Coming Soon Ultimate HS51 VS Barco Data 808s thread!! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 04:06 PM
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Looks like the HS51 is in trouble. :)
From the HS51 thread in the < $3.5k forum.

Quote:
I just received myHS51 today and I have a few questions for you guys

mainly about black level

I am coming from a CRT to this digital, I have calibrated for all settings given in the various thread's around here including Kris's setting's

when I have a totally black scene from a movie up on the screen, my screen is lite up a hazy gray color, 100% as if you take the brightness control on your on tv set and jack it up to 100%, you get no blacks

is this as good as the blacks get on this unit?? if so it is not a keeper over my CRT that gives black like you wouldn't believe

I am obviously foing something wrong because no one could deal with this black level I have

being this is my first digital, I though I would ask

-Gary
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post #182 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan
Looks like the HS51 is in trouble. :)
From the HS51 thread in the < $3.5k forum.
Something is not right. The ones I've seen were bad, but not THAT bad.
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post #183 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan
Looks like the HS51 is in trouble. :)
From the HS51 thread in the < $3.5k forum.
That would be the "lamp factor" he is speaking of that I warned him about.

Cliff
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post #184 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
That would be the "lamp factor" he is speaking of that I warned him about.
It is as simple as on/off CR. Whether lamp or not. BTW: Would halos be the "tube factor" then? :)

It will be interesting to see how this turns out. I have mentioned many times that I think more on/off CR is better (which is one reason I like to modify my projectors), but the HS51 should have better on/off CR than commercial cinemas in the vast majority of cases (I think there are some exceptions). Given that, either something is wrong or "no one could deal with (the) black level" of real film presentations. But if the whites are real bright then this is where an ND filter could help.

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post #185 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 04:32 PM
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It's got to be something simple like the iris setting. Or the preset contrast modes. (A coworker bought a dPJ last month and one of the contrast settings was called "CRT".)

Try it with the neutral density filter to lower the grays to dark gray, then use a gray screen to make the dark grays a little darker, then use a high power screen to boost the light colors back up a little, then calibrate to try to get everything watchable, then just get used to the gray whites.

Or try it with some ambient light. Can you paint your walls beige and change your carpet?

I saw 6 nice dPJ's last month, including the Qualia, the 11k/12k, and a couple of $3500 leaders, but all of them took longer than 1.5 seconds to dismiss.

Watch a few movies. See if you can adjust.

I at least want to find out if the SDE bothers you as much as 1080i scanlines.

The corner focus is pretty impressive I bet.
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post #186 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
It is as simple as on/off CR. Whether lamp or not. BTW: Would halos be the "tube factor" then? :)

It will be interesting to see how this turns out. I have mentioned many times that I think more on/off CR is better (which is one reason I like to modify my projectors), but the HS51 should have better on/off CR than commercial cinemas in the vast majority of cases (I think there are some exceptions). Given that, either something is wrong or "no one could deal with (the) black level" of real film presentations. But if the whites are real bright then this is where an ND filter could help.

--Darin
To this day Darin, I do not see halos on any of the CRT's I have owned. What should I be looking for??

Cliff
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post #187 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
To this day Darin, I do not see halos on any of the CRT's I have owned. What should I be looking for??
I was mostly joking. First of all, I don't think you should really go looking for them if they don't bother you. But second of all, I don't think they are really much of a bother on G70s on other LC units like that. It is the non-LC units where they are more of a concern and so I could have said "non-LC tube factor", but it didn't sound as good. :)

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post #188 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence
The corner focus is pretty impressive I bet.
That's definitely a NO CONTEST.......

Cliff
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post #189 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I was mostly joking. First of all, I don't think you should really go looking for them if they don't bother you. But second of all, I don't think they are really much of a bother on G70s on other LC units like that. It is the non-LC units where they are more of a concern and so I could have said "non-LC tube factor", but it didn't sound as good. :)

--Darin
:D :cool: :D :cool:
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post #190 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 04:44 PM
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I have a BD808s,and i cant see any halos on my projector.

Sony G70.
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post #191 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
But if the whites are real bright then this is where an ND filter could help.
That's a positive spin. I don't think he's complaining about the bright whites. I thought ND was to make the "digital blacks" into dark gray instead of bright gray.


Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
[corner focus] definitely a NO CONTEST...
I think that every time I see a PowerPoint presentation on a dPJ. I've got to admit though, MP got more corner focus out of my M8000 at my Open House than I ever though possible... even the INHD logo has scanlines from 20'.
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post #192 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
But if the whites are real bright then this is where an ND filter could help.
That's a positive spin. I don't think he's complaining about the bright whites. I thought ND was to make the "digital blacks" into dark gray instead of bright gray.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
[corner focus] definitely a NO CONTEST...
I think that every time I see a PowerPoint presentation on a dPJ. I've got to admit though, MP got more corner focus out of my M8000 at my Open House than I ever thought possible... even the INHD logo has scanlines from 20'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
To this day Darin, I do not see halos on any of the CRT's I have owned. What should I be looking for??

Cliff
I notice them most during ACON on my Marquee. The 4" green bouncing square is surrounded by a very faint halo about 1' in diameter. But I don't recall seeing them in a movie scene.
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post #193 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
But if the whites are real bright then this is where an ND filter could help.
That's a positive spin. I don't think he's complaining about the bright whites. I thought ND was to make the "digital blacks" into dark gray instead of bright gray.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
[corner focus] definitely a NO CONTEST...
I think that every time I see a PowerPoint presentation on a dPJ. I've got to admit though, MP got more corner focus out of my M8000 at my Open House than I ever thought possible... even the INHD logo has scanlines from 20'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
To this day Darin, I do not see halos on any of the CRT's I have owned. What should I be looking for??

Cliff
I notice them most during ACON on my Marquee. The 4" green bouncing square is surrounded by a very faint halo about 1' in diameter. But I don't recall seeing them in a movie scene.

Gary, is the HS51 fan as quiet as the review indicated?
Also, you mentioned you got a killler deal on this. Was it refurb by any chance (e.g., maybe someone else returned it as a bad unit with an obvious problem)
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post #194 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence
That's a positive spin. I don't think he's complaining about the bright whites. I thought ND was to make the "digital blacks" into dark gray instead of bright gray.
I wouldn't say it is a positive spin as much as pointing out that the reality is that it is the on/off CR that matters and if the whole range is high then it can be brought down. The ND can be used for multiple things, but if his whites were twice as white on the digital than on the CRT then I think using the ND before doing much comparing of black levels would make sense. He doesn't have to be complaining about bright whites for that to be the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence
I notice them most during ACON on my Marquee. The 4" green bouncing square is surrounded by a very faint halo about 1' in diameter. But I don't recall seeing them in a movie scene.
I'm not sure what ACON is, but halos can also be encoded into the material and so the projector shouldn't always be blamed. And I think some of us see more halos than others with the way our eyes are, whether there are halos coming off the screen or not.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #195 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
But if the whites are real bright then this is where an ND filter could help.
That's a positive spin. I don't think he's complaining about the bright whites. I thought ND was to make the "digital blacks" into dark gray instead of bright gray.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
[corner focus] definitely a NO CONTEST...
I think that every time I see a PowerPoint presentation on a dPJ. I've got to admit though, MP got more corner focus out of my M8000 at my Open House than I ever thought possible... even the INHD logo has scanlines from 20'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overclkr
To this day Darin, I do not see halos on any of the CRT's I have owned. What should I be looking for??

Cliff
I notice them most during ACON on my Marquee. The 4" green bouncing square is surrounded by a very faint halo about 1' in diameter. But I don't recall seeing them in a movie scene.

Gary, is the HS51 fan as quiet as the review indicated?
Also, you mentioned you got a killler deal on this. Was it refurb by any chance (e.g., maybe someone else returned it as a bad unit with an obvious problem)

Well, I'm about to watch Episode IV with my 9-year-old (my oldest son, not my Marquee... it's 10th birthday is this month!)
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post #196 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I'm not sure what ACON is, but halos can also be encoded into the material and so the projector shouldn't always be blamed.
ACON is Electrohome's "Automatic CONvergence"... it projects a series of RGB squares around the screen, then uses a camera sensor to align them.

So only on a full-brightness small green square against a solid black background have I ever noticed a halo.

Um, ooops... sorry, "solid black backgound" is another term that you d!%!#@| guys might not comprehend. ;) :D
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post #197 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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First let me say my unit was brand new in the box, not refurbished brand new and it has also received the update from Sony

Basically to get right down to it, as you all know I sit 2x from my 69"" wide screen

This unit not even going to begin to cut it for any seriously set up CRT users, any user that says this thing can even come close to a CRT setup, needs their CRT properly calibrated

what we have with a HS51 at even 2x distance is a digital image that makes me wanna puke, I am not even going to consider black level in this comparison because there is no black level on the HS51

mind you the HS51 would please many viewers the world over, it has and will continue to, same with the owner of my HS51 who will get a heck of a deal at 2300$ shipped

this compariosn is so one sided that I have basically told you everything you need to know

this is one suprising thing, my Barco Data 808s with 6000 hour worn tubes kills the sony in sharpness and picture detail

my hs51 was given a 3 hour calibration, greyscale via service menu, brightness contrast you name it, everything was set per spec of the gurus in the HS51 threads

one finding is that the HS51 has very good colors, better than my current Barco

there is not one factor that even makes the HS51 come close in picture quality to my Barco CRT, which now I realize how well setup it is

Guys sorry for not giving a very in deptth review, I figured that the many many users tellig me how great the HS51 was over even say a 8" CRT that it would be close, sorry it is not even close enough to give any decent writings or even thoughts on a comparison

basically the HS51 is destoyed by my Barco Data 808s in every category but Colors, CRT's are not for everyone and lots hell even most would be pleased, I am not the average guy, I am a very demanding videophile and the HS51 has failed me miserablly

Well it's back to the old CRT grindstone, I am now on a quest to find a perfectly functioning 8" LC unit to replace my Barco Data 808s

boy I am so surprised that this turned out so one-sided, and let me say this, if you still gave the HS51 my barco's black level, it would still be a no contest situation

shoot any kinds of questions or concerns, I have viewed around 3 hours worth of material on the HS51, it is now boxed up and ready for sale

here is also a reply concerning black leve i just posted in the HS51 thread:

Guys Black level has been the deal breaker for me on this unit, it didn't take long for me to find out, my unit was calibrated for over 3 hours via all information in this thread, everything including greyscale, everything is set correctly

while mixed scene stuff looked great, when it came time for black level with entirely dark stuff my CRT has ruined me I am affraid

I just realized how important black level is too me and sadly the HS51 is not going to deliver the goods for me in that area

well that was quick, back to my 200lb beasts, I was so set on trying a digital for a while


-Gary
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post #198 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 05:48 PM
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Were the SDE gaps better or worse than your 1080i scanline gaps?

Was the HS51 fan noise less than your Barco? (the review compared it to the fanless DWIN).

I know your Barco is sweet if you didn't drool over the dPJ's corner focus. HTPC desktop icons are the best benchmark there... if you can read icon text, you know you've got it right.
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post #199 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 05:49 PM
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I hate to say I told you so, But brother I told you so!

I was totally disgusted with this LCD on the Sony 80" black screen.

I just goes to show all the talk of how wonderful this thing is to those that have never seen or owned a well setup CRT

David

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post #200 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 05:51 PM
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Gary, although a 8" LC would be cheaper, i would really try to stretch to a 9"LC.
The Marquee 9500LC seems to be your best bet.
The 9"LC will at least reduce the halos/washout, and give you better contrast and resolution to boot.

As for your review..
I cannot comment on the HS51, but i wouldn't have swapped for LCD either.
That doesn't mean all digitals are as bad, but at least you tried it before commenting etc.
The S3 was the first digital i saw that made me want to switch.
You will probably accused of failing to set it up properly.
But isn't ease of setup supposed to be one of digitals plus points?!

Never mind, you tried.
At least, it will help during those little niggles you were suffering before!

Ps
The ONLY downside to your findings, will be all the "told you so" posts.
Yet most of these comments will be from people who accused you of already declaring the HS51 the winner before it even arrived! :D

I can resist everything....except temptation
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post #201 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA

BUT, I predict, in the end, the 'blacks' will win the day and the Barco will remain the PJ of choice. It's not just the 'fade to black' either. It's the detail in the blacks (known to photo folks as "shadow detail") that separates CRTs from all comers. The king still has three eyes.
Do I get to say "I told you so"?

BTW, there's (3) 1209's up for auction on the Bay...out Texas way.
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post #202 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence
ACON is Electrohome's "Automatic CONvergence"... it projects a series of RGB squares around the screen, then uses a camera sensor to align them.

So only on a full-brightness small green square against a solid black background have I ever noticed a halo.

Um, ooops... sorry, "solid black backgound" is another term that you d!%!#@| guys might not comprehend. ;) :D
That's wierd big dog. I never noticed that on the minty 8000 I owned, even when using Acon (which is a kick ass option if I may add).

Maybe this is a problem with higher hour CRT's???????

Cliff
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post #203 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA
BTW, there's (3) 1209's up for auction on the Bay...out Texas way.
Big mouth!! :eek:
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post #204 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 05:57 PM
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Wow!
A "told you so" post as i typed!!! :D

I can resist everything....except temptation
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post #205 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 05:57 PM
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You don't want those- SEOS units

David

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post #206 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
well that was quick, back to my 200lb beasts, I was so set on trying a digital for a while

-Gary
Dude, go get yourself an XGLC or a G70 and be done with it. I've been through this already and came to the same conclusion. I just kept quiet on your thread to see what the outcome would be. A quick look to your left at my Avatar will give you my opinion :^).

That "lamp factor" is awesome isn't it??

If you have the cash to spend, I think a good 9" will be your projector of choice for years to come........

BTW, what about the screendoor????

Cliff
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post #207 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 06:00 PM
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Halos are very noticeable on my 9PG Xtra displaying things like the setup menus against a solid black background, but on actual video material seem to be unnoticeable. I have never watched a single thing yet where I said to myself if it weren't for that halo....

On my non-LC CRT, the absolute level of black and on/off contrast are so visually satisfying I think that more than makes up for the loss in ANSI contrast ratio. CRT performance in low APL scenes, LC or non-LC is stunning as far as I am concerned, and still ahead of all digitals.

I like digitals for there benfits, too, and one day am thinking of expanding my theater space to a very large screen with something Qualia-like when the price becomes right. But for now, I love even my 7inch non-LC Crt.

As far as LCD's are concerned, other that black levels, I have never once seen an LCD that did not exhibit all or some combo of vertical banding, fixed pattern noise, and the so called "scanline" or refresh artifact. All three are quite distracting, and are all deal-killers. I have seen most every widescreen LCD produced, too. I would be curious to see how the HS51 stacks up in this regard. It is one that I haven't seen yet.
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post #208 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 06:02 PM
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I will quote one of the staunchest CRT supporters on this :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Person99
Something is not right. The ones I've seen were bad, but not THAT bad.
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post #209 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fulabeer
That doesn't mean all digitals are as bad, but at least you tried it before commenting etc.
The S3 was the first digital i saw that made me want to switch.
You will probably accused of failing to set it up properly.
But isn't ease of setup supposed to be one of digitals plus points?!

Never mind, you tried.
At least, it will help during those little niggles you were suffering before!

Ps
The ONLY downside to your findings, will be all the "told you so" posts.
Yet most of these comments will be from people who accused you of already declaring the HS51 the winner before it even arrived! :D
He researched the options and found a praised performer at a higer than average price point. I'm sure there will be several d!%!#@| owners who would respond that their particular unit would beat Gary's current or even next CRT, but I think he chose a better than (supposedly) comparable competitor.

I've never seen the HS51, but the hype is pretty good.

But if you can accept the weight of a CRT, then the fun of setting it up is just a bonus. And knowing that the amazing picture will only get better the next time you dink with it is what makes it addictive. Much more fun that knowing that any d!%!#@| purchase will be surpassed in 6 months at a lower price.

Gary, you've got to at least emphasize (before darin reminds us) that the HS51 hooked up out of the box to all of your HD sources.
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post #210 of 602 Old 06-27-2005, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I will go for one of those Zenith 1200x units from curt, sor something along those lines, i can't afford a 9" unit, that is why I tried the HS51 in the first place

the SDE was massive at even 2x viewing distance Clarence, 300% worse than scan lines at 1080i

mixed scene black level was better than the Barco, I see what folks say is wrong with 8" Non-LC units, but a fade to black and the opening space scenes from Star Wars(just black space no ships) on the HS51 left me in tears

yep hdmi cable from all HDTV sources right into the HS51, boy was that feeling nice :)

If someone feels that my findings are totally rash and that the HS51 should have performed better than it did, then shoot you opinions, my HS51 calibration was the best i could pull out of the unit, it was noticeably better than out of the box, but somehow I fill that there is no way anyone could sell a pj with that bad a black level, something could very well be wrong

-Gary
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