderful, caring human being...that's all any parent can ask for...religious or not.

I'm totally on board with you here Kenny - I've felt that the voucher system is the way to go for a long time. ;)

Mike
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post #115 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
Homes, Sunday School, Summer programs, etc.

By your argument, whatever the majority currently believes should be taught as fact. Interesting.

Sorry, but bad logic here. You're trying to put words in my mouth. What I think is that what the majority believes should have a legit voice as long as they're paying taxes to support this country. I don't think the majority should be squelched or lambasted they way they have been for years by the idealogs. This is a practice that I very badly want to see stopped, because it hurts everyone, and in many cases dumbs down society into a state of sheer ignorance. Im not stating that anything involving religion or God should be taught as fact, but rather as a viewpoint....that happens to be held my that same majority.

IMHO the secular agenda has severely hurt our moral well being. Look around you at the crap going on...girls gone wild videos everywhere, gangsta rap, R rated movies on broadcast TV for kids to see (some of these commercials are insane too), the continual degradation and cheapening of women with regard to sex, societal manners all but gone, etc, etc, etc. I know I sound like a prude here, but I think certain things should be kept within boundries, and that we've long ago overstepped them. ;)

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post #116 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M NEWMAN
I think they have been for decades in a thinly veiled way - it's called a secular agenda, and it's morality is derived by whims, not absolutes.
I see you've been listening to the new pope's speaches. Be that as it may, this is quite a misrepresentation of non-religious based ethics. (As an FYI, what you are saying about ethics was once said about medicine and science.) I would direct you to many good sources, but I'm quite convinced you would not read them.

Just curious, how did you discover those absolutes? The absolutes of, say, Christainity and Buddhism are quite contradictory in many places. How is it that you are able to adjudicate between these "absolutes"?
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post #117 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyG
HEY GUYS...Raster has got to have a smokin' red face over this thread...I just hope we don't give him a heart attack...(edit)by the way, was Terry's question ever answered???



:) :D i,m sure tubesguy rolled around here to see what all the shoutin is all about! .......... :)

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post #118 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Person99
Again, we could go on for days about the viability of this. But, lets just handle the simple aspect of this. For it not to be pushing a religion (or more specifically, a particular religion), you would have to teach unsubstatiated creation myths from other religions also. I don't see you advocating our youngsters get taught the creation stores from the Shinto or Hindu religions.
I don't either, but then they're not the majority in this country, and our law system and moral code weren't based on Hinduism or Shinto either.... ;)

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Originally Posted by Person99
BTW, voting fraud does happen. Secondly, no matter what your viewpoint about the exit polls, there have been many acedemic papers written about this in statistical circles because the error rate of exit polls is historically about .4%. The 2004 election is quite an anamoly and I would expect you know that given all the research you claim to do. The topic of many of these papers is the fact that no explaination put forward yet actually accounts for the error. There may well be a legitimate reason for it and we don't know it yet. I for one am quite curious to find out the reason for this discrepency. Your intellectual curiousity might not be piqued by such a substantially anamloy--but mine is.

It was, but I just don't see anything that concerning. By the way, it happens on BOTH sides, so if your going to pursue it, then go after everybody. This way, you're not an idealog.

Mike
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post #119 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 10:24 AM
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IMHO the secular agenda has severely hurt our moral well being. Look around you at the crap going on...girls gone wild videos everywhere, gangsta rap, R rated movies on broadcast TV for kids to see (some of these commercials are insane too), the continual degradation and cheapening of women with regard to sex, societal manners all but gone, etc, etc, etc. I know I sound like a prude here, but I think certain things should be kept within boundries, and that we've long ago overstepped them. ;)
No, you're not a prude, you just seem to pine for the old days when the chruches had more power. You know, when women knew their place and could not vote, we had slavery, etc. You are right, we are so morally bankrupt compared to years ago--civil rights (though not yet complete), women's suffrage, et al. What are we thinking? It is pretty easy to look at the past through rose colored glasses.
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post #120 of 313 Old 06-08-2005, 10:32 AM
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.

Just curious, how did you discover those absolutes? The absolutes of, say, Christainity and Buddhism are quite contradictory in many places. How is it that you are able to adjudicate between these "absolutes"?




hey if there are no absolutes then you better let everyone out of jail,because if you take the standard of human behavior away and trash the criminal code which is largely based on the standards found in the bible(ten commandmants, notice they are commandmants not "suggestions") then nobody did anything wrong , your murders, pedophlies, rapists, and any other degenerate are nothing more than misunderstood little darlings who are not responsible for anything and therefore are to be let out which would herald the collapse of society in general .. not a good situation by any standard......

there i,ve said my piece on this subject and i,m out......

behind every successful man is a suprised mother-inlaw......
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