Coming Soon Ultimate HS51 VS Barco Data 808s thread!! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 602 Old 06-23-2005, 06:56 PM
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Sorry, Gary.

I don't think this has a nasty spin yet, but I'll nip my perceived bashing in the bud until you post your assessment of HS51 720p vs 8" CRT.

I'm still rooting for your personal satisfaction and I'll trust your assessment.

But for me... "Take a break Driver 8, it's still a ways away" (name that tune)
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post #92 of 602 Old 06-23-2005, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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No problem Clarence, monday evening it is :), it will arrive mid-day via DHL and will take my till the evening to give a half way decent setup

I will be comparing both pj's at their best, 720p HDMI into the HS51 and Component 1080i into the Barco, Barco will be using my current Petr Transcoder setup

All my sources feature fabulous clean component output and also feature HDMI which I have never tested

-Gary
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post #93 of 602 Old 06-23-2005, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
g70 on ebay for 1000$ with 9000 hour tubes, I don't think that would cut it

so thats:

g70 on ebay 1000$ may go for more, no warranty of any kind, useless 9000 hour tubes
new red tube from Sony 1000$
new green tube Sony 1000$
new blue tube Sony 1000$
shipping for everything 200$

grand total 4200$ or so for a unit with brand new tubes but no warranty

Terry will sell you a g70 with new oem tubes for 4500$

-Gary
So get NEC XG-LC tubes for $700 each. A savings of $900. ;)

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #94 of 602 Old 06-23-2005, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie
So get NEC XG-LC tubes for $700 each. A savings of $900. ;)
He's tired of tinkering remember??? ;)

Cliff
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post #95 of 602 Old 06-23-2005, 07:22 PM
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I dunno. His viewing distance will certainly pull the HS-41 into a more favorable review.
But the last time I got tired of "tinkering", I bought a Panasonic AE-700 brand new. The first day I was like "wow this is great". The second day was more like "not bad" and by the third day I was getting into "I wonder how much I'll lose when I sell this to buy another CRT".
I lost $250 and bought a Marquee 8500 non-LC and was instantly happier, despite the tinkering.
Apparently the HS-51 is only better than the AE700 in terms of contrast (from what I read awhile back somewhere).
But then, my viewing distance was more like 1.7.

Hopefully whatever choice is made, Gary will be happier for it. :)

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #96 of 602 Old 06-23-2005, 07:24 PM
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Btw, I'm still tired of the tinkering but only in the manner of knowing I'm not getting the best of my current XG-LC. I was able to set it up so that the convergence doesn't drift except for every 100 hours around the corners... but I've decided to just pay Doug Baisey the required duckies to get the best (for my money) out of the XG.

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post #97 of 602 Old 06-23-2005, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie
Btw, I'm still tired of the tinkering but only in the manner of knowing I'm not getting the best of my current XG-LC. I was able to set it up so that the convergence doesn't drift except for every 100 hours around the corners... but I've decided to just pay Doug Baisey the required duckies to get the best (for my money) out of the XG.
I did a setup memory tonight at XGA on my 6PG Xtra and boy did it bring me back to my XG days. NEC's are a real tough projector to set up for sure. ESPECIALLY if you dont have point like me right now :^)

After playing with the PG tonight, it really showed me how much my colors are off on my G70 right now. NEC's sure do have nice colors.....

Cliff
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post #98 of 602 Old 06-23-2005, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I don't think that is really his question, but I do find your twisting it interesting. I am curious as to whether you think PCs and/or video cards are at the early adopter stage. If not, why would they have to deliver their "final" technology for Clarence's intersection to happen. Are you claiming that if we get reasonably low cost 1080p digitals that it will mean this market is no longer in the "early adopter" phase? If not, what is it you are predicting about 1080p digitals?
Clearly, a 9" will adjust down with the price of the digital, so it is unlikely that it will every come to pass. I was having fun.

But, PCs and video cards are in a different category due to actual constraints. Higher resolution display chips are just a matter of scaling. No real changes at all. So, the materials cost is not a significant factor, it is the tooling costs. Up above, you've basically said they don't make 1080p yet because for some reason they can't. Well, there are 1600x1200 LCD panels made. 1920x1080 only contains 8% more pixels. Do you somehow think 8% more pixels makes it impossible to manufacture? You can take your exact design for a 1280x720 chip and scale it up not changing pixel size or anything but making the chip physically larger. Making a higher resolution chip is not like needed to invent something to go from black and white to color TV.

I made the claim above that there was not a technological constraint. That is the case. If the constraint is not technological, then what is it? What do you really think it is?

I believe that they have to get their tooling money back and fund research into ways to try to produce black among other things.

When we get 1080p digitals, it will because a manufacturer blinked or they think the market is ready to line their pockets.

Think of a mature technology like CRT direct view TVs. Only three things fueled the purchase of a new TV 10-30 years ago:
1) You moved out of your parents house and needed a TV.
2) You wanted a bigger TV.
3) After 10-20 years of use, your TV broke.

They couldn't afford the research necessary if this was the buying trend of digitals. There is a great book about the market forces in tech and how they impact the development of new technologies. I'll try to look in my library and see if I can find it. It really is worth a read.

Dave
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post #99 of 602 Old 06-23-2005, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
I did a setup memory tonight at XGA on my 6PG Xtra and boy did it bring me back to my XG days. NEC's are a real tough projector to set up for sure. ESPECIALLY if you dont have point like me right now :^)

After playing with the PG tonight, it really showed me how much my colors are off on my G70 right now. NEC's sure do have nice colors.....

Cliff
Aw c'mon you guys it's not that hard. You don't need a point board - it's nice to have when your pushing the raster width hard, but otherwise unnecessary for a reasonable setup.

Do you know how to pick the different sides for keystone and pincushion? And you know to use key and pin together to converge the corners - balance error with key, pull the ends straight with pin.

Cliff the tubes are the same, and the G70 colour filtered C elements are the same as a NEC XGLC (I think). The colours should be the same as an "NEC"

Mark

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post #100 of 602 Old 06-23-2005, 11:29 PM
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One thing that should be stated is that there shouldn't be much drifting. According to some other forum members, you need to replace some bad caps. I believe Tinman and some others did this and now there pjs performance is rock solid.

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post #101 of 602 Old 06-23-2005, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
But, PCs and video cards are in a different category due to actual constraints. Higher resolution display chips are just a matter of scaling. No real changes at all. So, the materials cost is not a significant factor, it is the tooling costs.
You claim it is different than video cards, so please tell us how the materials cost is significant there. I think people who work on these display chips/panels would find your claim that there are "no real changes at all" to be rather interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
Up above, you've basically said they don't make 1080p yet because for some reason they can't.
There you go again with your "basically". I never said any such thing. I don't see how anybody could take statements like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
In other words, if it was really as easy as you seem to think then "about the Benjamins" would have probably meant releasing an LCD projector with 1080p.
as claiming "they can't". Not even close. Especially when Epson already makes 1080p panels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
Well, there are 1600x1200 LCD panels made. 1920x1080 only contains 8% more pixels. Do you somehow think 8% more pixels makes it impossible to manufacture?
How could you even read what I wrote and come away thinking I said it was impossible? You claimed they were bilking their customers by not putting 1920x1080 panels in this projector. Have you ever been involved in any design decisions for a real product? There are a lot of important decisions to be made and those who don't realize the repurcusions of decisions would be bound to screw things up if they don't have anybody there who can figure out how things flow downhill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
You can take your exact design for a 1280x720 chip and scale it up not changing pixel size or anything but making the chip physically larger. Making a higher resolution chip is not like needed to invent something to go from black and white to color TV. ?
So, you just make the chip bigger and pop it in the same projector, huh? Do you think about the paths the light will take now that you have a bigger panel? Do you think about the supporting chips for driving the extra lines and pixels? Do you consider the defect rate for bigger chips and the extra costs involved? How about the software (including service software)? The people who work on these things do.

TI has been working on making their mirrors smaller partially to get the costs down for making 1080p chips, because the sizes obviously have some bearing on their production. In that case, people who have dealt with silicon defect rates and how many good chips can be had at different sizes know how larger sizes can decrease the number of good chips per wafer significantly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
I made the claim above that there was not a technological constraint. That is the case. If the constraint is not technological, then what is it? What do you really think it is?
I don't work on LCD panels. But I do know that a lot of people who don't know much about technology stand on the side and act like things are a slam dunk. I think there are plenty of things you are ignoring from technological hurdles standpoints. Something doesn't have to be impossible to be economically unfeasible at a certain time or just not make sense compared to a different path.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
I believe that they have to get their tooling money back and fund research into ways to try to produce black among other things.
Their jobs are to make the most money. And if 1080p LCD for the HS51 was as easy as you seem to think for Sony then they could have sold the same number of units at much higher prices and made more money. Getting "their tooling money back and fund research" are not good excuses for taking a lower overall profit path and good business people know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
When we get 1080p digitals, it will because a manufacturer blinked or they think the market is ready to line their pockets.
We already have 1080p digitals. I believe one is about $85k and there is a D4 1080p LCD projector from Fujitsu for $25k. That projector was basically designed for those panels. I believe the new D5 1080p LCD panels will be the same size as the 720p panels, which should be an advantage for projector designers/manufacturers with current 720p Epson LCD designs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
There is a great book about the market forces in tech and how they impact the development of new technologies. I'll try to look in my library and see if I can find it. It really is worth a read.
There are reasons to hold back technology you could easily do when the long term profits will be higher by doing this. I touched on that with my mention that Sony is not the 600 lb gorilla in this market. When you are fighting it out with others and having to keep your prices reasonably low because of it (something TI had not faced much before the last year, but Sony LCD has) then that is not the time to hold back technology that could just be done easily and slapped in. The highest profits often come from beating your competition to a market and getting a good premium for some time. My take on the market is that this one is very easy to figure out. If Sony could have put 1080p in the HS51 in volumes easily and for close to the same cost to them then they were idiots for not doing it because their jobs are to maximize profits and they could have made a lot more money by doing that instead of waiting for Epson to get to volume 1080p LCD first.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #102 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 01:13 AM
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Great, now we have another CRT vs. digital thread BEFORE we've even had the bloody shootout.....

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post #103 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_A_W
Aw c'mon you guys it's not that hard. You don't need a point board - it's nice to have when your pushing the raster width hard, but otherwise unnecessary for a reasonable setup.

Do you know how to pick the different sides for keystone and pincushion? And you know to use key and pin together to converge the corners - balance error with key, pull the ends straight with pin.

Cliff the tubes are the same, and the G70 colour filtered C elements are the same as a NEC XGLC (I think). The colours should be the same as an "NEC"

Mark

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Yes they should be, but my G70 needs to be calibrated (put new tubes in it).

Cliff
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post #104 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 07:01 AM
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Gary,

I know this is a bit OT for the shootout, but there has been a running tone in this thread that you are sick of the CRT FP and want something else. Clarences comment about your room size brings up an interesting point.

Basically, with these assumptions:
- You have a smallish room that requires a smaller screen
- You prefer "back row" seating (2x width or more)
- You prefer film playback at 60 Hz
- You watch mostly HD content

Given these, why don't you do a RPTV based home theater. In your price range, you'd probably have to do CRT RPTV, but not nearly the tweaking of the FP. As I see it, you would get:
- Excellent picture from 2.25x screen width back
- Your seating would be able to move away from the back wall substantially improving your sound field.

Because of the 45 degree room angle that would be behind you, you might have to treat it, but it seems like a win-win.

Dave
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post #105 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 07:14 AM
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Sorry Gary but I'm beginning to doubt the setup of your Barco. You say here that it is setup to the max or something. But in another thread on the Digital forum you claim that you need to tweak the convergence every couple of days. I'm sorry but I'm as anal as the next guy with convergence and my old XG needed tweaked about twice a year. This usually coincided with the weather change. In between tweaks I could see no convergence drift from my couch even using a pair of binoculars. You also said in the other thread that it takes at least an hour for your Barco to warmup. Again, my XG was professionally setup by one of the best but in less than 20 minutes the convergence was spot on. I now have no doubt that we will be reading a glowing HS51 review next week.
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post #106 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 07:52 AM
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Debate about market strategies is OT, so I won't keep it going forever. We may be talking past each other I think. I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
Let's face it, there is not a technological limitation keeping them from making 1920x1080 LCD panels. It's all about the Benjamins!
I said there was no technological limitation. So, my point is that there are other limitations which would distill to cost ("Benjamins") or marketing strategy ("Benjamins"). You responded with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
But if 1080p LCD was simple for them then I can't think of any reason that Sony would have purposely withheld 1080p LCD last year when the HS51 was introduced. Why wouldn't they crush their competition with it if it was this easy?
Since I only mentioned technological limitations, I took your comment to be addressing that and responded to that. Perhaps you agree with me that since the chips are made and the PJ's are redesigned every year anyway, there is not a technological limitation, but something else. You suggest that it is not marketing at all, so I believe I am correct in assuming you think it is a cost issue (which I adressed with tooling and such).

Yes, 1600x1200 and 1080p LCD PJs cost alot now, but probably because of supply and demand. Until they are sure they can sell alot of these, you don't put it on the market at a low price because it is not financially viable.

There is another side to how clever Sony and others may be. Right now, considering the whole TV market, the market penetration of single chip DLP (or any digital tech) is still very low. If anectodal evidence with my friends and I are any indication, single chip DLP will fatigue about 10-15% of viewers. Think when people really start buying digital TVs and the fatigue thing get's out to the general conusmer. How do you know if you are effected or not? Better be safe! Joe and Jane consumer will walk into the store with the "I've heard it is really bad to watch a DLP, I don't want one of those!"

Hey, I've said it before and I'm sincere. When we are in the brave new world of beautiful digitals in X years, and we all are happy with our easy to use high quality digital PJs that will last us for 10 years with no need for replacement, we will have the early adopters to thank. If it were not for these guys willing to burn $2000-5000+ per year on continual upgrading, the research required to make these great digitals would not be funded. So, forgive me if I'm a little smug since I've decided to reap my benefit on the wallets of others.

Dave
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post #107 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 08:03 AM
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Hey Darin
I've been watching this thread with interest as I'm sure many 8" owners (no pun intended) have been.
I'm wondering how the HS51 stacks up against the Panny 7000, in your opinion of course. I've seen the 7000 but can't get a preview of the HS51.
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post #108 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GScott
But in another thread on the Digital forum you claim that you need to tweak the convergence every couple of days. I'm sorry but I'm as anal as the next guy with convergence and my old XG needed tweaked about twice a year.
I'm not an expert, but it could be bad mechanical setup OR weak electronics. You've generally got to do a fair amount of electronic adjustment on the Barco because there are no pots for height or position of green.

That said, my 1208/2 takes about 15-20 minutes to warm up and settle in to convergence, then I'm about as good as you. But, I don't discount the fact that some might fight a 15-20 minute wait before the movie objectionable. My wife has become used to the drill now. We start the PJ, then go make the popcorn, do bathroom breaks, etc. By the time we really get settled down to watch the movie, its been about 15 minutes anyway.
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post #109 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 09:01 AM
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Shades of the Guy Kuo/darinP XG1352/Sharp 11k shootout of a couple of years ago, except in this case we are questioning the CRT setup before the verdict, instead of after. :)
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post #110 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys My Barco is setup to near perfection

My mechanical setup is so good that I hardly even needed to touch the convergence to get everything dialed in, my rasters are centered with a ruler and all 3 are perfectly centered left to right and top to bottom, my Barco has the most detailed sharp image that I have ever seen from a CRT unit, I have never seen or owned a 9" unit

the pj is table mounted and thus it is measured and is 100% true to the screen in every direction

my Barco still after this perfect setup experience's static convergence shifting, in other words the whole grid of that particular color moves slightly out of alignment

My Barco came from Curt, so it was checked over very well, power supply and all

this is basically how every CRT device I have ever owned has acted, front and rear units

we are not talking about total convergence slippage, we are talking about 1/8th of a inch every 2 weeks, this is considered normal CRT operation to me

My Grain focus has been worked on for weeks on each color, the grain is perfect on each color,

My pj with what I consider a fabulous setup, takes around 1 hour to warm up, for my convergence to come together and the lenses to heat up to the exact temp where my optical grain comes in perfect, thats just the way it is, sometimes it takes over a hour, and this is playing video, not having the pj sit on a black screen

I am a veteran of CRT units and would put my 8" CRT against any calibration out there, I have scan lines visible at the screen on 790p in 16:9 mode, I have scan lines plainly visible on 1080i at over 2x the screen width

-Gary
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post #111 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Dave I have very much considered one of the Mitsubishi 73" 9 inch CRT rear projection units, rear projection would work great in my room and I have looked at them alot lately before I decided to try the HS51

-Gary
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post #112 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
my Barco still after this perfect setup experiences static convergence shifting, in other words the whole grid of that particaulr color moves slightly out of alignment.

My Barco came from curt, so it was checked over very well, power supply and all
You minimize the entire raster shifting like this by setting it up properly and minimizing electronic adjustments as much as possible. It if *still* drifts then various e-caps are getting old and starting to drift a bit simply because the PJ is old.

This was my problem as well. Had my (very old) BG800 set up perfectly with minimal electronic adjustment. like GScott, I'm anal about this as well.. My entire raster was shifting slightly out of alignment just about every time I turned the damned thing on. Two years ago I replaced every single low-voltage electrolytic cap in my power supply, along with about 30-40 other high capacitance caps in the rest of the unit. Since then I (like GScott) I only need to do shift the B & G rasters one click at twice a year (as the seasons change).

Prior to replacing the caps, the unit still worked fine, it was just drift happy.

Now my PJ takes 15-20 mins to warm up instead of 1 hour (and it was still drift happy after that hour). We usually just turn it on and start watching. By the time the actual movie starts (after putting in the disc, getting through the menus, etc) it's usually 10 mins into warmup.

If I have AVS'ers coming over to watch something then I'll turn it on a good 30 mins early t make sure it's really perfect. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
My Barco came from Curt, so it was checked over very well, power supply and all.
No tech (Curt included) will spend the hours and hours to replace e-caps that still work correctly, but just may not be as 'stable' as new ones, just like a used car salesman is not going to make your car work *exactly* like new.

Kal
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post #113 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 09:43 AM
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My XG is one of those "seems to be impossible to 100% converge, and drifts a bit" projectors. Since it's only about 6-7 yrs old you wouldn't think the caps would be baked already, but it does have over 10k hours on the chassis. I really dread the thought of pulling a zillion caps out of the thing -- am I more likely to fry something than to improve the final results? -- but it is really tempting. I just don't want to tear into it with no clue of the best caps to attack. Maybe one of these days I'll get myself an ESR meter and go at it. Or maybe I'll just keep ignoring the very minor fringing (only noticeable on sharp white text)... :D
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post #114 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Person99
We may be talking past each other I think.
Possibly.

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I said there was no technological limitation.
If a CEO asks me if there are any technological limitations and I know that there will be lower yields and it will take x amount of time to redesign a different portion of the system to accomodate the change he wants, then I will mention those things in that vein. I do consider chip/panel yields and volumes of good chips/panels to be a technological limitation. You may not.

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Perhaps you agree with me that since the chips are made and the PJ's are redesigned every year anyway, there is not a technological limitation, but something else.
I disagree with you that the PJs are redesigned every year in this context. One of the reasons they can come out every year is because they don't redesign everything, but pick and choose what to change each year. For instance, the HS20 is something like 1366x768 and the HS51 is 1280x720, yet the evidence seems to suggest that the HS51 uses the same panels or panels with the same resolution and just doesn't use part of them. If an engineer told you that they couldn't accomodate a particular change and release on time would you consider that a technological limitation? Okay, maybe he says that if you give him y number of people he can do it. I guess you would say that this is just a cost limitation and not a technological limitation even if the current team couldn't do it on time, but IMO it all goes back to your claim that they are bilking people out of their money by not putting 1080p panels in and then, "Higher resolution display chips are just a matter of scaling. No real changes at all."

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You suggest that it is not marketing at all, so I believe I am correct in assuming you think it is a cost issue (which I adressed with tooling and such).
You tooling comment definitely does not address the extra engineering to redesign portions of a projector that wouldn't have been redesigned otherwise or the costs of lower yields.

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Until they are sure they can sell alot of these, you don't put it on the market at a low price because it is not financially viable.
I never said Sony would have to put them out at a low price. They could have charged more than the HS51 and sold just as many though. That they could have been sure of. Why would you say it isn't "financially viable" if it is no real work at all and just tooling?

Quote:
There is another side to how clever Sony and others may be. Right now, considering the whole TV market, the market penetration of single chip DLP (or any digital tech) is still very low. If anectodal evidence with my friends and I are any indication, single chip DLP will fatigue about 10-15% of viewers. Think when people really start buying digital TVs and the fatigue thing get's out to the general conusmer. How do you know if you are effected or not? Better be safe! Joe and Jane consumer will walk into the store with the "I've heard it is really bad to watch a DLP, I don't want one of those!"
I don't believe this is a real big issue for TI's sales right now, but the fact that they have been working on making it better (I believe some of the RPTVs have 6x wheels instead of 5x and there is talk of new colors on colorwheels that may help rainbows), it wouldn't make a lot of sense for Sony to hold out giving TI time to fix the issue enough that they can't exploit it much at all later. All the more reason for Sony to strike while the iron is hot instead of letting Epson get to volume 1080p LCD first (if it was a slam dunk and only tooling costs). And they let TI get to 1080p DLP RPTVs before they got to 1080p LCD RPTVs and that is where a lot of the money is. That doesn't sound very clever on Sony's part if it was this easy either.

I am curious whether you would agree with statements like the following:
Quote:
The CRT builders have been bilking customers for years. Instead of 9" units they could have been providing 10", 11", 12", etc. units. That is just a matter of scaling, so no real changes at all.
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Originally Posted by Person99
So, forgive me if I'm a little smug since I've decided to reap my benefit on the wallets of others.
Smug is one thing. Accusations are a different thing IMO.

--Darin

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post #115 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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That is some interesting news Kal, Damn that sounds exactly like my data 808s, it was manufactured in june 1997 and has only 5000 total chassis hours

one hour warmup and static drifting convergence, boy thats sounds all too fimiliar :)

I will have to look into this, kal did you replace each cap with a exact per spec replacement that you removed, in other words slapped the same cap in there only a new one ??

Gosh I never expected 4 pages worth of replies before I ever got the unit :D

-Gary
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post #116 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Energeezer
Hey Darin
I've been watching this thread with interest as I'm sure many 8" owners (no pun intended) have been.
I'm wondering how the HS51 stacks up against the Panny 7000, in your opinion of course. I've seen the 7000 but can't get a preview of the HS51.
Do you mean the 700 or the 7000? I have the Panasonic 7000u, but it is a 3 chip DLP with about 1800-5000 lumens, maybe 3500:1 on/off CR and 400:1 ANSI CR. The Panasonic AE700 is the LCD that competes with the HS51. I saw them both at CEDIA last year and preferred the HS51 because it looked like the one with the better contrast ratio to me, but they were in different setups. After helping Kris Deering setup his HS51 I am sure that the AE700 couldn't do contrast like that one. But it sounds like he got lucky with his unit as he swapped it at one point (to get different firmware) and the new one had worse looking contrast, so he swapped back to his original HS51.

The HS51 and AE700 are fairly similar with the AE700 having the SmoothScreen technology to reduce screendoor and the HS51 having better CR. It still isn't CRT on/off CR, but I believe somewhat better than the AE700.

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Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
I will have to look into this
Maybe every CRT owner should start a thread like this. My experience is that people get the most help with improving their CRT if they mention that they might go digital. ;)

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post #117 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Darin I thought that Kris said that the original firmware/board HS51 was sharper and has worse SDE and that the newer firmware/board HS51 was softer, had less SDE and had a much better CR, I have found him saying this a few times??

I found it, post # 4408 by Kris in the HS51 thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...page=147&pp=30

-Gary
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post #118 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
Darin I thought that Kris said that the original firmware HS51 was sharper and has worse SDE and that the newer firmware HS51 was softer, had less SDE and had a much better CR, I have found him saying this a few times??

found it post # 4408 by Kris in the HS51 thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...page=147&pp=30
My "new one" was probably a little misleading, since it was just the one that he had swapped for as opposed to his original unit. I think the swap he did was to get the older firmware, but when he saw worse CR he swapped back to his unit that had the newer firmware. The differences in CR could also be related to more than the firmware version and this is just one example though.

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post #119 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
That is some interesting news Kal, Damn that sounds exactly like my data 808s, it was manufactured in june 1997 and has only 5000 total chassis hours

one hour warmup and static drifting convergence, boy thats sounds all too fimiliar :)

I will have to look into this, kal did you replace each cap with a exact per spec replacement that you removed, in other words slapped the same cap in there only a new one ??
I'm surprised it's drifting like this if it's a 1997 model (fairly late) and only 5000 hours. It shouldn't be doing that. My BG800 has 24000 hours on it and it's from 1990, so no surprises that some of the e-caps were in less then ideal condition.

The caps I replaced with replaced with good quality Panasonic's of the same MFD value, but 105'C instead of 85'C and usually one step higher in voltage rating too (so if the original cap was 16V I'd put in a 25V, for example).

Kal
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post #120 of 602 Old 06-24-2005, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan
Shades of the Guy Kuo/darinP XG1352/Sharp 11k shootout of a couple of years ago, except in this case we are questioning the CRT setup before the verdict, instead of after. :)
No, no, no! The implication of this statement is dead wrong. Gary is reporting behavior that is not correct, so the possible reasons are being pointed out.

If I were in a Porsche club and I said I was going to compare my perfectly tuned 911 with a Corvette, and also reported that my 911 has some stuttering when I floor it, other Porsche-philes would correctly point out that either:
1) I didn't have it tuned as well as I thought
2) There is a problem with the equipment independent of my tuning (perhaps a bad fuel pump).

Before you posted this, I said that it could be either. I have no reason to doubt Gray's set up and it seems that Kal has hit it on the head and it is indeed a problem with the Barco.

You could argue that it is not worth the pain to change all the caps and that adds to the high maintenance that Gary is complaining about and that would be valid. That is Darin's point all the time, there is more to the buying decision that PQ and value (cost/benefit ratio).

Dave
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